FishNJ 2 Posted January 5, 2012 Received my CTR today and wanted to get it pinned immediately. After about 5 minutes of examining the best place to pin it, I thought that I might be able to pin it without having to drill into the buffer tube. I disassembled the stock to see how the locking mechanism worked. I decided to install a 1/4" x 3/4" solid steel dowel pin in place of the spring that maintains the pressure on the pin that holds the stock in position. The dowel pin is held in place by the same roll pin that normally holds the spring in place. The end result is that you cannot squeeze down the adjustment lever to move the stock. No drilling required, and the stock is now fixed in position. Like pinning any adjustable stock, it is reversible if you were to intentionally disassemble by removing the pin. This method reaches the same end without any permanent damage/drilling to the stock or buffer tube. This method should also work with the MOE and ACS stocks, as they appear to utilize the same mechanism. Here is exactly what I did: 1) Remove Friction Lock latch by tapping out the roll pin. Remove latch by pulling straight down. 2) Remove the roll pin holding the adjustment pin assembly together. Use caution as the spring inside the mechanism will launch out once the pin is removed. 3) Verify that the stock is in the desired position prior. 4) Remove the spring, and replace with 1/4" x 3/4" dowel pin. Make sure the dowel pin nests into the notch in the cross pin that the adjustment lever pushes on. 5) Re-install roll pin to hold assembly in place. 6) Re-install friction lock assembly. I stole this pic from another site, but it gives a nice closeup of the mechanism to help with the description above. Hope this helps someone else out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted January 5, 2012 Nice. Ill be picking up a MOE Stock soon and will use this info! thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 5, 2012 My humble opinion is that this will not pass muster. 2 reasons. 1 it is reversable, not permanant. They look for a blind pin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FishNJ 2 Posted January 6, 2012 blind (welded) pin i've seen for muzzle brake. every stock i've seen shows a roll pin hammered into a through hole drilled through stock and buffer tube. every one of those is reversible as well... this is no more or less permanent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 6, 2012 The ones Ive seen done correctly are blind pinned into the buffer tube. This is "considered" permenant. Rearanging the parts is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joelk 61 Posted January 6, 2012 The ones Ive seen done correctly are blind pinned into the buffer tube. This is "considered" permenant. Rearanging the parts is not. Not to say what is or is not legal Shane, but do you have anything to support your statement? As far as I know neither the NJSP, nor the ATF, has ever specified how to, and/or, if there is a legal way to pin a stock. I am not trying to be a pain in the a**, but looking to see if anyone has some definite info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 6, 2012 Only direct verbal discussion with State police div of firearms investigation unit.... As usual, no clearly defined NJ statute or guide to make sure NJ doesnt manufacture criminals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IS45 1 Posted January 7, 2012 blind (welded) pin i've seen for muzzle brake. every stock i've seen shows a roll pin hammered into a through hole drilled through stock and buffer tube. every one of those is reversible as well... this is no more or less permanent. S&W & Stag-arms,block stocks with blind roll pin. On my S&W M&P15-22 to reverse,I have to drill pin out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 just as anything else that is not clearly defined.. you have to ask the simple question... does the law define a altered collapsible stock? if not then it must be taken at face value.. when evaluated.. does the stock collapse telescope or fold.. if it does not.. then it is not what the law defines as a prohibited feature.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 and just to ad.. for what it is worth... the "permanent" fixed stock from my DPMS is not not fixed on my AR15.. sure it was pinned.. sure it had a few drops of epoxy.. but they were easily persuaded off the gun.. and it telescopes just fine (PA gun..) so permanent for fixed stock does not appear to be a factor.. as that was off a NJ legal rifle.. one last thing.. be dam sure that mod will not come loose.. fall out.. etc... because if it somehow becomes adjustable at any point.. you are at that moment in possession of an illegal rifle.. and depending on who notices.. and where it is at.. it COULD be a problem.. I PREFER the mentioned blind pin method.. but I do not feel anything that nets a fixed stock illegal.. as long as you can not just alter it with your hands.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 Lets be clear here. I think MANY things can be won in court. However, I would much rather stay out of court! And so knowing the key elemment they look for is a blind pin....thats what I give em. Its my opinion that many do not realise that all these regs were simply poorly written legislation created by those simply looking for common denominators to ban "black rifles". They simply didnt realise that it would be so easily side stepped. Well keep in mind a lot of these people are still around in NJ govt and the intention was to keep black rifles out of NJ! But I often wonder if the poor legislation wasnt so poor and black rifles were still persona non grata, that there would have been enough of a movement to overturn this nonsense altogether. Because we have all found our ways around the nonsense, we tolerate it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 I could machine an entire ar from bar stock if I were so inclined, so what does a pin represent to me as far as permannency? Nothing. But it doesnt matter what it means to me, it matters what it means to those taking a look at the legality of what I possess...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 Lets be clear here. I think MANY things can be won in court. However, I would much rather stay out of court! And so knowing the key elemment they look for is a blind pin....thats what I give em. Its my opinion that many do not realise that all these regs were simply poorly written legislation created by those simply looking for common denominators to ban "black rifles". They simply didnt realise that it would be so easily side stepped. Well keep in mind a lot of these people are still around in NJ govt and the intention was to keep black rifles out of NJ! But I often wonder if the poor legislation wasnt so poor and black rifles were still persona non grata, that there would have been enough of a movement to overturn this nonsense altogether. Because we have all found our ways around the nonsense, we tolerate it if there is something in LAW written stating blind pin.. then I agree.. if someone "told you that" then it is honestly useless.. with all due respect of course.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 I could machine an entire ar from bar stock if I were so inclined, so what does a pin represent to me as far as permannency? Nothing. But it doesnt matter what it means to me, it matters what it means to those taking a look at the legality of what I possess...... does the stock telescope? NO does the stock fold? NO unless there is LAW adding to that criteria... anything else is moot.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caine 147 Posted January 7, 2012 Does anyone have a picture of a "blind pinned" stock? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 Does anyone have a picture of a "blind pinned" stock? any typical adjustable stock that has been made NJ legal.. a hole.. not all the way through.. with a pin hammered through.. my DPMS had 2 pins.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 Well, there is no law stating that a muzzle brake needs to be blind pinned and welded either. Yet that is what everyone does because it is viewed as the standard even though it exists no where in NJ statute or administrative code...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caine 147 Posted January 7, 2012 any typical adjustable stock that has been made NJ legal.. a hole.. not all the way through.. with a pin hammered through.. my DPMS had 2 pins.. That's what I figured. Thx ETA: My MOE stock is apparently "blind pinned"... I just didn't know it was called that as I usually see the term when talking about muzzle devices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 "does the stock telescope? NO does the stock fold? NO unless there is LAW adding to that criteria... anything else is moot.." Again your missing the point. Will you win in court? Maybe. Why roll the dice. LE looks for a blind pin........... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 Well, there is no law stating that a muzzle brake needs to be blind pinned and welded either. Yet that is what everyone does because it is viewed as the standard even though it exists no where in NJ statute or administrative code...... but there is a logical precedent.. in NJ you can not have a flash hider OR barrel threaded to accept one.. the logic is a pinned brake is OK is because the ATF considers a pinned and welded brake a part of the barrel.. so making the brake a permanent part of the barrel negates the threads underneath of the brake.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 "does the stock telescope? NO does the stock fold? NO unless there is LAW adding to that criteria... anything else is moot.." Again your missing the point. Will you win in court? Maybe. Why roll the dice. LE looks for a blind pin........... because the LAW does not mention anything about blind pins.. and I take issue with following laws that do not exist.. how does following a law.. that does not exist make you any safer? that is the issue I have with all this.. I would personally blind pin it.. but that is because it is what I am used to.. and I have a bag of pins somewhere in my tool box.. BUT I do it because I am used to it and have the materials.. NOT because it is a "law" I totally respect your opinion.. but am TOTALLY against giving information that is NOT accurate.. and the law does not state anything about blind pinning.. if it did.. I would whole heartedly agree with you.. like I said.. I respect your opinion.. and it is NOTHING personal.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 That's what I figured. Thx ETA: My MOE stock is apparently "blind pinned"... I just didn't know it was called that as I usually see the term when talking about muzzle devices. yup that is exactly how my DPMS was.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 I think that you are either misinterpreting me or misunderstanding me. Im not claiming that a blind pin is the law. What I am saying is that those here to inforce the law, many of which have recieved their opinion or direction from the state police firearms division investigators, they advise to look for the blind pin. This was straight from them. So it does indeed, in my opinion, make you safer in terms of avoiding legal entanglement. Can you win in court if you crazy glued your entire stock together? Quite possibly. But why end up in court. How would it look to a jury if the prosecution showed manufacturer after manufacturer that uses a blind pin compared to a reassembly. The fact of the matter is that part of the conversation I had in mind was similer to what the OP has done. It was regarding my SCAR stock. I said that I could lathe turn a solid backbone to replace the mechanisms inside the scar stock. The answer was, "they will look for the blind pin, and it wont qualify as non reversable which is what we advise to LE and the courts...... and so, inside my SCAR stock is a blind pin.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 ps. respectfull debate is never a problem for me I do not take a disagreement personally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FishNJ 2 Posted January 7, 2012 Caine, on 06 January 2012 - 08:48 PM, said: That's what I figured. Thx ETA: My MOE stock is apparently "blind pinned"... I just didn't know it was called that as I usually see the term when talking about muzzle devices. For anyone with a few simple tools and the motivation, this is just as reversible (or irreversible) as the method i've described. You have to want to remove the pin to adjust it. If you want to, it can be done. If you dont put a reasonable amount of effort into it, its not going anywhere. No epoxy. Not blind. Just drilled and pinned. By no means permanent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caine 147 Posted January 7, 2012 I agree - it is reversible with the right tools. Which is why I've never understood how any of the commonly accepted methods of pinning a stock are considered "permanent". Since taking that picture almost 2 years ago, I've put epoxy over the pins just to make it a little more "permanent". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 give them an inch.. and they will take a mile.. I will continue to follow the law.. and I will continue to recommend such.. and not a hair more.. they can look for 500 24k gold solid rivets.. but unless the stock can fold or telescope.. it is legal per the literal writing of the law.. and you are right.. in court you would be cleared.. but to be honest.. I doubt a prosecutor would even pursue that.. what are you going to charge them with? a stock that can't collapse but might be able to collapse if you modified it? you can't charge someone for violating AWB if they do not have an AW as defined by law.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 Why even focus on the pin? I could swap the stock to a non pinned one in 2 minutes! The boiled down point is simply perception is the reality in this case IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted January 7, 2012 Vlad, I guess I just dont trust this state to come away with a logical position on anything firearms related. I have no trust and therefore will do all I can to stay out of their cross hairs until I get parolled to free America.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 Vlad, I guess I just dont trust this state to come away with a logical position on anything firearms related. I have no trust and therefore will do all I can to stay out of their cross hairs until I get parolled to free America.... I totally understand your point.. I would personally blind pin.. I just don't see it as any safer from a literal legal standpoint..... in fact to be blunt.. my DPMS pins came out SCARY easy... I think the Magpul method posted here is MORE of a pain in the a** to reverse... I was able to slide a very tin pick in the pin.. wiggle a little.. and then jam in the pick.. wiggle a little more.. and slide right out.. had they not glued it also I would at that point be left with an adjustable stock.. the method posted here is MORE of a pain in the a**.. you need to like take it apart.. and then put it back together.. lol I often wonder if clarity of NJ law would help or hurt.. sometimes I think the lack of clarity is better for all involved.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites