Hollow point transportation

[vjf915 456]

About a week ago, a couple members (myself included) met up at our local Starbucks for a meet and greet, simply to put a face to the usernames we see on the board. At one point, we were discussing the transportation of hollow point ammo, and that it's one of the only charges that stuck to Brian Aitken. The reason he was stuck with the charge is that although it's legal to transport firearms, specifically handguns, from an old place of residence to a new place of residence, there's no exemption within the law that allows that same transportation for hollow point ammo.

 

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

 

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;

2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;

3.A person going directly to a target range, and;

4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions.

 

Let's assume that someone has A LOT of hollow point ammo that they don't want to sell, or shoot, before moving to their new place of residence. Why not simply pack them up in their car (along with everything else they're transporting between residences), drive to a range, and then drive to their new place of residence? There's nothing in the statute that says you need to SHOOT the hollow points at the range, belong to the range, or even shoot at all. Simply drive from your old place of residence to the parking lot of a range, maybe even stop in and talk to the guys for a couple minutes, walk out, and drive to your new place of residence.

 

 

So...you get pulled over on your way from your old residence to the range and by some unfortunate events, your car gets searched: You're driving from your place of residence, where it's legal to own hollow point ammo, to a range, where it's legal to transport hollow point ammo to. Same goes for if you get pulled over on your way from the range to your new place of residence. Just make sure that if your drivers license has your old place of residence, you have some kind of paperwork on you that proves you own the new place of residence.

 

Feel free to poke holes if you see any.

[Dan 177]

IMO , no need. You can go from one dwelling or residence to another while moving under 2C:39-6 exemptions.

 

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

[vjf915 456]

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business,between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

What you just listed is for firearms, not hollow point ammo.

[njJoniGuy 2,133]

Dan, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

But it probably counts less than the opinion of the Aitken appeals court judge.

He ruled that there was NO EXEMPTION in the statute that applies to HOLLOW POINTS (not handguns, mind you) when transporting while moving from one residence to another.

Stick to your guns (bad pun intended) and you too, like Brian Aitken, can be a felon for life!

 

VJF: Sounds like a workable workaround to me! Thanks for brainstorming it.

[Dan 177]

Ah gotcha, subsection f. So your work around is the only viable way apparently.

[PK90 3,573]

A deal was struck behind the scenes in the BA case. The guy broke the mag law and the transport law. The HP charge was a scapegoat.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

A deal was struck behind the scenes in the BA case. The guy broke the mag law and the transport law. The HP charge was a scapegoat.

 

Paul, I don't think that's the case. If a deal had been struck, they probably would not have been able to appeal it - and AFAIK, it is still being appealed. A pardon doesn't give you a clean record and that's what BA wants.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I think the best rule of thumb for transport of HP ammo in NJ is to think of them as little guns and transport them the same way you would a handgun and only transport per the exemption. Write or wrong I think that was the best description I heard here about their transport and the one with the least chance to get you jammed up in the 1 in a million chance of being caught with them.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I think the best rule of thumb for transport of HP ammo in NJ is to think of them as little guns and transport them the same way you would a handgun and only transport per the exemption. Write or wrong I think that was the best description I heard here about their transport and the one with the least chance to get you jammed up in the 1 in a million chance of being caught with them.

 

That may be true, but the whole gist of the OP is that the courts ruled that there is no exemption for transporting HP ammo from one residence to another - as there is for handguns. BA's lawyer argued that the exmption for firearm transport implied ammunition also, and was shot down (if you'll pardon the pun) by the judge.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Dan 177]

chance to get you jammed up in the 1 in a million chance of being caught with them.

 

Seems most of our gun laws are like this. As I said it before, discretion is key, as anytime you leave your home with a gun or hollow points, you are in the quantum flux of both being legal and illegal until observed by a court of law, where your status will settle into one state or another.

 

VJF is on to something here, as the hollow point exemption indicates activities in subsection f. of 2C:39-6 Exemptions specifically. There is nothing about moving from one residence to another in subsection f. , it is only in e. (I made that same mistake above). So to better your odds in court IF you ever got into that situation... would be to go to the range from one residence, then leave the range and go home to the other residence. That would be following the exempted activities in subsection f.

[LorenzoS 100]

I think the best rule of thumb for transport of HP ammo in NJ is to think of them as little guns and transport them the same way you would a handgun and only transport per the exemption.

 

Not quite, and this is the gotcha in the Aitken hollowpoint conviction. There is an exemption for transporting a firearm from one residence to another. But when you read the hollowpoint transport rules, there is NO exemption for transporting hollowpoints between residences. Another example of the devil really being in the details in NJ gun law.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Not quite, and this is the gotcha in the Aitken hollowpoint conviction. There is an exemption for transporting a firearm from one residence to another. But when you read the hollowpoint transport rules, there is NO exemption for transporting hollowpoints between residences. Another example of the devil really being in the details in NJ gun law.

 

I know, it's just nuts and I agree as well as 99.99999999999% of the other NJ Gun Laws are crap..

 

Maybe you can drive from one residence to the range, and then from the range to your other residence..

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Why not just go with something like Hornady Critical Defense or similar ammo with a polymer tip, which the NJSP has ruled is NOT a hollow point, and avoid the whole issue?

[woodentoe 14]

Why not just go with something like Hornady Critical Defense or similar ammo with a polymer tip, which the NJSP has ruled is NOT a hollow point, and avoid the whole issue?

 

You can do this. But Critical Defense is expensive and SD is not the only reason to buy hollowpoints. I got a good deal on bulk hollow points and use them for range fun. I may buy Critical Defense to keep in my HD gun when i'm home, but I'm not banging boxes of them at the range. If I buy in bulk, isn't it silly that I can't transport my ammo to a new residence?

[vjf915 456]

Why not just go with something like Hornady Critical Defense or similar ammo with a polymer tip, which the NJSP has ruled is NOT a hollow point, and avoid the whole issue?

 

Why not move out of state and avoid the whole issue? Not everyone has that luxury.

[voyager9 3,439]

Let's assume that someone has A LOT of hollow point ammo that they don't want to sell, or shoot, before moving to their new place of residence. Why not simply pack them up in their car (along with everything else they're transporting between residences), drive to a range, and then drive to their new place of residence?

 

Feel free to poke holes if you see any.

 

I'm new, and certainly not anything when it comes to interpreting NJ's gun statutes but..

 

The only hole I could see is that the definition of 'residence' changes during the trip. Leave Residence1 to Range then to Residence2 where R1 != R2. I don't know how its worded but wouldn't be surprised if they tie it to your residence as defined on your Drivers License or FID.

 

You would probably need some selective proof of residence documentation that you'd use depending on which leg of the trip you were on... FID/DL for the first leg, and a new cable bill for the second.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Why not just go with something like Hornady Critical Defense or similar ammo with a polymer tip, which the NJSP has ruled is NOT a hollow point, and avoid the whole issue?

 

That opinion, was rendered to the NJSP on 9/11/2009, by the AFTE. That pre-dates the Aitken decision by a considerable margin. The judge's ruling really muddied the water in regard to what the statute actually covers. If you remember it states that hollowpoints and dum-dums are prohibited. The judges ruling said that any bullet that "expands more than usual" (whatever that is) is prohibited under the statute. While you may have some "wiggle room" with some types of ammunition, there is no question that EFMJ, Critical Defense, PowrBall and others of that type were designed specifically to expand "more than usual". We are no longer safe hiding behind AFTE's opinion.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Dan 177]

Yea Bob, I'd love to know what the court thinks is "usual" expansion. That obviously has to be defined before one can say something is "unusual". Then again this is a NJ court, so they can make it up as they go...

[Smokin .50 1,907]

This whole strict interpretation of the hollow point transportation rule boggles my mind! The way I read you guys is this:

 

I get a flat on the way to work, the amusement park, the ice cream stand, anything but enroute to my residence or one of the ranges I belong to, and pull-over to change a tire. Unaware that I didn't faithfully retrieve every last single .22 LR 32 gr. Federal HP that accidentally spilled into my trunk (from the 525-count bulk pack) one day 5 years ago, I discover a lose round rolling around under the spare tire when I change the bad one. If a Cop stops to see if I need help, I can get locked-up cause a single round rolled under the spare and the Cop saw it "in plain sight" before I get the bad tire into the trunk? Even if I don't have a gun in the vehicle, let alone one chambered for said round? CRAZY!

 

I don't know about you guys, but since I've been shooting, if I see a dud or a bent round at the range, I pick it up and put it in a plastic ziplock in my trunk for proper disposal later. Some of it is Ball, some not. Trying to do the right thing now makes me a Felon? Who here among us has never accidentally spilled ammo into their trunk? All we all Felons, just waiting to be jammed-up?

 

 

The way I read Number 1 above (NJSA 26:39-6f) for the HP ammo:

 

I'm a member of a recognized Rifle and Pistol Club THAT SENDS A ROSTER TO THE STATE POLICE, so therefore I have an EXEMPTION! The Statute doesn't say that ALL of the numbers have to be in effect at the same time, under all circumstances, so I believe I'm covered 24/7/365 to drive-around with my spilled HP .22's. So the way I read this is I'm covered, BUT those who are members of ranges that don't submit the list of names (not addresses, phone numbers) OR those on this forum who choose to not be a MEMBER of any range and just show-up to a commercial range to plink at paper (or whatever) ARE NOT COVERED by the exemption I just quoted (number 1)!

 

So until the laws get changed, maybe all of the tightwads better let go of some coin to join a range that SUBMITS THEIR ROSTER TO TRENTON, so they can all sleep at night?

 

Maybe I'm a wacko in my interpretation, but then again, maybe I'm NOT! So being a member of a range that SUBMITS THEIR ROSTER is a good thing!

 

 

One last thought:

 

This whole thing with Brian Aiken started when his own Mother called him into the Cops, because she was worried about him offing himself. So from all of US, thanks Mom!

[vjf915 456]

I'm new, and certainly not anything when it comes to interpreting NJ's gun statutes but..

 

The only hole I could see is that the definition of 'residence' changes during the trip. Leave Residence1 to Range then to Residence2 where R1 != R2. I don't know how its worded but wouldn't be surprised if they tie it to your residence as defined on your Drivers License or FID.

 

You would probably need some selective proof of residence documentation that you'd use depending on which leg of the trip you were on... FID/DL for the first leg, and a new cable bill for the second.

So...you get pulled over on your way from your old residence to the range and by some unfortunate events, your car gets searched: You're driving from your place of residence, where it's legal to own hollow point ammo, to a range, where it's legal to transport hollow point ammo to. Same goes for if you get pulled over on your way from the range to your new place of residence. Just make sure that if your drivers license has your old place of residence, you have some kind of paperwork on you that proves you own the new place of residence.

 

Feel free to poke holes if you see any.

 

Already covered good sir. Please keep those wheels turning, it's great to see thinking like this in new members!!

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Smokin' 50: - There is an error in the OP which has lead you to believe that you are exempt - as far as transport of hollowpoint or like, ammunition. The cite given there, which should read 2C:39-6f (not 26:39-6f), does not deal with exceptions for ammo. 2C:39-6f enumerates exceptions for 2C:39-5 which is "Unlawful Possession of Weapons".

 

2C:39-3f is the statute that makes possession "hollow nose and dum-dum" bullets illegal.

 

2C:39-3g(2)a - lists the exceptions for ammunition transport that apply to civilians. Belonging to a registered club does not cover you outside the exceptions listed. Nor is there an exception for travel between residences, as noted by the ruling judge in the BA case.

 

One silver-lining is that in reading the statute there is language in there that would be a defense against the scenario you describe - that language says that you must "knowingly" possess the ammunition for it to be illegal. You would not "knowingly" be in possession of that spilled round that rolled under your spare tire, so rest easy.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

That opinion, was rendered to the NJSP on 9/11/2009, by the AFTE. That pre-dates the Aitken decision by a considerable margin. The judge's ruling really muddied the water in regard to what the statute actually covers. If you remember it states that hollowpoints and dum-dums are prohibited. The judges ruling said that any bullet that "expands more than usual" (whatever that is) is prohibited under the statute. While you may have some "wiggle room" with some types of ammunition, there is no question that EFMJ, Critical Defense, PowrBall and others of that type were designed specifically to expand "more than usual". We are no longer safe hiding behind AFTE's opinion.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Bob, good explanation. Thanks for that. I didn't realize that the NJSP position pre-dated the Aitkin decision. Also, even though I've learned a lot on this forum, I'm still fairly new to all this (about a year), and in my naivete, I assumed that hollow point = SD ammo. Thanks woodentoe for explaining that that is not always the case.

[vjf915 456]

which should read 2C:39-6f (not 26:39-6f)

My bad, I copy and pasted that portion from NJSP's site: http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

 

I fixed the original post though.

One silver-lining is that in reading the statute there is language in there that would be a defense against the scenario you describe - that language says that you must "knowingly" possess the ammunition for it to be illegal. You would not "knowingly" be in possession of that spilled round that rolled under your spare tire, so rest easy.

This. Without intent, there is no crime.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

My bad, I copy and pasted that portion from NJSP's site: http://www.njsp.org/...ire_hollow.html

 

I fixed the original post though.

 

Still incorrect. 2C:39-6f lists the exceptions for illegal weapon possession and has nothing to do with ammunition - hollowpoint or otherwise.

 

The relevant statutes are:

2C:39-3f - which states that possession of hollowpoints etc is a crime

 

and

 

2C:39-3g(2)a - which lists the exceptions for ammunition transport, relevant to civilians.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Bob,

 

I tried looking it up, both here on the Laws pinned "pasty" and the link in the previous post from the AG's Office and I'm still a little confused. Could you please give us all a hot link to the latest exemption/exceptions law that you're quoting? Thanks!

 

And as we all know, EVERYTHING in NJ is illegal, firearms-wise, and our use of it, sporting or otherwise, exists ONLY through EXEMPTIONS or EXCEPTIONS. They say that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but in NJ the rules keep changing!

 

Dave

[vjf915 456]

I'm thoroughly confused. Dammit, I thought I was doing a good job

[PK90 3,573]

Is this issue really a big deal? How often does one move? If it ever becomes an issue, just ship the HPs to yourself at your new residence.

[RecessedFilter 222]

Is this issue really a big deal? How often does one move? If it ever becomes an issue, just ship the HPs to yourself at your new residence.

 

This.

 

I'm not sure why topics of these sorts get beaten around so much. Sure you can speak hypotheticals all day but in the end, just go the easy route.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=40041640&Depth=4&TD=WRAP&advquery=2C%3a39-1%20%20Definitions&headingswithhits=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&rank=&record={1A38}&softpage=Doc_Frame_Pg42&wordsaroundhits=2&x=34&y=12&zz=

[Smokin .50 1,907]

This. I'm not sure why topics of these sorts get beaten around so much. Sure you can speak hypotheticals all day but in the end, just go the easy route.

 

The "easy route" for me is to just leave a half-used box of .22's in my trunk, so it's always there when I need it. Right next to the WD-40, the D-Lead Wipes, the paper towels, the hoppes gun oil, the staple gun, targets, binnoculars, gloves, earmuffs, shotgun vest, velcro gun belts for USPSA, spoting scope, tripod, emergency tool kit and oh yea, the spare tire, lol!