msg73 1 Posted September 4, 2012 Just wanted to get some clarity on what's considered the legal way of limiting mags in NJ. Couple examples come to mind: 1) NJ Legal M&P 9mm mags are S&W's standard 17 round mags with some extra coils in the mag spring to limit to 15 rounds. 2) M&P22 10 round mags are just the 12 round mags with a plastic collar on the base, which can be easily removed to make them 12 rounders. While in example 2, both mags are NJ legal, it's more of an example of what manufacturs do to limit mags. I thought they had to be 'permanent'? If so, what's considered permanent in NJ? Edit: removed 'HiCap' from the title as to not 'confuse the facts'...because it makes a world of difference to the relevance of the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
intercooler 41 Posted September 4, 2012 First off, they are not "high cap" magazines. They are STANDARD capacity magazines. We here in NJ can only have REDUCED capacity magazines. Please don't confuse the facts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZOMBIE 19 Posted September 4, 2012 you can have 12 round mags in jersey... its over 15 that you will be giving some free time to the state Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LorenzoS 100 Posted September 4, 2012 New Jersey's capacity limit is 15 rounds. Smith & Wesson sell a factory 15 round magazine for the 9mm M&P. Move along, these are not the droids you are looking for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RubberBullets 65 Posted September 4, 2012 New Jersey's capacity limit is 15 rounds. Smith & Wesson sell a factory 15 round magazine for the 9mm M&P. Move along, these are not the droids you are looking for. He was using it as an example. And there are pinned/blocked 17rnd M&P9 mags that are sold that arent factory (yes im well aware 15 rnders are sold by the OEM). I believe the question was geared more towards the how and not the what. Permanently altered to me is something that cannot be easily removed/replaced without the use of tools (drill and bit) a removable base plate to remove the block doesnt seem to fit the bill. That's like super gluing a muzzle break on saying its permanent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tactical Turtle 11 Posted September 4, 2012 I've seen ar mags have a polymer block in the bottom and the end plate pinned and then appoxied. Ivy seen metal mags that had a piece of sheet metal bent and riveted to the side. Also have seen wooden Dowells and other blocks or spacers used to limit mag capacity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
msg73 1 Posted September 4, 2012 He was using it as an example. And there are pinned/blocked 17rnd M&P9 mags that are sold that arent factory (yes im well aware 15 rnders are sold by the OEM). I believe the question was geared more towards the how and not the what. You got the point...they were just examples of what I've seen done to reduce mag capacity. Permanently altered to me is something that cannot be easily removed/replaced without the use of tools (drill and bit) a removable base plate to remove the block doesnt seem to fit the bill. That's like super gluing a muzzle break on saying its permanent What gets me is the M&P22 factory 10 round mags. It takes seconds to remove the baseplate and the limiting collar to make them 12 rounders. I know they are both legal in NJ but using it as an example of what S&W did. I assume to comply with states that have a 10 round limit like NY, but is not permanent (maybe NY laws are different). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
msg73 1 Posted September 4, 2012 Also have seen wooden Dowells and other blocks or spacers used to limit mag capacity. Are these factory/aftermarket mags being sold to NJ residents? If so, it seem that companies are blocking and selling mags to reduced capacity states like NJ but doesn't seem to be the legal way to do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tactical Turtle 11 Posted September 4, 2012 They are legal because the glue base plate on. I guess if u had the will power to try to take out the role pin in the side and then argue with epoxy u can't make them 30. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted September 4, 2012 NJS 2C:39-1y "Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. NJS 2C:39-3j Any person who knowingly has in his possession a large capacity ammunition magazine is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree unless the person has registered an assault firearm pursuant to section 11 of P.L.1990, c.32 (C.2C:58-12) and the magazine is maintained and used in connection with participation in competitive shooting matches sanctioned by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United States Department of the Army. NJAC 13:54-1.2 "Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daedalus 19 Posted September 4, 2012 Not too surprisingly we find the Executive Branch (Attorney General) of the state government is interpreting laws created by the Legislative Branch. A review of the Constitution of the State of NJ reveals only the Judicial Branch (courts) may interpret law. Oh, wait a second, this is New Jersey.... Never mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted September 5, 2012 So far to my knowledge, there have been no cases heard in NJ around possession of high cap mags when in fact the mag was blocked by one way or another. The NJAC interprets the statute that a "temporary" block would still define the mag as a high cap mag. The actual statute makes no such definition clear. It would have to be argued in court whether the person broke the law or not Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Candide 0 Posted September 5, 2012 So far to my knowledge, there have been no cases heard in NJ around possession of high cap mags when in fact the mag was blocked by one way or another. The NJAC interprets the statute that a "temporary" block would still define the mag as a high cap mag. The actual statute makes no such definition clear. It would have to be argued in court whether the person broke the law or not Isn't this the statute? It seems clear to me that a temporary block would still define it as a high cap mag NJAC 13:54-1.2 "Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halbautomatisch 60 Posted September 5, 2012 NO, that's the AG's interpretation of the statues (2C) The Administrative Code (Title 13) is written by the AG's office, it was never passed by the legislature or signed into law by a Governor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Candide 0 Posted September 5, 2012 NO, that's the AG's interpretation of the statues (2C) The Administrative Code (Title 13) is written by the AG's office, it was never passed by the legislature or signed into law by a Govenor. So what is the point of administrative code? Can you be arrested, jailed, or fined due to administrative code? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daedalus 19 Posted September 5, 2012 NO, that's the AG's interpretation of the statues (2C) The Administrative Code (Title 13) is written by the AG's office, it was never passed by the legislature or signed into law by a Govenor. Wow - that is a total shocker to me! This is even worse than it appears on the surface. The Executive Branch created the administrative rule on its own, published it and it became effective without input from the Legislature and then is interpreted by the Same Executive Branch, the AG. That provides the Executive Branch free rein (or reign it appears) to do whatever they damn well please. The citizens, legislature and judiciary have no say in their pronouncements. Corrupt totalitarian regimes in third world countries have nothing over the State of NJ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted September 5, 2012 So what is the point of administrative code? Can you be arrested, jailed, or fined due to administrative code? The NJAC is there to provide "guidelines" to prosecutors and LE when it comes to an "interpretation" of the laws on the books. In other words, it is what they strongly feel that they can prove in court as to what the actual statute can be interpreted and eforced as. Sometimes there is case-law backing up their guidelines, such as the AWB evil feature list and the MAK 90 case. Other times, its just making their intentions clear that they will "try" to prosecute based on xyz interpretations of the statutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TK421 2 Posted September 5, 2012 What most people fail to remember here, including the AG that penned the clarification shown above on Jon Corzine's second day in office as New Jersey's governor BTW, is that the New Jersey AW ban was signed into law in 1990, a full four years prior to the federal assault weapon ban. The significance of which is that if you legally owned say a Glock 17 on May 29th 1990; on May 30th you were now a felon because the magazines you legally owned the day before were banned. At the time there was no such thing as a 10 round Glock 17 magazine to even be purchased, they didn’t appear until the Clinton ban took effect in September 1994 more than four years later. Gun owners attempting to comply with the new law inundated the NJ State police with questions on how to comply and were repeated told at the time that they could insert a block into the magazine to limit it to 15 rounds and as long as the magazine held no more than 15 rounds AT THE TIME OF INSPECTION they were OK. So for the new AG to issue this statement on January 18th 2006, after almost 16 years of "blocked at the time of inspection" being the standard, this is nothing more than libtard politics in action. To my knowledge this has not yet been challenged by anyone in court. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UnrestrictedEnthusiastInVA 0 Posted September 5, 2012 I was just coming to ask a question similar to the OP's post. If SW limits their M&P mag with a pin, would it be possible to limit a Ruger 10/22 25rd magazine to 15rounds? I'm looking into a 10/22 as a first rifle, and I LOVE the extended mag look, but can't have it unless it's 15rounds, and right now I can't find anyone who produces such size magazines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halbautomatisch 60 Posted September 6, 2012 I was just coming to ask a question similar to the OP's post. If SW limits their M&P mag with a pin, would it be possible to limit a Ruger 10/22 25rd magazine to 15rounds? I'm looking into a 10/22 as a first rifle, and I LOVE the extended mag look, but can't have it unless it's 15rounds, and right now I can't find anyone who produces such size magazines. The only way you're going to get that is buy one in PA or any other free state and modify it yourself while you're still on that side of the river, how you're going to do that I'm not sure. It's possible you might find a NJ FFL who can do the modification for you, but plastic mags are hard to "permanently" modify. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
msg73 1 Posted September 10, 2012 There's a guy online (rrages) that sells 15 round M&P15-22 mags. Looks like he uses the factory 25rd mags and drills a small hole on one side, inserts a pin to limit to 15rds and fills the hole with epoxy. Also, many multi-position AR type stocks are pinned in a similar way. I've read it's important to not have the hole drilled all the way through as to not be able to push it out with a punch...making them 'permanent' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
msg73 1 Posted September 10, 2012 I'm really interested to know if the following would be considered legal. I have a friend that has a house in PA and can get mags shipped there and work on them. - Fabricate base pad retainer plates out of carbon fiber and drill a hole where the nub would be to secure the base pad - Insert a round head machine screw (the screw head serves as the nub to secure the base pad) through the carbon fiber base pad retainer - Place a metal tube of the appropriate length over the screw and epoxy it to the fabricated base pad retainer - Put some epoxy on the screw threads and screw on the nut to hold it all together - Not sure if this is necessary, but I could also solder the nut to the metal tube Now this seems like a more complicated version of the 'wooden dowel' method, but thought that since the metal limiting tube is screwed/epoxied/soldered to the base pad retainer that this would be considered 'permanent'. You could argue that this is not permanent as it could still be removed, but now you're removing a standard component of the mag (base pad retainer) making it not a complete/assembled mag. Does this make sense? I don't mind doing the work but don't want to waste my time in doing something that still wouldn't be considered legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExpendableRaj 1 Posted September 10, 2012 Corrupt totalitarian regimes in third world countries have nothing over the State of NJ! Seriously you think NJ is the only state where the AG runs rampant and does whatever he/she wants and makes up rules for their own interpretation? I got news for you, just as NJ does it with guns, other states do it with other political issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clintoon Eastwood 2 Posted September 10, 2012 That's like super gluing a muzzle break on saying its permanent I actually know somebody that did this using red loctite to keep his muzzle brake on his Ar. I told him I personally wouldn't do it because of the law. But I could be mistaken. Also he is the same guy that thinks its not legal to bring my firearms to Pa to use at my range. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henrym 19 Posted September 10, 2012 I actually know somebody that did this using red loctite to keep his muzzle brake on his Ar. I told him I personally wouldn't do it because of the law. But I could be mistaken. Also he is the same guy that thinks its not legal to bring my firearms to Pa to use at my range. Problem being, loctite releases under heat, and ar barrels get hot. You're right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExpendableRaj 1 Posted September 10, 2012 Just some quick info, Red Loctite melts at around 325-450 degrees farenheit according to the manufacturer. The barrel is likely getting much hotter than that during any sort of shooting session, not to mention the vibration acting as a sort of "impact wrench" to help work it off. I highly doubt that it's still holding the brake on, considering I've removed red-locked bolts before with just a little bit of heat from a propane torch. JB Weld does a little better as a threadlocker under heat but once again, I think the barrel produces enough heat and vibration to work it off as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,256 Posted September 12, 2012 Lock Tite makes a thread locker that's good to nearly 700 degrees. It aint cheap though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Candide 0 Posted September 12, 2012 Shooters in almost every other state are trying to get bigger mags and here in NJ we are stuck trying to make em smaller so we dont get arrested or to just be able to own the gun. Pathetic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
younggun93 5 Posted April 26, 2015 sorry to bring back a dead thread, but whats the consensus on these? http://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/products/magblock-kits/ar15-magblocks/15-round-magazine-limiters.html magblock + super glued floor plate + pinned through floor plate & mag block = nj legal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Polak 3 Posted April 27, 2015 sorry to bring back a dead thread, but whats the consensus on these? http://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/products/magblock-kits/ar15-magblocks/15-round-magazine-limiters.html magblock + super glued floor plate + pinned through floor plate & mag block = nj legal? If trying to reverse the process destroys the mag, it would be legal, but can not be done by you inside the state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites