Build an AR 15 in NJ... Legal?!

[alfer 0]

Newbie here. I understand the Gun Control Act of 1968 states: "Any UNLICENSED (that means FFL,) individual may BUILD a Rifle, Shotgun or Pistol (Type 1, NOT Type 2, which are NFA weapons,) provided it is for personal use, and not to be sold, transferred or re-assigned." SO... My understanding is that I should NOT be required to secure a Rifle, Shotgun Purchase Card IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY as long as I buy an 80% complete AR 15 RECEIVER, (NOT A WEAPON,) finish the receiver on a mill, and complete the weapon's construction with "PARTS" readily available on the internet. At no time would I be purchasing anything legally construed as a "FIREARM." WHY can't I get any of SIX NJ Licensed Attorneys that SPECIALIZE IN FIREARMS VIOLATIONS' CRIMINAL DEFENSE, whom I have phoned, requesting concurrence for the past two weeks, to answer me? They ALL say " let me research this, I'll get back," but haven't in more than two weeks!

[Krdshrk 3,878]

You would be in violation because finishing an 80% lower in this state would = manufacturing... and you'd need a special manufacturing license to do that.

 

Why not just get your FID?

[Wikkie2204 0]

I could be wrong but if you search the forum there's something about how it's illegal to finish an 80% lower receiver. One of the local guru's on the law will be able to chime in soon.

[Wikkie2204 0]

not to sound rude, but are you a prohibited person and that's why you are avoiding the process or just on principle?

[PK90 3,573]

Maybe he wants to save $50.

[A-Tech 8]

not to sound rude, but are you a prohibited person and that's why you are avoiding the process or just on principle?

 

It seems like an awful lot of work just to be able to finish machining the lower and build it yourself. Sounds like either the op doesn't want big bro to know about the gun, or he's restricted.

[alfer 0]

Wikkie 2204; I am not a prohibited person. I hold CCWs from Ohio, and Arizona, and am licensed to Instruct CCW Classes in as many states. To reply to Krdshrk, I believe any NJ regulations pertaining to "Manufacture" are addressing TYPE 2 (NFA) Weapons, and this is where I am seeking Licensed NJ Attorneys that specialize in Firearms Violations to chime in. I used to compete in 3-Gun and IPSC in Ohio with many LE and Federal Agents, but left all of my long guns in Ohio when I moved here because I don't want to shave off Bayonet lugs, Chop off Flash Hiders, and Replace all of my AR's Collapsable stocks. My only weapon that accompanied me here to NJ is my trusty SIG P245 CCW go-to sidearm.

[PK90 3,573]

...I believe any NJ regulations pertaining to "Manufacture" are addressing TYPE 2 (NFA) Weapons...

What makes you believe this? Read NJS 2C:58-1

[alfer 0]

Sorry, I didn't mean to evade the "WHY" aspect of building. No, I am not interested in saving $50, and I don't want to stay under the radar, I just don't see the need to get an FFL, just to do what I am LEGALLY allowed to do, per the GCA of '68! It's the principle! If the law permits me to build my own weapon, as long as I comply with all the build-restrictions, why shouldn't I be able to enjoy building my own, just for the enjoyment of shooting something I BUILT?!

[Krdshrk 3,878]

What makes you believe this? Read NJS 2C:58-1

Even better:

http://www.colddeadhands.com/docs/title2c_chapter58.pdf

[alfer 0]

Thank you KRDSHRK, I will look it up again, to be sure. It's been a while since I first began foraging the many pages of NJ Firearms Legislation, and I apologize that I don't have that answer at my fingertips, but I'll get back on that as soon as I find it. Meanwhile, there's a number of purveyors of "80% complete receivers," whom I've spoken to and through these discussions, I was informed that nothing in NJ Legislation contradicts the GCA of 68's position as pertains to Type 1 weapons. This is when I began running down the bunny trail of getting reliable, Legal advise form specialists in NJ Firearms Law... if it were that cut-and-dry, SIX NJ Atty's would have dismissed it offhand at the first conversation with each, no? These people that sell the incomplete receives tell me they've sold quite a few in NJ, and haven't received any feedback from Federal Prison thanking them for getting the customer arrested as felons... but again, that's why I'm here, also. Any attorneys on the forum?

[PK90 3,573]

Sorry, I didn't mean to evade the "WHY" aspect of building. No, I am not interested in saving $50, and I don't want to stay under the radar, I just don't see the need to get an FFL, just to do what I am LEGALLY allowed to do, per the GCA of '68! It's the principle! If the law permits me to build my own weapon, as long as I comply with all the build-restrictions, why shouldn't I be able to enjoy building my own, just for the enjoyment of shooting something I BUILT?!

 

Federal law allows manufacturing for personal use, but NJ law does not.

 

Federal law allows handgun ownership at 18, but NJ law says 21.

Federal law does not restrict "Assault Weapons" anymore, but NJ law does.

Etc, etc., etc.

[mipafox 438]

not to sound rude, but are you a prohibited person and that's why you are avoiding the process or just on principle?

 

Not to sound rude, but you sound like a rude busybody suspicious of fellow gun owners.

 

And "the process" is bs. That's one of the reasons I make some of my own firearms.

[alfer 0]

Thanks PK90, Im heading over to read the attachments you provided. On my way out (temporarily,) food for thought; The "NJ GUN LAWS" reference on this site contains excerpts of NJS 2C:58-1, which, in part depicts the list of "ASSAULT WEAPONS" to include "THE COLT AR15," AND "THE BUSHMASTER ASSAULT RIFLE," right?! So, how is it that every AR15 owned in the state of NJ is by definition "Substantially Identical" to these two "ASSAULT WEAPONS" yet, there are thousands of them legally owned in the State? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but people are convicted every day not by a "letter of the law" definition, but rather by what's called "CASE LAW." In other words, this is the way it's done... forget what it says in black and white! I just want to know how this blatant contradiction can exist? If every AR15 I see at the NJ Rifle and Pistol Shooting Club is NOT "Substantially Identical" to the COLT AR15, and the BUSHMASTER ASSAULT RIFLE, then how are all those shooters/owners getting away with this obvious violation of NJ Code?

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

"Substantially Identical" was held by the courts to be a matter of what we refer to as "Evil Features", thus if you have a pistol grip on your removeable-mag AR, you can't legally have a collapsing stock, bayonet lug, thread-accessible muzzle, or flash hider.

[woodentoe 14]

Thanks PK90, Im heading over to read the attachments you provided. On my way out (temporarily,) food for thought; The "NJ GUN LAWS" reference on this site contains excerpts of NJS 2C:58-1, which, in part depicts the list of "ASSAULT WEAPONS" to include "THE COLT AR15," AND "THE BUSHMASTER ASSAULT RIFLE," right?! So, how is it that every AR15 owned in the state of NJ is by definition "Substantially Identical" to these two "ASSAULT WEAPONS" yet, there are thousands of them legally owned in the State? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but people are convicted every day not by a "letter of the law" definition, but rather by what's called "CASE LAW." In other words, this is the way it's done... forget what it says in black and white! I just want to know how this blatant contradiction can exist? If every AR15 I see at the NJ Rifle and Pistol Shooting Club is NOT "Substantially Identical" to the COLT AR15, and the BUSHMASTER ASSAULT RIFLE, then how are all those shooters/owners getting away with this obvious violation of NJ Code?

 

 

They are NOT 'Substantially Identical' because Substantially Identical is DEFINED within the statute. Even if they APPEAR identical, the law dictates what Substantially Identical MEANS.

[alfer 0]

PK90, I just read the attachment you provided, may I quote:

"The superintendent shall prescribe standards and qualifications for the registration of manufacturers and wholesalers of firearms, for the protection of the public safety, health and welfare. He shall refuse to register any applicant for registration unless he is satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to engage in business as a manufacturer or wholesale dealer of firearms without any danger to the public safety, health or welfare."

EVERYTHING in this language addresses, and pertains to manufacturing "for distribution, wholesale, and sale," to the individual that is manufacturing weapons for that purpose and to that end! This is specifically why the GCA states; "for personal use." This is one place that gave me the idea that regulation of "Manufacture" was specifically to keep track of the trail of weapons from "build-to-use."As long as the weapon in question complies with all NJ "assault weapon limitations: Flash Hiders, Collapsable Stocks, Bayonet Lugs, and magazine capacity limits... AND is for personal use, I BELIEVE I'M NOT A FELON. However, BEFORE I build anything, I'm attempting to CONFIRM this by competent authority. I realize no legal advice is offered here.

[alfer 0]

Thanks njJoniGuy. O.K.... I kinda hada feelin' I was going to start down a bunny trail when I used that analogy about the issue of "Substantially Identical." And, here we are. What I wanted to convey, albeit, I obviously shot myself in the foot in the process, was that NJ Firearms Legislation is INTENTIONALLY VAQUE in may areas. AND that having lived here only 8 years, I have learned by personal experience that the courts operate with absolute impunity. (I would quote the recent release and exoneration of a NJ resident that was pardoned after being wrongfully convicted of a firearms violation, and sentenced to 7 years, then after mounting public outcry, was released after 3 years inside, all because his Judge "caught an attitude" and embarrassed the entire NJ Criminal Justice System.) BUT, that would start another bunny trail over possible inconsistencies over the details... don't wanna drag us all there. My point was simply this; I think I am permitted to build a NJ-Legal AR, for personal use only, without having to submit to either procuring a NJ Rifle and Shotgun Purchase Permit, OR getting an FFL first, and ONLY BECAUSE I LIVE IN NJ, I am being very cautious BEFORE I BUILD IT!

Not wanting to put too fine a point on it... If it were simple, cut-and-dry, why haven't I gotten an answer from all these NJ and Penn. Attorneys I have consulted? IF they are taking this long to "get it right," what hope do I have on my own?

[Qel Hoth 33]

My point was simply this; I think I am permitted to build a NJ-Legal AR, for personal use only, without having to submit to either procuring a NJ Rifle and Shotgun Purchase Permit, OR getting an FFL first, and ONLY BECAUSE I LIVE IN NJ, I am being very cautious BEFORE I BUILD IT!

Not wanting to put too fine a point on it... If it were simple, cut-and-dry, why haven't I gotten an answer from all these NJ and Penn. Attorneys I have consulted? IF they are taking this long to "get it right," what hope do I have on my own?

 

You would be incorrect in your thinking. You need to be a registered manufacturer to build (not assemble) an AR. With an 80% lower you are taking unfinished parts and manufacturing a finished firearm.

 

"Manufacturer" means any person who receives or obtains raw materials or parts and processes them

into firearms or finished parts of firearms, except a person who exclusively processes grips, stocks,

and other nonmetal parts of firearms. The term does not include a person who repairs existing

firearms or receives new and raw materials or parts solely for the repair of existing firearms.

 

http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf

[Kaiser7 33]

Not to sound rude, but you sound like a rude busybody suspicious of fellow gun owners.

 

And "the process" is bs. That's one of the reasons I make some of my own firearms.

 

The dude never did answer why he doesn't want to get his FID, It's fishy to me.

 

Just get your FID, because even though I believe the system is BS as well, you seem to be wanting to go through a lot of hoops to build an AR in a way that doesn't require you to have a NICS check.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was prohibited, or had bad intentions. The laws may be BS, but anyone who truly values their Second Amendment rights won't do anything that could be viewed in a negative way. They would fight for the laws to be changed. I totally have a bad vibe off this guy.

[woodentoe 14]

...or an anti trolling to get law abiding gun owners suggest means by which to circumvent the law. Not to be too cynical or suspicious, but that's the first thing I thought. Hope I'm mistaken.

[Soju 153]

What purpose would it serve for a prohibited person to ask about the legality of something if regardless of it, it would be illegal for him?

 

Since when did asking about the legality of something mean someone is suspicious or has bad intentions?

 

How come it is fishy for some to specifically look for and ask about information in order to FOLLOW the law?

 

Why should someone "just get an FID" when they fundamentally disagree with doing so?

[raz-0 1,259]

You can believe all you want. I don't see anything in the statutes' definition of a manufacturer that distinguishes between personal use and for resale. Federal law does.

 

Perhaps the lawyers don't get back to you because they don't feel they can make a buck billing you for the simple answer of 'no'.

 

Have people done it and not been caught? I'm sure it's happened. Did they broadcast their intention to do so on the Internet? No.

 

It's pretty simple to sort out. Do it and then go tell the state police about it. We'll see how the court case goes.

[Kaiser7 33]

...or an anti trolling to get law abiding gun owners suggest means by which to circumvent the law. Not to be too cynical or suspicious, but that's the first thing I thought. Hope I'm mistaken.

 

Exactly my thought.

[woodentoe 14]

I freely admit my own myopia. But it seems like am oddball inquiry to me.

[Soju 153]

I freely admit my own myopia. But it seems like am oddball inquiry to me.

 

Nobody commented on it being an oddball inquiry here...just a few weeks ago...

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/38699-80-lowers

[woodentoe 14]

Errrr. Ok. Didn't see that topic. But as I said I freely admit my own myopia.

[Kaiser7 33]

I didn't see that topic either, but I feel like that is a bad path to go down. God knows that our legislators would love to use this as a banner for a new bill (CLOSE ASSAULT WEAPON LOOP-HOLES!) or some jive, and they'd likely use it as a way to strengthen their plans to ban online sales of stuff.

[ExpendableRaj 1]

What's wrong with wanting to stay under the radar?

 

You know if you have a permit or ever bought something in this state, you're on "the list"