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9mm Hollow Point for Home Defense in NJ


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#31 kman

kman
  • LocationNorth New Jersey
  • Home Range:Easton Fish and Game, PA

Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

Read the NJ statute it restricts hollow point AND 'dum dum' ammunition. Basically anything that expands can be considered dum dum ammunition. That is why I stick to FMJ or regular flat or round nosed lead for revolvers. In essence NJ enacted the geneva convention on ammo in this state for ordinary citizens. If you use anything expanding you are going to get flack for it during your arraignment, trial, and in the media. The public and the jury doesn't care if it is legal or not, all most people in the jury pool know is what they learned watching Lethal Weapon which is that it is naughty stuff and isn't it illegal or something?

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#32 Nickjc

Nickjc

    Springfield Armory US Rifle, Cal. .30, M1

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  • 4,610 posts
  • LocationGlenwood, Vernon twshp, Sussex co.
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:23 PM

What exactly does Joe think they would charge one with for using HP instead of ball in his or her own home? Sure as hell can't charge unlawful possession and there is not statute dealing with use.


Dunno, I dont wanna speak for him, however I think his and/or the departments interpretation is that HP AMMO in CIVVI hands is illegal.

He and I go back and forth with this constantly...

I believe he feels that with over exuberant DA's and the availability of other types of HP variant ammo that can be used in NJ why take a chance....again...to each his own...
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Blah. BHP's are AWESOME.


#33 Qel Hoth

Qel Hoth
  • LocationCherry Hill
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:42 PM

Not a lawyer, but lethal force is lethal force. If its a good shoot the gun and ammo, so long as they are legal, are irrelevant. If its not a good shoot you're screwed anyway.

It's not like ball makes you any less dead than HP...
David

#34 DirtyDigz

DirtyDigz

Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

Another point to consider - even if you have a "good shoot" and have no criminal liability - if the perp doesn't die then you can expect to be a defendant in a civil suit for the perp's medical bills/pain & suffering, and you (or your counsel) will have the task of explaining to a jury of your peers why hollowpoints aren't evil instruments of maiming, purposefully chosen by you to inflict the most heinous suffering upon some mama's innocent baby.

#35 Trunk

Trunk

Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:13 PM

Another point to consider - even if you have a "good shoot" and have no criminal liability - if the perp doesn't die then you can expect to be a defendant in a civil suit for the perp's medical bills/pain & suffering, and you (or your counsel) will have the task of explaining to a jury of your peers why hollowpoints aren't evil instruments of maiming, purposefully chosen by you to inflict the most heinous suffering upon some mama's innocent baby.

That is a good point to consider. Although I'm confident that I could convince a jury that the plaintiff was more than 50% at fault, it certainly wouldn't be fun. That is one area where I think NJ needs serious reform.
The above post is for general discussion purposes only and is not, nor is it intended to be, legal advice. You should consult an attorney for advice regarding your individual situation.

#36 mcbethr

mcbethr
  • LocationCherry Hill
  • Home Range:Ft. Dix Range 14 / Firing Line Philadelphia

Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:25 PM

That is why I stick to FMJ or regular flat or round nosed lead for revolvers.


"Would you please tell the Jury what the Defendant was using?"
"He was using 9mm Full Metal Jacket 124 grain Winchester NATO."
"And can you tell me who primarily uses that ammunition."
"Well, the US Army for starters."
"So you are saying the defendant put war caliber ammunition in his pistol?"

... Like I said I'd rather have something on the box that says "Guardian Home Defense." Not criticizing, they can twist anything.
Unless we stand as one, we are just a bunch of guys screaming at the internet.

#37 Handyman

Handyman

Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:40 PM

Say you use hollow point because there is less wall penetration and less chance of injury to bystanders.

The fact that they will rip the gizzard out of a scumbag is just a beneficial side effect.

I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

-Matthew 10:34


#38 Metalflames

Metalflames
  • LocationGloucester County
  • Home Range:USANA MTC

Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:48 PM

Lets face it we are in NJ, the law mind as well say curl up in the fetal position urinate your jammies and wait for the police come to draw a chalk outline around you.
"Nobody needs a High capacity ammunition bullet magazine newspaper clip military style assault cannon".- Media

#39 Anselmo

Anselmo
  • Home Range:Range 14, Ready Aim Fire

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:07 PM

Lets face it we are in NJ, the law mind as well say curl up in the fetal position urinate your jammies and wait for the police come to draw a chalk outline around you.


The law says nothing of the sort. The law says you may use deadly force if it is required.

I hope everyone worries as much about their cholesterol and blood pressure as they do about what type of bullet to use to shoot a threatening intruder in your house.

#40 kahout

kahout
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:32 PM

Another point to consider - even if you have a "good shoot" and have no criminal liability - if the perp doesn't die then you can expect to be a defendant in a civil suit for the perp's medical bills/pain & suffering, and you (or your counsel) will have the task of explaining to a jury of your peers why hollowpoints aren't evil instruments of maiming, purposefully chosen by you to inflict the most heinous suffering upon some mama's innocent baby.

Then you certainly need to make sure you land enough rounds to get past that issue. Practice, practice, practice.

#41 kman

kman
  • LocationNorth New Jersey
  • Home Range:Easton Fish and Game, PA

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:49 PM

The other point that I wanted to make is just because there is no hollow point (like power ball self defense ammo for instance) doesn't make it fully legal to possess in nj outside your home like fmj ammo. If the ammo is designed to expand it will likely be considered to be dum dum rounds and a box of 20 in your car is 20 felony counts if you are not enroute to the range. Watch out there. Dont get pulled over with it. For that reason alone I dont touch it. Not saying you shouldn't, just saying what I decided after thinking it through.

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#42 kman

kman
  • LocationNorth New Jersey
  • Home Range:Easton Fish and Game, PA

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:52 PM

"Would you please tell the Jury what the Defendant was using?"
"He was using 9mm Full Metal Jacket 124 grain Winchester NATO."
"And can you tell me who primarily uses that ammunition."
"Well, the US Army for starters."
"So you are saying the defendant put war caliber ammunition in his pistol?"

... Like I said I'd rather have something on the box that says "Guardian Home Defense." Not criticizing, they can twist anything.


You are right! Although the response is FMJ is Geneva Convention compliant. Lefties love the Geneva Convention...

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#43 Metalflames

Metalflames
  • LocationGloucester County
  • Home Range:USANA MTC

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:56 PM

.

The law says nothing of the sort. The law says you may use deadly force if it is required. I hope everyone worries as much about their cholesterol and blood pressure as they do about what type of bullet to use to shoot a threatening intruder in your house.

Where does it say that? I was attacked in front of a building one day, long story short he was incapacitated quickly . I was detained and told I could go because the assailant CHOSE not to press charges.There where at least 8 strangers who saw what happened and supported my story. The officer told me although he would have done the same thing It could be illegal to defend myself. To me that tells me to roll over like a dog thanks to my state laws.
I agree though no need to play it safe with ammo if your life is in imminent danger.
"Nobody needs a High capacity ammunition bullet magazine newspaper clip military style assault cannon".- Media

#44 Anselmo

Anselmo
  • Home Range:Range 14, Ready Aim Fire

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:00 PM

The other point that I wanted to make is just because there is no hollow point (like power ball self defense ammo for instance) doesn't make it fully legal to possess in nj outside your home like fmj ammo. If the ammo is designed to expand it will likely be considered to be dum dum rounds and a box of 20 in your car is 20 felony counts if you are not enroute to the range. Watch out there. Dont get pulled over with it. For that reason alone I dont touch it. Not saying you shouldn't, just saying what I decided after thinking it through.

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There is a letter from NJSP that defines what is and isn't hollow point ammo. The law says hollow point, not expanding.

#45 Anselmo

Anselmo
  • Home Range:Range 14, Ready Aim Fire

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:05 PM

.Where does it say that? I was attacked in front of a building one day, long story short he was incapacitated quickly . I was detained and told I could go because the assailant CHOSE not to press charges.There where at least 8 strangers who saw what happened and supported my story. The officer told me although he would have done the same thing It could be illegal to defend myself. To me that tells me to roll over like a dog thanks to my state laws.
I agree though no need to play it safe with ammo if your life is in imminent danger.


It seems that if there is a fight that the victor is always assumed to the aggressor/criminal.

2C:3-4. Use of Force in Self-Protection. a. Use of force justifiable for protection of the person. Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 2C:3-9, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor reasonably believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

#46 Metalflames

Metalflames
  • LocationGloucester County
  • Home Range:USANA MTC

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:36 PM

Does it actually say deadly force somewhere? Not to start an argument but I dont recall ever seeing it.
"Nobody needs a High capacity ammunition bullet magazine newspaper clip military style assault cannon".- Media

#47 Metalflames

Metalflames
  • LocationGloucester County
  • Home Range:USANA MTC

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:41 PM

I take that back I found the statue. I must become more familiar with the wording now.
"Nobody needs a High capacity ammunition bullet magazine newspaper clip military style assault cannon".- Media

#48 Onthejob13

Onthejob13
  • LocationMercer/Burlington County Area

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:46 PM

Definitely 100% safe for HD

#49 chumo00

chumo00
  • LocationNJ
  • Home Range:Any suggestions?

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:50 PM

To clarify I am using Federal Classic 9mm Luger 115 Grain HI-SHOK Jacketd Hollow Point

#50 Handyman

Handyman

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

Sounds like it is time to start buying nerf bullets.

I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

-Matthew 10:34


#51 Blueskybob

Blueskybob
  • Home Range:Easton Fish and Game Association

Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:55 PM

Seems like we are :thsmiley_deadhorse: . Get out your shotgun for HD!

Sorry! I always wanted tp use that emoticon :bad:

#52 chumo00

chumo00
  • LocationNJ
  • Home Range:Any suggestions?

Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:03 PM

Howard, you spoke with Joe as a retired Ft Lee detective.

I just spoke with Joe and I think you misunderstood what he was saying...

He stated that as a LEO he has, with the local DA, on cases where criminals, such as drug dealers, murderers etc, where hollow point bullets were used or in their posession they were charged as such with a tack on charge

In his OPINION he does not think it is worthwhile to roll the dice with a standard hollow point round in NJ given the way the state looks at guns and ammo and when there are other options available.

* YOU * must make up your OWN mind as to what you will do and remember an opinion is like a nose everyone has one.

* YOU * must make your own decision what to do based on LEGAL counsel and not what is said in a gun shop, on this forum OR by your bartender.... :)

I did my own research before I purchased my home defense ammo. I spent over $700 on it and I now I am afraid to even load my gun with it. I thought this was the appropriate venue to ask such a question. I am a new gun owner and I am just trying to navigate NJ gun laws responsibly. No offense to Joe but I thought he was incorrect. I did understand I asked to purchase hollow points for my 357 magnum and he said "Do not shoot anyone in NJ with Hollow Points even in home defense" and he sold me different ammo instead. Either way it seems open to discussion and I see no reflection on Joe what so ever. Hes a solid guy and I like his shop and service.

#53 chumo00

chumo00
  • LocationNJ
  • Home Range:Any suggestions?

Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

Say you use hollow point because there is less wall penetration and less chance of injury to bystanders.

The fact that they will rip the gizzard out of a scumbag is just a beneficial side effect.


I do live in a townhouse so you are exactly right!

#54 Qel Hoth

Qel Hoth
  • LocationCherry Hill
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:20 AM

There is a letter from NJSP that defines what is and isn't hollow point ammo. The law says hollow point, not expanding.


That is not entirely correct. The law says "hollow nose or dum-dum bullet." NJ Supreme Court has ruled that dum-dum is plain in meaning.

Merriam-Webster

: a bullet (as one with a hollow point) that expands more than usual upon hitting an object


The Dum Dum aresenal, for which the bullets were named, made both hollow point and soft point bullets designed to expand.

It seems that if there is a fight that the victor is always assumed to the aggressor/criminal.

2C:3-4. Use of Force in Self-Protection. a. Use of force justifiable for protection of the person. Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 2C:3-9, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor reasonably believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.


When dealing with home defense, 2C:39-4c is the appropriate section to cite, and it has quite a different meaning.

c. (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:3-5, N.J.S.2C:3-9, or this section, the use of force or deadly force upon or toward an intruder who is unlawfully in a dwelling is justifiable when the actor reasonably believes that the force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself or other persons in the dwelling against the use of unlawful force by the intruder on the present occasion.

(2)A reasonable belief exists when the actor, to protect himself or a third person, was in his own dwelling at the time of the offense or was privileged to be thereon and the encounter between the actor and intruder was sudden and unexpected, compelling the actor to act instantly and:

(a)The actor reasonably believed that the intruder would inflict personal injury upon the actor or others in the dwelling; or

(b)The actor demanded that the intruder disarm, surrender or withdraw, and the intruder refused to do so.

(3)An actor employing protective force may estimate the necessity of using force when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, withdrawing or doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.


David

#55 Pizza Bob

Pizza Bob
  • LocationCentral/West NJ - Mercer County
  • Home Range:EFGA or wherever someone will guest me in

Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:44 AM

You are right! Although the response is FMJ is Geneva Convention compliant. Lefties love the Geneva Convention...


Just to be technically correct, it was not the Geneva Convention that prohibited the use of expanding ammunition in warfare, it was the Hague Convention in 1899.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
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#56 leahcim

leahcim
  • LocationSouthern NJ
  • Home Range:14

Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:32 PM

Say you use hollow point because there is less wall penetration and less chance of injury to bystanders. The fact that they will rip the gizzard out of a scumbag is just a beneficial side effect.

That is why I call them "Safety rounds," they don't overpenetrate and pose less risk of collateral damage.
on the whole, market competition, when it is permitted to work, protects the consumer better than do the alternative government mechanisms that have been increasingly superimposed on the market.
Milton Freedman, Free to Choose

#57 voyager9

voyager9
  • LocationBurlington County
  • Home Range:Range 14

Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

That is why I call them "Safety rounds," they don't overpenetrate and pose less risk of collateral damage.

I thought they were nuclear, baby-homing, assault bullets?

Based on this thread I'm going to look to migrate to some flavor of HD round.. I'm using FMJ now.

#58 TK421

TK421
  • LocationOcean County

Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:15 PM

I look at it this way, there is no such thing as a "nice bullet". If you are really left with no other choice and need to put a hole in someone you want to make sure you don't unintentionally put a hole in someone else. That is unless you work for the LAPD, in that case all bets are off. Think of a hollow point as an emergency brake that stops the bullet in its intended target and keeps it from potentially injuring others unintentionally.

Liberal logic 101: Assault weapons are evil because they are similar to weapons used for war. Hollow point bullets are evil because they are banned from being used in war. Makes complete sense to me.
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

#59 kman

kman
  • LocationNorth New Jersey
  • Home Range:Easton Fish and Game, PA

Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

Think of a hollow point as an emergency brake that stops the bullet in its intended target and keeps it from potentially injuring others unintentionally.


That is the best explanation I have ever heard regarding this.

#60 MrSurfboard

MrSurfboard
  • LocationTR
  • Home Range:Shore Shot

Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

The other point that I wanted to make is just because there is no hollow point (like power ball self defense ammo for instance) doesn't make it fully legal to possess in nj outside your home like fmj ammo. If the ammo is designed to expand it will likely be considered to be dum dum rounds and a box of 20 in your car is 20 felony counts if you are not enroute to the range. Watch out there. Dont get pulled over with it. For that reason alone I dont touch it. Not saying you shouldn't, just saying what I decided after thinking it through.

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Read the statute and don't say stupid things. You are allowed to use them at home and at the range. If you are transporting them properly and enroute to the range it is not illegal




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