The Best Fighting Pistol Ever Made?

[Babyface Finster 45]

[Old Dog 19]

This one should spark a heated debate :wild:.  In your opinion what is the best fighting pistol ever made. I think the best fighting pistol ever made is the Gen 3 Glock 23. It is the perfect size, carries an ample amount of ammo in the mag, and is chambered for the more than capable S&W .40, and lets face it you can't beat a Glock for reliability.

Which wars were Glocks 23's used in to qualify it is a 'fighting gun'. Are you aware that the .40 cal. is not a NATO round and we have agreements in place to use NATO calibers for general use? Are you also aware that JHP is not allowed for military use so we are talking using .40 hardball? You can make a good argument for the Glock 17 but the 23 has the same problem that the 1911 does; a non NATO caliber. OK for special units but not for widespread use. That is why we went to the 9mm in the first place.

[Sivl32 27]

never seen a  pistol fight someone.

[Sludog 0]

Is a Uzi a Pistol?

[blksheep 466]

GLOCK 17/19

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The one that shoots little alien men which eat your target from the inside out!

[Arbelest 29]

I'd go with the FN 5.7

 

[High Exposure 5,664]

Which wars were Glocks 23's used in to qualify it is a 'fighting gun'. Are you aware that the .40 cal. is not a NATO round and we have agreements in place to use NATO calibers for general use? Are you also aware that JHP is not allowed for military use so we are talking using .40 hardball? You can make a good argument for the Glock 17 but the 23 has the same problem that the 1911 does; a non NATO caliber. OK for special units but not for widespread use. That is why we went to the 9mm in the first place.

He said "fighting gun" not "gun that was used in a war". Thousands of Cops and CCW holders carry a Glock 23 everyday and for the same reasons - to save their lives or the life of another in the event they are in a FIGHT. How is it not a fighting gun?

 

I don't have any real stats handy but I would bet that there are more G23's out there carried as a gun to be used in a fight then the Army has M9s.

 

That being said, my pick for best fighting handgun is Glock of any flavor: Reliable, Simple to use, simple to maintain, simple to fix yourself, accurate enough, decent capacity, ability to add white light, all in "service calibers" (unless you have one of the .380 Glocks that aren't imported into the US), and affordable.

[blksheep 466]

Glock 23 utilizers...

US Marshalls

FBI

DEA

IRS

Baltimore City PD

Hundreds of other departments in the US

[dtown223 12]

Is that a safety on the side?

[Combat Auto 174]

OP, you really need to answer the question of which bullet to use first (uh oh! another debate!)...Then you can answer the pistol question...

 

There is no other pistol round with the extensive proven track record in war (does this qualify as "fighting"? ;-)) as the 45 acp...

 

What you want to shoot it out of is more of a personal tast thing...

 

For me it is the Wilson Combat Tactical Elite. I have shot a host of 45 cal pistols and this stands alone in it's ability in shot-to-shot recovery. It is non compensated but has a heavy flanged barrel putting the extra wieght right out there on the tip of the gun...I would think a compensated 45 would do the same thing (i've never shot one), but compensators have other issue like muzzle flash.

[diamondd817 827]

That's an easy one. Glock 18.

 

 

 

 

A fun fact about the Glock 18, that some of you may not know…

When Saddam Hussein was captured by Delta Force soldiers in December of 2003 from a spider hole in Iraq, he had an unloaded Glock 18C on him.  Four Delta force soldiers later presented the pistol to President George Bush, and according to friends and long-time associates it became a favorite memento of his, and for nearly 5 years he kept the mounted glass-encased pistol in the Oval Office.   Before Mr. Bush left the White House in January, he made arrangements for the gun to be shipped to a national archives warehouse just 18 miles north of his new home in Dallas.  No official word on whether the gun will for sure be present in the presidential library, but according to Mr. Bush’s friends and associates he intends to display it there. ( Source )

[9X19 125]

When I get to my second thought about this photo I will let you know [/quote

^^My vote for post of the week. Well done RubberBullets.

[9X19 125]

Oh and buy the way. Sig p226.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

 

Fnh 5.7 with a 30 round mag

[nitrospaz9 10]

 

Fnh 5.7 with a 30 round mag

That's pretty gnarly lookin. To bad the gun and ammo cost so much.

 

As for my pick: Any 1911 I believe is the best fighting pistol. I've never fired a glock but have handled them and they don't feel like they are for me. The M9 is a nice piece but also just not for me: I'm a true .45 lover

[alec.mc 180]

lots of fighting done with this one

 

[High Exposure 5,664]

 

Fnh 5.7 with a 30 round mag

Good thing. You will need all 30 rounds to hit so the bad guy knows he should stop.

 

That round is a notoriously bad fight stopper with nothing going for it except a good PR campaign involving placement in sci-fi movies and video games and a "kewl" looking platform to launch it from.

 

We looked at that round for my agency in a P90. The ballistic testing was abysmal at best.

 

I know a Florida SWAT Cop that shot 2 people with a P90. The terminal ballistics of the 5.7x28 leaves a lot to be desired. Practically dumped a 50 round mag into each one to stop the fight. I know for sure one of them lived, and I *think* the other one did too.

[bignic83 0]

+1 for Glock. 

[Jon 264]

H&K USP with a Match + LEM hybrid trigger with jet funnel mag well and extended mags.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Good thing. You will need all 30 rounds to hit so the bad guy knows he should stop.

 

That round is a notoriously bad fight stopper with nothing going for it except a good PR campaign involving placement in sci-fi movies and video games and a "kewl" looking platform to launch it from.

 

We looked at that round for my agency in a P90. The ballistic testing was abysmal at best.

 

I know a Florida SWAT Cop that shot 2 people with a P90. The terminal ballistics of the 5.7x28 leaves a lot to be desired. Practically dumped a 50 round mag into each one to stop the fight. I know for sure one of them lived, and I *think* the other one did too.

Secret service uses em

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Shawnmoore81 623]

That's pretty gnarly lookin. To bad the gun and ammo cost so much.

 

As for my pick: Any 1911 I believe is the best fighting pistol. I've never fired a glock but have handled them and they don't feel like they are for me. The M9 is a nice piece but also just not for me: I'm a true .45 lover

Costs about the same as .45 now

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[blksheep 466]

The platform in a P90 takes a lot of training to get used to. A MP5 in 9 or 40 would be far superior. I have have run the P90 and the rounds are weak and the platform is awkward.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Secret service uses em

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

They don't use the 5Seven Pistol, but they do use the P90. The SS also uses ARs, Sigs, Uzis, MP5s, UMPs, 249s, 240s, and a bunch of other stuff. The 5.7 platform is a niche gun, and they are used solely because they can hide them under a coat better than a short AR, not because they are a death ray or because the platform is the bees knees.

 

I know a few SS guys and a couple of their CAT guys (SS SWAT Team). The plainclothes guys that carry the P90 all know the limitations and understand that it is one mag per bad guy. If given a choice, the guys I know would all rather take ARs if they could. All the CAT guys use ARs.

 

If that round was as good as FN touts, it would be in every cop holster in America. Instead, PDs like Washington Twp NJ bought them and then had to scramble to find money to replace them after a year of use when they realized that they had been had.

[nitrospaz9 10]

Didn't this same weapon a few years ago kill a few marines without the a-hole needing to reload? Not disrespecting the soldiers but if it was strong enough to stop a few of them then I would think it was strong enough to stop any thugs on the street

[Worn_Holster 2]

I will go with the H&K P7, and give you the pistols history to offer backup why it is the best. Engineered for the combatant's survival.

 

This is from an HK engineer who is a member of the HKPro forum and is an expert on the P7:

This may be a good time to share this again.

The HK P7 is a very intriguing design. Even more so is the background why it is designed the way it is. It was not because the designer Helmut Weldle wanted it just to be different. Look at it from the aspect of the user prevailing (surviving) in a gun fight. The ENTIRE pistol is designed with that one goal in mind – to give the user minute advantages in speed, accuracy and ease of use needed to survive the violent, rapid, high stress, reactionary nature of gun fights.

According to law enforcement statistics the average gun fight is over in seconds (@ 3-5), often it occurs under low light conditions and usually it is at ranges under 7 yards. Some time the good guy starts from a disadvantage with the weapon holstered and the bad guy with the element of surprise. Thus the optimum gun fighters’ tool to prevail as the good guy would have to be;

1. Fast to make ready and to fire and;
2. Easy and non-sequential to make ready and fire AND to “make safe” afterwards and;
3. Accurate and reliable enough for the task at hand.

For the P7 the controversial caliber and related terminal effectiveness parameters were already set by the German police as 9x19mm Parabellum when they asked for candidates.

Weldle looked at gun fight stats and based his development on those factors with these goals achieved in the design.

1. Fast
The P7 can be fired in three ways with no sequence required. Squeeze Cocker first, then Trigger (preferred), Trigger then Squeeze Cocker, or both at once. So the P7 goes from uncocked and "safe" with a round chambered (which was a requirement for it – a chambered round inside yet still safe to carry that way) to a firing condition instantly. It can be upholstered and “all systems squeezed” to provide a very fast first shot. There is no manual safety to find or fool with as was the case with many semi-autos in the 1970s when it was designed. It is also fast to reload with the cocking lever acting as the slide release.

2. Easy
Under extreme stress the pistol must be able to be used easily when fine motor skills disappear and past training takes over. There are no sequential steps to fire the P7 and it is even easier to “make safe” by simply releasing the cocking lever – gun goes uncocked but still with a round in the chamber. No manual safety to engage, no decocking lever to actuate. Relaxing the hand is a simple task.

3. Accurate
How much accuracy does one need to hit a man-sized target at 7 yards or less? – not much. However accuracy can also be defined as the ability to get rounds on target quickly and instinctually, not the size of the group (aka precision). In that regard the physical layout of the P7 is purpose-designed with a select grip-to-barrel angle (same as your index finger related to the center of your palm) thus what you look at and point your finger at the pistol follows. The entire operating system, in particular the gas retardation system and fixed barrel, was developed anew to lower the P7’s center of gravity into the center of the hand to reduce the slide height and resulting muzzle whip that adversely affects rapid follow up shots. It aims naturally because it fits the hand well.

The full time SA trigger makes it easy to break each shot without the need to deal with a heavy 10+ pound and long length of travel DA or DA Only trigger pull. The squeeze cocking design allows the safe use of a SA trigger system with its resulting excellent trigger pull without the need for a manual safety, and still remain a safe system. How many other SA pistols are safe without their manual safety engaged?

Sure the P7 is safe and includes many unique safety features by design but safety during the gun fight was not a prime mover in the concept, that is beyond making it safe to carry before and after its actual use during the gun fight. The ambi mag release, adjustable sights, loaded chamber indicator extractor, slim snag-free profile and other features on the P7 are nice-to-haves as well and add to the overall package but were not core concerns as they play a minor to no factor in the classic gun fight scenario, at least that of the era of the 1970’s.

Many folks complain of the tiny and for some hard to engage slide stop and heat build up in the gas system after 3 or 4 magazines in rapid fire. That in itself reveals the true intent of the P7 as a pure gun fighter’s tool. Weldle didn’t care about that. You would never use the slide stop in a gun fight and likely never get out of the first magazine either so they are not factors. Thus is the reason why the Germans were always satisfied with 8+1 rounds (The 13-shot P7M13 was an American idea).

This is why with P7’s you either get it or don’t. They were not intended to be range guns but serious tools with a very specific purpose in mind.

G3Kurz

[Shawnmoore81 623]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service

 

By 1992, the standard issue weapon became the SIG Sauer P228 9mm pistol. In the late 1990s it was swapped for the SIG Sauer P229 chambered in the then-new .357 SIG cartridge. Agents also use the FN Five-seveN pistol chambered for the 5.7×28mm cartridge.[48] Special Agents carried Uzi submachine guns in the 1970s and 80s, but they have since been phased out, being replaced with HK MP5s and FN P90s.

 

As of 2013, Special Agents and Uniformed Division Officers carry the SIG Sauer P229 chambered for the .357 SIG cartridge or the FN Five-seveN pistol chambered in the FN 5.7×28mm ammunition.[48] Agents and Officers are also trained on shoulder weapons such as the Remington 870 shotgun and the FN P90 and HK MP5 submachine guns.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Didn't this same weapon a few years ago kill a few marines without the a-hole needing to reload? Not disrespecting the soldiers but if it was strong enough to stop a few of them then I would think it was strong enough to stop any thugs on the street

On Nov 5, 2009 a terrorist scumbag known as Nidal Malik Hasan, a 39-year-old U.S. Army major serving as a psychiatrist on base at FT Hood Texas shot 43 people killing 12 soldiers and 1 civilian. He  was armed with an FN 5seven pistol and an older model .357 revolver. I can't remember the model number, but I think it was a S&W. He did not fire the revolver.

 

This terrorist scumbag asshole walked into the medical center on base where he worked and opened fire on dozens of unarmed American Soldiers waiting for Dr. appointments. Reports state he fired in a "fanlike" motion into a large crowd of soldiers. In all he fired over 210 rounds from an FN 5.7 pistol - he most definitely reloaded. When he was finally shot by responding local Police Sgt Mark Todd they found he had another 170+ rounds on his person loaded in 20 and 30 round mags. 

 

While many (13) died, it is interesting that over twice as many (30) were wounded. Looking at the stats, most of the wounded were shot multiple times and some in critical areas like the chest, back, and head, but thankfully still lived. 

 

Three men tried to rush the terrorist scumbag and stop him. All three were killed - Captain John Gaffaney, Civilian physician assistant Michael Cahill and Army reserve Specialist Logan Burnett.

 

Soldiers/marines are people like any of us, made of meat and bone. I don't understand your quote "if it was strong enough to stop a few of them then I would think it was strong enough to stop any thugs on the street" here.

[High Exposure 5,664]

http://en.m.wikipedi..._Secret_Service

 

By 1992, the standard issue weapon became the SIG Sauer P228 9mm pistol. In the late 1990s it was swapped for the SIG Sauer P229 chambered in the then-new .357 SIG cartridge. Agents also use the FN Five-seveN pistol chambered for the 5.7×28mm cartridge.[48] Special Agents carried Uzi submachine guns in the 1970s and 80s, but they have since been phased out, being replaced with HK MP5s and FN P90s.

 

As of 2013, Special Agents and Uniformed Division Officers carry the SIG Sauer P229 chambered for the .357 SIG cartridge or the FN Five-seveN pistol chambered in the FN 5.7×28mm ammunition.[48] Agents and Officers are also trained on shoulder weapons such as the Remington 870 shotgun and the FN P90 and HK MP5 submachine guns.

 

Well Shoot... Why didn't you say you had a Wiki article on it! That article clearly trumps my first hand experience from training and being personal friends with some SS CAT guys

[bhunted 887]

Reminds me of that tv commercial with the cute blonde chick and the big gruesome dude claiming to be a french model... Lol

 

Well Shoot... Why didn't you say you had a Wiki article on it! That article clearly trumps my first hand experience from training and being personal friends with some SS CAT guys