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The end of airport firearms transport?

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Timely:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory/flying-nyc-leave-guns-home-23057809

 

DO NOT fly out of any NYC airports if you are flying with firearms unless you have a NYC permit. 

Here's what passes for good news in NYC. From the article above:

 

"Unlike most other gun-possession cases in the nation's biggest city, the airport cases are often reduced to noncriminal violations if the owners can prove there's nothing criminal about their ownership, stay out of trouble for six months, pay a $250 fine and forfeit the guns."

 

If even NYC has this tiny modicum of decency, maybe that means in that in NJ, in the theoretical but much discussed case that you are caught peeing at a gas station, or the officer finds a way to use a welding torch to remove your compensator, your life may not be over.

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Here's what passes for good news in NYC. From the article above:

If even NYC has this tiny modicum of decency, maybe that means in that in NJ, in the theoretical but much discussed case that you are caught peeing at a gas station, or the officer finds a way to use a welding torch to remove your compensator, your life may not be over.

 

In "zero tolerance" NYC, they only do this as to stay out of the national news for locking up innocent visiting gun owners with their unconstitutional laws. It is purley for self-preservation on their end, and if it was up to the overlords in NYC, they would fill their prisons in a heartbeat. Also, the last time they tried to lock up a tourist nabbed by their BS laws, he was set free by the jury via jury nullification. That's the last thing NYC wants to happen again as it demonstrates the laws are horribly broken when a jury decides to throw out the law and set an obviously "guilty" person free. reference http://nypost.com/2011/02/24/manhattan-jury-finds-man-who-had-loaded-gun-in-his-car-not-guilty/

 

As for NJ. The number one defense a NJ gun owner has when traveling with a handgun is discretion, aka not drawing attention to yourself. Once you check it in at a counter at an airport, that goes out the window.

 

In NJ, traveling with a handgun is akin to breaking the law in the eyes of our justice system. Our exemptions only give us a chance of a LEO feeling you are in the green, a chance at a legal defense, and a perhaps chance at avoiding court if the prosecutor is too busy that month. If a cop in NJ finds you with a handgun, and decides he/she doesn't like you... You will be arrested for illegal posession and told to "tell it to the judge" when you try to explain how you are operating within overlord approved exemptions. The cop would just be "doing their job". Heck, its been demonstrated that exemptions could even be denied usage by a judge in court, ala Aitken.

 

The bottom line, it all comes down to the encounter with the LEO. If they are extra power-trippy that day, or you rub them the wrong way... it could be a life changing event. I like to think most of our cops would use common sense and determine that all is on the up and up, but is that a chance you are willing to needlessly take?

 

Fly out of Philly IMO.

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Fly out of Philly IMO.

 

While I'm envious of all of you who can do that, where does that leave us north Jersey guys, from whom Philly is a couple of hours?

Certainly, New York is out of the question, as has been amply documented.

 

Are we doomed to never being able to carry, except in places to which we can drive?

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While I'm envious of all of you who can do that, where does that leave us north Jersey guys, from whom Philly is a couple of hours?

Certainly, New York is out of the question, as has been amply documented.

 

Are we doomed to never being able to carry, except in places to which we can drive?

 

Fortunately, in NW NJ, I'd have some other options.  Lehigh Valley Intl. Airport (ABE) might not be as big as EWR, or PHL, but for the destinations considered, it might be of value.   LVI International Airport.   I guess "ABE" because it was, formerly, Alllentown/Bethlehem Airport.

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While I'm envious of all of you who can do that, where does that leave us north Jersey guys, from whom Philly is a couple of hours?

Certainly, New York is out of the question, as has been amply documented.

 

Are we doomed to never being able to carry, except in places to which we can drive?

 

 

I live in Sussex County and every commercial airport is at least an hour away.

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Fortunately, in NW NJ, I'd have some other options.  Lehigh Valley Intl. Airport (ABE) might not be as big as EWR, or PHL, but for the destinations considered, it might be of value.   LVI International Airport.   I guess "ABE" because it was, formerly, Alllentown/Bethlehem Airport.

 

ABE, AVP and PHL are good.

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Very respectfultold the lady I have a unloaded hand gun with ammo in bag she said no problem please wait right here

With in two minutes they were there to accommodate me took my bag came out and said ur good and with in 5 min I was online goin toy plane

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I traveled from Newark a few weeks back with a checked pistol in my luggage.  I got there very early, in the off chance that I would encounter any delays.  I alerted the baggage checker, and she called TSA Hazmat, (who weren't available until 4AM).  Finally a representative from the airline escorted me to the entrance of the TSA room. He indicated that he needed my keys to bring to TSA so they could inspect the firearm.  I protested, and said that I needed to be present, but he wasn't having any of it.  Against my better judgement, I gave him the key, and when he returned, they didn't even open up my bag, they just x rayed it.  (No orange card, either.) They did manage to break the lock on my golf bag though.  Anyhow, the airline representative took custody of my suitcase and personally brought it to wherever they load them on the plane.  Contrast this with my returning flight from FLA, where all I did was let the baggage lady know that I had a firearm, and all she did was look in my bag to ensure the case was locked.  She put the orange card in there, and I was on my way in about 10 minutes.  No problems whatsoever.

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I see a business opportunity for an off duty or retired cop, especially in the NYC airports. This person could offer a service of physically carrying your pistol from your car to the check in counter. That way, you're never in possession outside of of your car and therefore protected by FOPA.

 

Probably not enough volume going through to make it worth while but just an idea.

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I see a business opportunity for an off duty or retired cop, especially in the NYC airports. This person could offer a service of physically carrying your pistol from your car to the check in counter. That way, you're never in possession outside of of your car and therefore protected by FOPA.

 

Probably not enough volume going through to make it worth while but just an idea.

 

Illegal transfer. Plus, he can't check in your luggage for you. Also, for a retired cop, his permit only covers the firearm listed on it. LEOSA covers everything though. 

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Illegal transfer. Plus, he can't check in your luggage for you. Also, for a retired cop, his permit only covers the firearm listed on it. LEOSA covers everything though.

 

Ryan, a Retired Police Officer permit in NJ doesn't list any firearms on it. You do list the firearms you qualify with on the qualification form. There is no regulation requiring someone with a RPO permit from carrying any handgun they own, even if they don't qualify with it.

 

LEOSA says you can only carry a handgun "of the same type of action". If you qual with a Glock you can't carry a revolver.

 

True, you have to check your own luggage. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to claim if I gave someone one of my handguns in a locked container they didn't have access to to carry for me there was a "illegal transfer".

 

If any thing would kill the proposal wooly bugger made it would be the skycap's union.

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For some reason I thought you were only allowed to carry the firearm(s) you qualified with.

 

In any case it is still an illegal transfer. If you do not think it is, please point out the law which allows this type of transfer to take place. It does not fall under the exemptions.

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For some reason I thought you were only allowed to carry the firearm(s) you qualified with. In any case it is still an illegal transfer. If you do not think it is, please point out the law which allows this type of transfer to take place. It does not fall under the exemptions.

 

There is no exemption for what I said but there are a lot of what you would consider "illegal transfers" that occur on a daily basis.

 

1. If I pull up to departures at EWR enroute to a hunting trip in Canada and have all my gear including guns in locked  put on a cart by a skycap and taken to the counter is that an illegal transfer?

 

2. If I leave one of my guns with my wife when I go on an overnight trip is that an illegal transfer?

 

3. If I come over your house and you let me handle one of your guns is that an illegal transfer?

 

4. If I am leaving the country for a few months and take all my guns and safe over to a friends house. I put all the guns in the safe and lock it and don't give my friend the key or combination is that an illegal transfer?

 

In #1 and #4 the person handling my locked up guns has no access to them.  If you have no access to the firearm how can there be a transfer.

 

In #2 and 3 the other person actually takes possession of the gun.  I've never heard or anyone arrested for either unless they commit some crime with the gun.   

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There is no exemption for what I said but there are a lot of what you would consider "illegal transfers" that occur on a daily basis.

 

1. If I pull up to departures at EWR enroute to a hunting trip in Canada and have all my gear including guns in locked put on a cart by a skycap and taken to the counter is that an illegal transfer?

 

2. If I leave one of my guns with my wife when I go on an overnight trip is that an illegal transfer?

 

3. If I come over your house and you let me handle one of your guns is that an illegal transfer?

 

4. If I am leaving the country for a few months and take all my guns and safe over to a friends house. I put all the guns in the safe and lock it and don't give my friend the key or combination is that an illegal transfer?

 

In #1 and #4 the person handling my locked up guns has no access to them. If you have no access to the firearm how can there be a transfer.

 

In #2 and 3 the other person actually takes possession of the gun. I've never heard or anyone arrested for either unless they commit some crime with the gun.

Wouldn't #4 be a case of illegal transport as you are not transporting your firearms between your home and either a place of business, hunting or a range?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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There is no exemption for what I said but there are a lot of what you would consider "illegal transfers" that occur on a daily basis.

 

 

Of course there is no exemption... as I said.

 

 

1. If I pull up to departures at EWR enroute to a hunting trip in Canada and have all my gear including guns in locked  put on a cart by a skycap and taken to the counter is that an illegal transfer?

 

No. But unless you tell the skycap, "here is my luggage, it has guns in it, and I am leaving you in possession of these guns" the skycap really isn't "in possession" of your firearms. There is a legal term for this, I forgot what it was. 

 

 

 

2. If I leave one of my guns with my wife when I go on an overnight trip is that an illegal transfer?

 

Technically, yes. Is it ever prosecuted? Probably not. But there is no exemption in the law, and Nappen has said that it could constitute an illegal transfer.

 

 

 

3. If I come over your house and you let me handle one of your guns is that an illegal transfer?

 

Yes. No exemption for that. Is it likely to be prosecuted? Probably not. But there is no exemption for this. The exemptions list specific places where you can temporarily transfer firearms to other people for specific purposes. To show someone at your home is not one of them. You can't use the argument that "it's common sense" either, as the hollow point exemption was common sense too, but as Brian Aitken found out, a judge can very easily interpret the law exactly as written and the end result is a big fat screwing. 

 

 

 

4. If I am leaving the country for a few months and take all my guns and safe over to a friends house. I put all the guns in the safe and lock it and don't give my friend the key or combination is that an illegal transfer?

 

That is definitely an illegal transfer. This is why services such as Firearms Support and Storage exist. But again, will law enforcement even know you did this? Will they care? Probably not. It would take a LEO who is savvy and knows the ins and outs of the law. Most of them do not, and I bet most don't know this is an illegal transfer. 

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In #1 and #4 the person handling my locked up guns has no access to them.  If you have no access to the firearm how can there be a transfer.

 

In #2 and 3 the other person actually takes possession of the gun.  I've never heard or anyone arrested for either unless they commit some crime with the gun.   

 

You are traveling with a firearm in a locked case in the trunk, and you go from your home to the diner, then to the grocery store, then to the laundromat, all with that unloaded firearm in a locked case in your trunk. You are then stopped by the police for a traffic violation, and they search your car. They find this unloaded firearm in a locked case. 

 

Are you illegally in possession?

 

You have no access to the firearm how can there be possession

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For number 3 we would both be fine. That is only because I am a certified instructor and I can make a temporary transfer of an unloaded firearm anywhere suitable for training purposes. I would have to make sure I instructed you on the operation of said firearm. Someone who is not a certified instructor would be breaking the law.

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For number 3 we would both be fine. That is only because I am a certified instructor and I can make a temporary transfer of an unloaded firearm anywhere suitable for training purposes. I would have to make sure I instructed you on the operation of said firearm. Someone who is not a certified instructor would be breaking the law.

 

That is a GREAT example of just how utterly stupid NJ's laws are. You aren't actually training someone with that firearm, yet you can show him/her the firearm just because you're an instructor. Meanwhile if I ask my wife or a friend to hold my firearm for me while I change my clothes or do something else, I've just done an illegal transfer. NJ never ceases to amaze. 

 

Nappen had posted a link to an article where it shows where in daily life we can unknowingly commit felonies without even realizing it. I'll see if I can dig it up. 

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I don't think it is very common for a policeman to be present when it happens. Even if there is, he'll most probably be the friend you're showing the gun to anyway and he won't be inclined to jam you up.

 

It is one of the stupid laws that only really exists on paper and is never enforced.

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I don't think it is very common for a policeman to be present when it happens. Even if there is, he'll most probably be the friend you're showing the gun to anyway and he won't be inclined to jam you up.

 

It is one of the stupid laws that only really exists on paper and is never enforced.

 

So if I shoot heroin at home and a police officer is not present I guess I haven't broken any laws either. 

 

I agree that it is a stupid law, but I disagree that it is never enforced. I will say that it hasn't been enforced yet, like the hollow point ban was and now airport firearms transport by nonresidents.

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So if I shoot heroin at home and a police officer is not present I guess I haven't broken any laws either. 

 

I agree that it is a stupid law, but I disagree that it is never enforced. I will say that it hasn't been enforced yet, like the hollow point ban was and now airport firearms transport by nonresidents.

 

I didn't say it wasn't illegal. Look at what I said in post #115.

 

The chances of getting jacked up for it is about the same as if you let your 14 yo son have a sip of beer in your own home.

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