School me on NJ legal AK variants

[High Exposure 5,662]

Ok, I am severely lacking in AK knowledge and proficiency. I need to fix that.

 

I have many ARs and am well versed/grounded in that FOW but know nothing about how to choose a quality NJ legal AK variant.

 

I am a big believer in quality gear and I know whatever I end up with I will likely set it up as a social gun with RDS, white light, and sling.

 

What are the pluses and minuses of different variants? VZ58, WASR, PAP, Saiga, etc...

 

Talk to me about caliber offerings? I have a stockpile of 5.56/.223 and an SKS in 7.62x39 with a few hundred rounds stocked. Is it worth it to pick up a new caliber ie: 5.45x39? Should I look for a 5.56 version and call it good or is the 7.62x39/5.45x39 worth it?

 

What are the BCM/Colt/Noveske/LMTs of the AK world? Conversely, what are the brands to avoid?

 

What makes milled receivers better or worse than stamped?

 

What do you need to look for as signs of a quality rifle or as signs of garbage gear?

 

What are must have features/accessories?

 

How are you guys setting up your slings and white lights? How are you mounting a RDS to the rifle?

 

What questions am I not asking because I don't know what I don't know?

 

Keep in mind I am not interested in an M4 vs AK discussion.

 

Thanks in advance!

[RecessedFilter 222]

That's a lot of questions but I'll try to keep my opinion about this simple.

 

There are many, many models available in all 3 calibers you noted, 5.56/7.62x39/5.45. Mag availability in x39 is probably the highest, followed by 5.45 and then 5.56. I'd suggest x39. A powerful .30cal round and it's available in most places. People like 5.45 (AK74) because of it's cheap surplus ammo but that ammo hasn't been back down to as cheap as it was (or at least from what I've seen). 

 

Arsenal's and pre-bans are the higher end models. You have tons of manufacturers as well as custom rifles being made so it's hard to cover them all. Arsenal and pre-bans are the higher end models. VEPR's are up there as well. IMO there aren't many "bad" AK's, some are just made better than others. People still throw WASR's under the bus but as long as the sights are straight and it shoots fine, I see no problem with them. 

 

Stamped and milled is all preference - stamped is stamped from a thin piece of sheet metal while milled is milled from a block of steel. I'd suggest one of both. Milled are more desirable but neither IMO is better or more accurate than the other. I do have to say milled are a little cooler IMO, but that's just me.

 

AK's have more options for tactical stuff more than ever nowdays. Optics can be mounted using the side rail on most AK receivers, top cover rails (they seem to lose zero quickly I've read), and via the Ultimak rail which replaces your factory gas tube. The Ultimak is nice as it sits forward so it's like a "scout" mount. The Ultimak has taken off to be the most popular optic mount I'd say. I do really like the Ultimak, but an optic mounted on a nice side-rail mount feels better for me. Placing anything bigger than a micro RDS on the Ultimak throws the balance off a little as it makes the rifle front heavy. If you are mounting something bigger like an Aimpoint or Trijicon or magnified scope, a side rail mount balances much better. They have a bunch of different rail systems to replace the for ends as well to attach other accessories via picatinny.

 

This is very, very close to one of my set ups. I have custom stained wood I did myself instead of polymer furniture. My optic, flashlight, and sling are set up the same...just different brands.

 

 

 

P.s. - there will be a ton of different opinions on this subject, fyi. Another thing to note is most of these rifles will have to be NJ-neutered so don't forget to take that into consideration. That will mean shaving the bayo lug and welding on the brake. I know Atlantic Firearms now does NJ legal conversions. They are a great company and I've had numerous positive experiences with them in the past.

[Blacksmythe 71]

If you can get your hands on one the M+M AKM's are nice. I have 4,000 rounds and a class under it. M+M Cugir 7.62x39.

[thelosticon 0]

That is a lot of questions indeed.... as far as some brands to stay away from, I can think of two right off the top of my head, definitely AIM Sports and UTG. And some you want to considers would be Midwest Industries, Parabellum Armament, Krebs Custom and Rifle Dynamics. I went thought a ton of setups before I ended up with what you see below, started out as a plain old Saiga sporter import. I found that the best way for a sling setup for me was to use the rifle dynamics m4 stock adapter and then you can use any of the m4 end plate qd sling adapters.

 

[High Exposure 5,662]

TLI, what are those buttons on the pistol grip?

[Vini 0]

Arguably the best modern AKs on US marked are produced by Arsenal. 

The best Arsenals - SGLs - are tricked out Saigas - IMO makes no sense to pay double-triple price for NJ resident since you will have to weld brake and shave bayonet lug anyway. 

Stay away from Century AKs. 

Any AK assembled on a commie factory is a good one. WASR is better than pricey "US build", IMO. 

 

IMO the best you can get as a civilian on this continent is Saiga. Convert it yourself and you will have a rifle to pass to few next generations. Or get converted one on secondary market (I bought 5.56 here from Marketplace). No worries, cold hammer forged Russian chrome lined barrel believed to hold at least 30-40K rounds before you have a chance to think about barrel issues. 

 

As far as caliber goes, all depends on your purpose. 

If you just want to familiarize yourself with AK type - get 5.56 Saiga and do magwell conversion for $90 if you are good with tools (some info here and here). Use same ammo and same mags as you have for your ARs. 

 

5.45x39 is a great round if you want to get into another caliber and interested what real current AK-74M shoots like. Round is devastating and tumbles every time no matter what. Surplus ammo currently  $0.17/round delivered (and people believe it's kinda expensive ) but it's corrosive. Not a big deal for AK - just clean after each shooting.  

Good commercial non-corrosive is $0.25/round. 

 

7.62x39 is obsolete IMO, Eastern Block counties are using 5.45x39 for almost 40 years. Makes sense if you have historical interest or want rifle you can use in other state for hunting. 

 

Saigas are hard to find right now, but with little patience and time you will get one. Also there is a chance for new shipments from Russia since manufacturer's reorganization is about to be finished. 

 

Looks like a lot of people getting negative experience with AK types because 

a) they have no knowledge about firearms and surprised that rifle doesn't shoot 1 inch groups by itself;

b) they have some AR-15 experience and try to apply same rules to AK. 

 

If you need some pointers, I can meet you at Cherry Ridge. 

[M1152 713]

Here’s my 2 cents… I’ve only been into the Saiga about three years.I will say if had an opportunity to re-purchase my saiga collection over again at the $299 price range I would definitely include the 5.45x39. I have the Saiga in 7.62x39, 223 and 308. After watching countless youtube videos the video that stands out most is a guy saying the AK platform performs best with the x39’s because of the tapered shell vs. the straight wall shell. I suppose that may be up for debate but I do see his point however I have not had any feeding issues with my Saiga 223 and I even installed the Bastard (AR to AK mag adapter) with LRBHO. I do think I missed out by not getting one chambered in 5.45x39. The Saiga in 223 is very smooth, in fact the first time I shot it I was completely amazed, it kicks like a 22LR.  The S308 is a bear and theS762 is a classic but now I’m thinking the 5.45x39 has to be similar to the S223 while the 7.62x39’s action is pretty ferocious, probably from being over-gassed or whatever.

 

The Ammo Pros & Cons as I see it. The 223/5.56 shoots flatter than 7.62x39 but the 7.62x39 ammo was a cheaper in the recent ammo drought. From what I understand 5.45x39 is also better down range than the 7.62x39 and is cheaper than 223.  so looking back I think the 5.45x39 (@ $299) would have provided the best bang-for-the-buck and would be more accurate than the 7.62x39, but like I said I would added the 5.45x39 and not excluded any of the calibers I own. I just can’t justify doing a 5.45x39 now @ $750.  

 

You asked about accessories, with the exception of the Bastard on my 223 my collection is pretty straightforward they are “Tapco” guns, kind of boring looking compared to some of the others here. I did upgrade the Tapco G2 triggers to the double-hook configuration in two of my four, the other two have the single hooks. The guys over in the S12 forum came up with slick way to adjust the double hook which equals a nice trigger job. Also I’m using the original hammers in with the G2 trigger in the S233, apparently in the S223 only the bolt length is slightly off and the hammer Tapco hammer could beat up on the bolt. More about that later if you are interested. The guys here in NJGF suggested the UltiMAK mount to add and optic so that could be a must have add-on if you can’t get by with iron sights. I have the UltiMAK on my S762 with a cheap Bushnell TRS-25 Red Dot and it works great.  I ordered some original Russian slings on eBay, you got to have one of them…  

 

And lastly here's the video I mentioned in the first paragraph, if you have 8 minutes its pretty good

 

 

 

[thelosticon 0]

TLI, what are those buttons on the pistol grip?

They activate the flashlight, its a wireless remote switch tac light.

[RUTGERS95 890]

I would say you buy a East German kit and get a nodak spud and you will have a well made AK variant

[carl_g 568]

I am relatively new to firearms and my Saiga is my first rifle. I went back and fourth between the 7.62 and 5.45. I went for the 7.62 for a couple of reasons.. At the time there were no (decently priced) 5.45s available. Also because of where we live and the magazine situation, I ended up getting the 7.62x39. You can buy saiga specific SGM mags which hold 15 rounds with no modifications. SGM does not offer them in 5.45 caliber. I like to do projects so I did the full conversion. This is what I ended up with:

 

 

[iCARRY 0]

I have a century imported SAR1 from 2002 that I have never had a problem with. Maybe I got lucky, but it is perfect for what I need it for, FUN. I stripped the stock down and stained it really dark and some varnish on it. Rarely clean it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The only ak I miss is the saiga in 556 I built to take ar15 mags....

 

 

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=c4-feed-u&v=T4oG28lvj_g

[thelosticon 0]

The only ak I miss is the saiga in 556 I built to take ar15 mags....

 

 

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=c4-feed-u&v=T4oG28lvj_g

 

That is sweet...have you seen the definitive arms conversion with LRBHO?

http://www.definitivearms.com/main_page.html

[vladtepes 1,060]

That is sweet...have you seen the definitive arms conversion with LRBHO?

http://www.definitivearms.com/main_page.html

Gave up in the AK platform since the AR platform offers so much more...

 

The only AK I have left is my 12 guage saiga.... Not getting rid of that... LoL

[High Exposure 5,662]

I would say you buy a East German kit and get a nodak spud and you will have a well made AK variant

LOL I don't even know what that means

 

The only ak I miss is the saiga in 556 I built to take ar15 mags....

I find your rifle intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter....

 

I am relatively new to firearms and my Saiga is my first rifle. I went back and fourth between the 7.62 and 5.45. I went for the 7.62 for a couple of reasons.. At the time there were no (decently priced) 5.45s available. Also because of where we live and the magazine situation, I ended up getting the 7.62x39. You can buy saiga specific SGM mags which hold 15 rounds with no modifications. SGM does not offer them in 5.45 caliber. I like to do projects so I did the full conversion. This is what I ended up with:

I like that. How hard was the conversion to do? Did you do it yourself? Any specialized tools required?

 

I will likely use non-wood furniture and possibly an M4 type stock.

 

Does the Saiga take regular AK mags (pinned to legal capacity) or are Saiga mags proprietary?

 

Right now looks like a Saiga or an Arsenal are the front runners...

 

Anyone have experience with the VZ58 type? It is a bit different from a pure AK but I find it intriguing to say the least.

 

Are there any NJ legal Galil Types? How similar is a Galil to an AK?

 

I would love to end up with something like this:

 

Or this:

 

With NJ legal changes where appropriate of course

[DargZ 5]

I went the Saiga route also.  The conversion wasn't hard.  All the videos are found on the Carolina Shooter's Supply site.

 

http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/category_s/1821.htm

 

They also sell "packaged kits" for your conversion.  It's almost like cheating.

 

Those two pictures are very interesting and I'm curious as to how they move the bolt handle to the right side.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The idea was to build a bullet proof gun that could go through dirt and mud... Be abused... And keep on going.... Furtherr the idea was to utilize both ammo and magazines that exist in abundance in the US... This way if there was ever any "issues" mags and ammo would still be very common to the weapon... Lastly I liked the drop free mags...they made mag changes really smooth..

 

I can convert a saiga in about 30 - 40 minutes... Once you've done it... It becomes VERY easy.... Hand tools and a Dremel are all that is required....

 

Like I said I do miss that gun.... But my AR is more accurate and more modular.... Which is what ultimately put the final nail in the AK coffin for me....

 

You can definitely set it up in a similar way to an AR so the feel is natural.... There are stock adapters and things like that....

[High Exposure 5,662]

I went the Saiga route also.  The conversion wasn't hard.  All the videos are found on the Carolina Shooter's Supply site.

 

http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/category_s/1821.htm

 

They also sell "packaged kits" for your conversion.  It's almost like cheating.

 

Good info thanks!

 

Those two pictures are very interesting and I'm curious as to how they move the bolt handle to the right side.

Research so far points here - AK Lightning Bolt: http://coloradoshootingsports.safewebshop.com/ak_lightning_bolt_generation_2.html

[High Exposure 5,662]

The idea was to build a bullet proof gun that could go through dirt and mud... Be abused... And keep on going.... Furtherr the idea was to utilize both ammo and magazines that exist in abundance in the US... This way if there was ever any "issues" mags and ammo would still be very common to the weapon... Lastly I liked the drop free mags...they made mag changes really smooth..

I can convert a saiga in about 30 - 40 minutes... Once you've done it... It becomes VERY easy.... Hand tools and a Dremel are all that is required....

Like I said I do miss that gun.... But my AR is more accurate and more modular.... Which is what ultimately put the final nail in the AK coffin for me....

You can definitely set it up in a similar way to an AR so the feel is natural.... There are stock adapters and things like that....

I like my ARs very much and I can run them well. I know any AK I get will not replace them in my training, preparedness, or at work.

 

I want one to become familiar with the platform, and because it never hurts to know about other things than what you are most familiar with. If I can set one up more similar to my M4 setups, that's groovy. The more familiar it feels the faster I will be able to run it well and the more benefit I will get out of training with either gun.

 

But I know an AK will never be an AR, and vice versa, and I am OK with that. That's half the reason for this thread!

[vladtepes 1,060]

I like my ARs very much and I can run them well. I know any AK I get will not replace them in my training, preparedness, or at work.

I want one to become familiar with the platform, and because it never hurts to know about other things than what you are most familiar with. If I can set one up more similar to my M4 setups, that's groovy. The more familiar it feels the faster I will be able to run it well and the more benefit I will get out of training with either gun.

But I know an AK will never be an AR, and vice versa, and I am OK with that. That's half the reason for this thread!

 

Yup with everything I said if I collected guns I would have never sold that 556 saiga... But I'm not a collector... LoL

[thelosticon 0]

Gave up in the AK platform since the AR platform offers so much more...

 

The only AK I have left is my 12 guage saiga.... Not getting rid of that... LoL

 

I've seen your saga 12 you're right not to give that up......but I'd give a jersey version of it up in a heartbeat

[Recon Racoon 49]

Galil's are banned by name so thats a no go right off the bat. 

 

I'm thinking about an AK pattern rifle just to have one, and the 5.45 round is very interesting. Its cheap, super deadly, and pretty accurate out to like 200 meters. Plus you can mags pretty cheap for it still. So finding someone with 10 or 15 round mags shouldn't be hard to do. 

[High Exposure 5,662]

Galil's are banned by name so thats a no go right off the bat.

 

Technically, so are AR15s, AK47s, and AUGs but we are allowed to have BM XM-15s, Saigas, and MSAR STG E4s.... Just wondering if they make a Gilal or a Lilag that may be NJ legal...

[vladtepes 1,060]

I've seen your saga 12 you're right not to give that up......but I'd give a jersey version of it up in a heartbeat

Wait till you see it now... LoL

 

It's 14inches with a brake on the end.... And just got back from cerakote....

[High Exposure 5,662]

Ugh... The more I research, the more I realize I have no idea what I am doing with this platform.

 

What is a bullet guide and why would you need one? What part is the "trunion" and what does it do? How do you tell a flat from a round one?

 

One hook vs two hook trigger - which one and why?

 

Vented or unvented has system? Which and why?

 

I like that lightning bolt. Will that work in a Saiga?

 

I am pretty handy and technically/mechanically minded. I am really digging the idea of converting a Saiga myself, I think it would be a great learning experience and that is half the reason I want an AK type. At the same time, I like to have top of the line stuff. Is it worth it to just buy what I want already done up by a reputable dealer/manufacturer ie: Arsenal etc... or possibly a board member here?

 

Is this the Saiga you guys are starting with to end up with the ones shown above?

 

If I do it myself, who makes quality parts for this project? What companies should I avoid? Any "options" or upgrades to do while I am building vs later down the road?

 

I am more and more intrigued by the 5.45x39 especially when you can get it so cheap, but I have questions....

 

How do you take care of a rifle shooting corrosive ammo? How long do you have to clean it before you ruin your stick -does it have to be done Instantly, before or after the drive home from the range, do you have a day or two to take care of it? Is it worth the trouble or if I have easy access and a good supply of 5.56 should I just stick with that?

[ogfarmer 138]

bullet guide is like a feed ramp , it just allows the use of standard ak mags in the rifle instead of saiga mags, saiga mags will still work if you trim them a little after installing the guide

[ogfarmer 138]

for parts companies for saiga conversions

 

http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/category_s/1857.htm

 

http://www.dinzagarms.com/

[ogfarmer 138]

most use a AK74 gas tube which is unvented.

 

I am currently about to convert mine, My furniture finally will be here on Monday and all the other parts are trickling in.

[ogfarmer 138]

Saiga 12 forums have resources outside of the ones here

 

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?

[vladtepes 1,060]

* bullet guide is a ramp that allows you to use some legit AK mags...

* if you get a saiga.. then one hook... you get the Tapco G2.. it is really light smooth and cheap..

* you will go to a regular AK gas tube unless you get an ultimak.. vented or not is moot and unimportant..

* lightning bolt can work sure.. saiga IS AK from Russia... Saiga = AK for all practical purposes.. 

* you can build it yourself or I can meet you in a shady hotel room in PA somewhere between us and we can build it together...

* yes that is factory Saiga...

* for parts expect the following...

rails - ultimak

fire control group - tapco G2

furniture - is a toss up.. if you like AR stuff you can use a lot of that on an AK.. Magpul makes an AK specific pistol grip now also.... some Tapco furniture is garbage.. but the trigger they make is good.. Kvar also makes good furniture...

magazines - it is all going to depend on what caliber...

optic - Aimpoint micro on an ultimag gas tube is all I ever run on an AK because it works.. and it works really well... 

* 5.45x39 you are on your own.. I had one for a minute... and sold it to fund an AR15.. it was fine.. but I saw no point in it since I shoot 556 so frequently... I am also NOT a corrosive ammo fan.. the caliber did have next to no recoil.. and that was pretty cool.. 

 

what else would you like input on? lol

 

Ugh... The more I research, the more I realize I have no idea what I am doing with this platform.

What is a bullet guide and why would you need one? What part is the "trunion" and what does it do? How do you tell a flat from a round one?

One hook vs two hook trigger - which one and why?

Vented or unvented has system? Which and why?

I like that lightning bolt. Will that work in a Saiga?

I am pretty handy and technically/mechanically minded. I am really digging the idea of converting a Saiga myself, I think it would be a great learning experience and that is half the reason I want an AK type. At the same time, I like to have top of the line stuff. Is it worth it to just buy what I want already done up by a reputable dealer/manufacturer ie: Arsenal etc... or possibly a board member here?

Is this the Saiga you guys are starting with to end up with the ones shown above?


If I do it myself, who makes quality parts for this project? What companies should I avoid? Any "options" or upgrades to do while I am building vs later down the road?

I am more and more intrigued by the 5.45x39 especially when you can get it so cheap, but I have questions....

How do you take care of a rifle shooting corrosive ammo? How long do you have to clean it before you ruin your stick -does it have to be done Instantly, before or after the drive home from the range, do you have a day or two to take care of it? Is it worth the trouble or if I have easy access and a good supply of 5.56 should I just stick with that?