nj ccw question

[SuRrEaLNJ 294]

yes, no ccw in nj i know that, thats not my question

 

given the light of the situation at my job tonight i am going to apply for ccw that im not going to get im sure, but if nothing else im going to annoy them with paperwork. its worth wasting the $20 to me at this point

 

i have the sp 642 with 3 endorsements on the second page, i know i need a letter of need, as well as a description of and sn for weapons i intend to carry.

 

is there anything else i need to know?

[GRIZ 3,369]

Full info and forms on NJSP.Org I believe.

[SuRrEaLNJ 294]

i got the form from there, but couldnt find the acompanying instructions, they lump em all together here http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/072913_firearms_app_procedure.pdf

[PK90 3,570]

Just be aware that you will have to check that you were denied a permit to carry when you submit your next application for a permit to purchase. No big deal for most, but you will have to explain it every time.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Pretty much listed on page 2. Note you must qualify and turn that paperwork in with your application. I think Gun for Hire can do the qualification.

[vladtepes 1,060]

"so you are applying for a concealed carry permit because of what happened at your job is that correct?"

"yes"

"so your employer and owner of the property are both aware that you intend to carry a gun while working?"

[leadunderpressure 52]

Is your letter of need "I work at GSP and no one showed up until after the shooting started?"

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Luso 6]

this is genius. the entire system should be flooded with people who work at the gsp applying for these permits, and let the state publicly explain that they would rather you be slaughtered than lawfully carry a firearm. 

 

I hate that everyone wants to sit back because they don't want to check some box. they are denying you your rights regardless, WHO CARES?
 

all 1 million gun owners should be applying for the permit and drive the acceptance rate for it into the crapper, and make THE STATE DEFEND why they would rather you be DEAD than carry a gun

[SuRrEaLNJ 294]

"so you are applying for a concealed carry permit because of what happened at your job is that correct?"

"yes"

"so your employer and owner of the property are both aware that you intend to carry a gun while working?"

I am working on that part as well. my sitting down with he boss is slightly delayed due to the place still being closed

 

i did a qualification when i did my first cmp purchase as my fl ccw didnt come in yet to photocopy as proof

 

that was supposed to be my shift, i generally close on mondays, i requested off due to a wedding on sunday. the wife had to beg me to not go down there (unarmed im not that dumb before anyone says it) no im not paid enough for that shit, but i knew one of my equals as well as one id be responsible for if i was there were in the stockroom with 3 customers. sitting here just didnt seem like a great idea to me

 

i dont know if its exactly genius

[maintenanceguy 510]

NJ2AS asked members to all pick up Carry applications several months ago and I figured there would be a day when a thousand people would all apply en masse with a standard and uniform letter. 

 

Nothing ever came of it.  Too bad, the state's defense in the 3rd Circuit carry case - which we lost - was that they already approve almost 95% of applicants.  They failed to mention that only 800 armed guards apply every year because everyone else is intimidated by having to check "I was denied" on the firearms application for the rest of their lives.

[ryan_j 0]

this is genius. the entire system should be flooded with people who work at the gsp applying for these permits, and let the state publicly explain that they would rather you be slaughtered than lawfully carry a firearm. 

 

I hate that everyone wants to sit back because they don't want to check some box. they are denying you your rights regardless, WHO CARES?

 

all 1 million gun owners should be applying for the permit and drive the acceptance rate for it into the crapper, and make THE STATE DEFEND why they would rather you be DEAD than carry a gun

 

They don't care. They will do it. They don't care. They think a silly sign will stop a psycho with a gun. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

I am working on that part as well. my sitting down with he boss is slightly delayed due to the place still being closed

 

i did a qualification when i did my first cmp purchase as my fl ccw didnt come in yet to photocopy as proof

 

that was supposed to be my shift, i generally close on mondays, i requested off due to a wedding on sunday. the wife had to beg me to not go down there (unarmed im not that dumb before anyone says it) no im not paid enough for that shit, but i knew one of my equals as well as one id be responsible for if i was there were in the stockroom with 3 customers. sitting here just didnt seem like a great idea to me

 

i dont know if its exactly genius

You will need to shoot the NJ qual course.

[Luso 6]

They don't care. They will do it. They don't care. They think a silly sign will stop a psycho with a gun. 

Right, but they rest on the fact, as someone mentioned above, that the acceptance rate is through the roof (high 90th percentile) 

 

They CITE THIS in the courts as a defense. If 1000 people are being granted permits annually, and you get even 10,000 people to apply and be rejected, they will go from 95% to about 7% in one year! 

 

It's all about taking away their argument. It is a lot easier to make a case, particularly in the upcoming supreme court case with Pantano, that the state is systematically denying you your rights when you show that that is precisely what is happening! right now, it just looks like everyone that wants a permit is getting a permit, and no one else is asking for it.

 

This logic is insane. It's like saying black people don't have the right to vote, but no black people ever try to vote, therefore there is no need to change the law. We control the narrative. Make the state DEFEND Their position. Right now, they have nothing to defend. They are "doing their part" by granting virtually 100% of the applications they receive. 

 

You can make their life hell in court if we could somehow get that number to less than 1% of applicants getting a permit. Now you can make arguments that the state is systematically choosing who gets to live and who gets to die. Who is worthy of protecting their lives and family (those connected to politicians, and brinks employees ON DUTY ONLY). You can make it into a race thing. Maybe you get 1000 black people from paterson newark and camden with clean records to apply and get every one of them denied. Headline: NJ Courts Discriminate Against Black Citizens; Denied Right to Self Protection"

 

We control the narrative. We are LETTING them do this to us. Flood the damn system every day with rejected applications. Make the police officers processing the applications cry uncle. Inundate the system completely. Then let the state defend to the public why they are making a civil rights issue out of concealed carry. About 40 other states have figured this out with no problems. let's stop reacting to every shooting and go to Trenton to defend why they shouldn't take MORE rights away from us. Knock these scumbags on their ass and play some OFFENSE. Take the fight to THEM

[ryan_j 0]

They don't care. Third circuit upheld the law, emboldens them more. They can basically be as boldfaced as they want now and turn down every CCW app saying we don't have justifiable need. They don't need to tiptoe around anymore like they had to do with Muller because that ship has sailed, unless our case gets granted certiorari by the US Supreme Court. 

 

Far more meaningful change can happen at the ballot box. TODAY of all days. 

 

CC might be somewhat anti gun but I really believe he will sign a reasonable CCW bill if the legislature sends it to him. After all, he can't win the Presidency if he is blatantly anti gun. 

[Luso 6]

The problem is everyone sits around like a bunch of college professors debating ethics and scared about checking a stupid box. What the hell are you "protecting" by not checking that stupid box??????

 

A lifetime of never having concealed carry anyway?? WHO GIVES A ****

 

Do you want to carry one day? Then start having 50,000 + people in this state NEEDING to check that DAMN BOX. Otherwise you will have a lifetime of never carrying, but you won't have to check the precious box.

 

It's inane to have this conversation and people bring up having to explain you were rejected. YOU ARE GETTING REJECTED ANYWAY BY DEFAULT BY DOING NOTHING..WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE

[Luso 6]

They don't care. Third circuit upheld the law, emboldens them more. They can basically be as boldfaced as they want now and turn down every CCW app saying we don't have justifiable need. They don't need to tiptoe around anymore like they had to do with Muller because that ship has sailed, unless our case gets granted certiorari by the US Supreme Court. 

 

Far more meaningful change can happen at the ballot box. TODAY of all days. 

 

CC might be somewhat anti gun but I really believe he will sign a reasonable CCW bill if the legislature sends it to him. After all, he can't win the Presidency if he is blatantly anti gun. 

I agree the courts are structured that way now on precedent.

 

but if you get 50,000 black citizens in Newark, Camden, and Paterson rejected on their application, and you throw a civil rights organization into the mix making very public that there is racial discrimination going on, the game changes, and so does the conversation.

 

No one gave 2 craps about the Washington Redskins name for decades, multiple presidencies have come and gone and no one said a word. Suddenly, a few civil rights groups are making a big deal about it, and its FORCING a PRESIDENT to bring his commentary into the situation. Visibility has an effect. It drives conversations.

 

This issue has no visibility. It has none because no one cares, the state doesn't want it to be noticed, and no citizens ASK for the "privilege".

 

It's not an immediate solution, but it all starts with making them take a POSITION. Right now the state's position is "YES, we have concealed carry privileges in NJ, and we grant it to virtually EVERYONE who asks for it. We don't have an issue".

 

That needs to change to:

 

"we deny 99% of our applicants because they do not have a need to have a gun"

 

NOW, you can build a narrative about that need. Who needs it and who doesn't? Why does the state get to decide who has the "need"? Why do you have to be connected to politicans to "need" protection?? Are normal citizens not worthy of the same protection? Black people don't "NEED" guns, while they are being slaughtered in the highest numbers statistically? 

 

This is how you drive the wedge, how you advance the ball. it is a first step in changing the narrative. The state has to take a position beyond the status quo, which is granting virtually 100% of the applications

[BD104X 1]

I don't see the big deal about checking the box:

 

Have you ever been denied? If yes, please explain:

" NJCCW - denied for insufficient need as determined by the state of NJ. "

 

That doesn't exactly make you a criminal or give them grounds to deny you anything else unless I'm missing something???

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

this is genius. the entire system should be flooded with people who work at the gsp applying for these permits, and let the state publicly explain that they would rather you be slaughtered than lawfully carry a firearm. 

 

I hate that everyone wants to sit back because they don't want to check some box. they are denying you your rights regardless, WHO CARES?

 

all 1 million gun owners should be applying for the permit and drive the acceptance rate for it into the crapper, and make THE STATE DEFEND why they would rather you be DEAD than carry a gun

 

I like it!  And I certainly admire your passion for this.  I'm more than willing to try.  Perhaps NJ2AS can help organize this now that the election is behind us, and nothing is currently on the table.

 

 

I don't see the big deal about checking the box:

 

Have you ever been denied? If yes, please explain:

" NJCCW - denied for insufficient need as determined by the state of NJ. "

 

That doesn't exactly make you a criminal or give them grounds to deny you anything else unless I'm missing something???

 

Seems simple enough.  Requires writing one additional line on the app.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see it being a NICS issue.

[Luso 6]

yes, it shouldn't be something we "wait" to do, or react to after a disaster. That's part of our problem...we wait for disasters, a bunch of anti bills get written, and then suddenly we activate into full on defense mode.

 

Let's get on offense. Let THEM play defense. Every moment they are playing defense, they aren't writing more ridiculous bills. let's put them on their heels.

 

These state orgs should have every one of their members collect an application, and then file them simultaneously across the state. you WANT the state to deny every single one of them. It bolsters our argument. Either way, we are going to win the narrative. But first, you have to TRY. HELL, some people might outright get a permit and show it isn't a big deal. 

 

We have Pantano about to happen, what better climate to do this in and show there is a huge demand for this civil right?

[maintenanceguy 510]

The court doesn't care about what is right or what the constitution says.  Instead of answering the question "is this law constitutional", the 3rd circuit court decided to use "interest balancing" and determined that the interests of the state are greater than the interests of the people.  Any 3rd grader can tell you that the bill of rights is there to protect the people when the interests of the state are different than the interests of the people. 

 

The court refused to do their job and consider the constitution because the only logical and legal decision would be that NJs laws infringe on a right.  So they said "don't look over there at the constitution - look over here instead" and made up a crooked way of denying ccw in NJ.  How outrageous is it that the federal court said the constitution can be ignored as long as it's in the best interest of the state!

[Luso 6]

The court doesn't care about what is right or what the constitution says.  Instead of answering the question "is this law constitutional", the 3rd circuit court decided to use "interest balancing" and determined that the interests of the state are greater than the interests of the people.  Any 3rd grader can tell you that the bill of rights is there to protect the people when the interests of the state are different than the interests of the people. 

 

The court refused to do their job and consider the constitution because the only logical and legal decision would be that NJs laws infringe on a right.  So they said "don't look over there at the constitution - look over here instead" and made up a crooked way of denying ccw in NJ.  How outrageous is it that the federal court said the constitution can be ignored as long as it's in the best interest of the state!

but here is where my point controls for this...who cares how they ignore the constitution or use precedent to justify their actions? 

 

I'm not suggesting conquering our political foes with intellectually superior arguments. I am not suggesting crafting legislation. we will never win that fight.

 

I am suggesting you start calling them racist, anti black elitists. Do you get the difference?

 

They play dirty, so can you.

 

Stop thinking so narrow-mindedly. Because yes, we will lose in the arena of ideas (in this state at least, with our legislature). Start thinking creatively. They need to have their position formalized (which now it is not) and then you call them racist, sexist, anti gay for denying the entire population of black/female/gay applicants their right. They want black people to DIE. Get it now? It's not about guns. It's about agitation, which is what they thrive on when they want to bolster their political arguments. (think obamacare - "war on women", "class warfare" "hating the poor") We all know obamacare for example will never help the poor (in fact, most people don't realize that below the poverty level you don't even qualify for the obamacare exchanges, you are left on medicaid) but that doesn't matter, because they frame it as "if you are against this, you hate poor people and you want them to die". Who can win against that accusation? It's emotion, and it trumps all legal arguments, court precedents, and common sense.

 

They use the same logic with everything they support. If you don't like something the president says, you hate black people. And it works.

 

Use their tactics against them. It's very simple. everyone should have that application in their hands filled out, and await to send it in en masse on the same exact day. Don't wait for another tragedy. this should be done WELL BEFORE pantano is heard

[GRIZ 3,369]

I don't see the big deal about checking the box:

 

Have you ever been denied? If yes, please explain:

" NJCCW - denied for insufficient need as determined by the state of NJ. "

 

That doesn't exactly make you a criminal or give them grounds to deny you anything else unless I'm missing something???

 

I agree.  It may add one more thing to be checked out. 

 

suRrEal.NJ, remember its not just getting your employer's permission to carry but that you NEED to carry.  This would most likely require a job title change to something like security, SORA training, raising his insurance rates, and his lease agreement come into play.  That's a lot for you to be able to carry a gun there.  The type of store would also come into consideration if your employer were willing to do all he has to.  A jewelery store, you stand a good chance of getting it.  Sunglasses or cell phones, probably not.  Many malls are already posted just not conspicuously as there are so few carry permits issued in this state.

[djg0770 481]

Why do you need any organization to coordinate what you already seem to be entirely capable of coordinating?  Why wait for <insert appropriate 2nd amendment organization here> to get with the program?  Why not just organize it grassroots and just freaking do it?  Are you afraid that your message is not viable? (For the record, I think your message IS viable)  Are you afraid that the denial will harm you in life? (I doubt that it otherwise will).

 

[louu 399]

What is Pantano?

[ogfarmer 138]

What is Pantano?

Its a person in a case in court

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/08/nj_handgun_law_heads_to_states_top_court.html

 

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/07/nj-supreme-court-to-hear-2a-case-on-justifiable-need-njs-excuse-for-denying-concealed-carry-permits/#axzz2joDOVCRn

[Newtonian 453]

Let's say every gun owner filled in the paperwork and fulfills any other criteria. They get denied, as expected.

 

Then, by some miracle, the NJ Legislature gets a Republican majority and they pass a CCW law. And we have a Republican governor as well, and she signs it.

 

But the law has one stipulation: You can't get a carry permit if we've ever turned you down before.

 

Wouldn't that be a beach?

 

 

[Luso 6]

Why do you need any organization to coordinate what you already seem to be entirely capable of coordinating? Why wait for <insert appropriate 2nd amendment organization here> to get with the program? Why not just organize it grassroots and just freaking do it? Are you afraid that your message is not viable? (For the record, I think your message IS viable) Are you afraid that the denial will harm you in life? (I doubt that it otherwise will).

 

Not afraid, but my thinking requires large numbers of people willing to do it in order to skew the percentage quickly, (preferably within the same calendar year). While not necessary, the contact info of members and organization of the nj 2nd amendment organizations would be helpful in coordinating

 

2 people doing it on their own doesn't change the statistics . Needs to be at least 1000 rejections to make a huge dent, and 50,000 rejections to completely drown their percentage. Then we are in business

 

I am the first willing to start checking that box if people are willing to do it in unison. Have absolutely nothing to lose

[Luso 6]

Let's say every gun owner filled in the paperwork and fulfills any other criteria. They get denied, as expected.

 

Then, by some miracle, the NJ Legislature gets a Republican majority and they pass a CCW law. And we have a Republican governor as well, and she signs it.

 

But the law has one stipulation: You can't get a carry permit if we've ever turned you down before.

 

Wouldn't that be a beach?

It would strike me as incredibly illegal to deny someone a privilege because they applied for it and failed for completely non criminal reasons. That's like saying if you fail a driving test by a few points on the written exam that you could never apply to drive again.

 

This is never going to happen. It's just another silly fear point. Remember, right now you are preserving the denial of your right by doing nothing. You're not protecting or defending anything, except your compliance in continuing down this path of absolutely no ccw in nj

[maintenanceguy 510]

It would strike me as incredibly illegal to deny someone a privilege because they applied for it and failed for completely non criminal reasons. ...

 

That's exactly what's happening now.  If you apply for it you will be denied for non criminal reasons.  It will happen because it is happening.

[Newtonian 453]

It would strike me as incredibly illegal to deny someone a privilege because they applied for it and failed for completely non criminal reasons. That's like saying if you fail a driving test by a few points on the written exam that you could never apply to drive again.

 

This is never going to happen. It's just another silly fear point. Remember, right now you are preserving the denial of your right by doing nothing. You're not protecting or defending anything, except your compliance in continuing down this path of absolutely no ccw in nj

I was making a theoretical point. The question is on the handgun purchase application for a reason, presumably.

 

As for it being illegal, well, legal is what the law says is legal. What they're doing now strikes me as illegal as well.

 

I don't know the best strategy for getting concealed carry in this state. We have brilliant lawyers working on it, so far unsuccessfully. If anything we're going backwards. These laws have been on the books since the 1920s.