Good Entry Level "Off The Shelf" Buy

[gleninjersey 2,141]

Lol I'm working 9-730.  How about Saturday? Or Wed night round, say 5 or 6

 

Did you ever get that ALG trigger?

 

Saturday could work....PMing you my cell again.  I was planning on Friday out at EFGA but as long as the weahter looks good for Saturday I think I can swing it.

 

Didn't pick up the ALG trigger yet.  I'm probably going to be ordering everyything all at once....

[checko 180]

Yeah we can go to SCFGPA and I'll break it down and show you all the internals and such

[n4p226r 105]

That's exactly why i"m asking all these stupid questions!!!  LOL.  I appreciate all the knowledge ....and patience.  I can see some of you behind your monitors...shaking your heads, "Not this noob question agan!".  Thanks guys.

 

 

not really.  as compared to most, i consider myself a noob when it comes to ARs as well.  But i have done years of research (web searching) and read lots of reviews from people that use these in real life, in classes, or have thousands of rounds of experience.  I've got to look over a large number of brands and guns and for me it's come down to 4 brands that i'd most likely look for when buying parts or complete rifles.  colt, BCM, noveske, and daniel defense.  

 

it's hard to put it down on paper what the difference is between different guns of the same spec but when you hold them and shoot them it feels more apparent.

 

for example, i've heard that BCM gas ports are on the small side and PSA are on the larger side.  the advantage PSA will have is that with really cheap underpowered ammo, it will no short stroke it.  the downside is that it's not as soft shooting of a gun.  and the ejection may be more erratic.  the BCM, with quality ammo, will most likely be able to put all the brass in one small area in the 4 o clock position.  you can tune the effects of both gas systems with buffer weights but generally a mid length with the smallest gas port and heaviest buffer your lowest power ammo will shoot reliably will be your best shooting rifle.  

 

i'll be honest.  the PSA would do 100% of everything i do with my rifle.  i clean it, take it to the range, shoot it for 100-200 rounds, repeat.  I'm sure its good enough for almost everyone here that doesn't use it as a duty gun.  if a bolt brakes, i could replace it and still be in slightly cheaper than the BCM. 

 

if we are talking lower parts kits, that i see a significant increase in quality you can visually inspect when going with the top tier brands. 

[gleninjersey 2,141]

Don't hate me:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/14-7-pinned/psa-14-7-chf-mid-length-lightweight-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html

Pulled the trigger on this. NO turning back now. It is done.... ....well, actually just beginning. Now I have to get the trigger assembly, BCG, some sights, mags, a comp, etc, etc.

 

Got it on sale for $319.  $100 of regular price.

[checko 180]

No ones perfect I guess.

[High Exposure 5,664]

No ones perfect I guess.

[gleninjersey 2,141]

No ones perfect I guess.

My wife would agree 100% with that statement.

[Earlswagger 13]

No ones perfect I guess.

Lol. That was funny.

 

Op- I am new to the forums, but far from new to the ar world. Congrats that you at least got something. Now go shoot!

 

HE- I had to laugh, as I too had an xm-15 and I too had the same thoughts...

 

I also like how most people put Noveske ( rip) in the list, but not Larue or Knights... Weird. ( and yes, I own a noveske, as well as a knights...) the top Ter truly build amazing products.

 

Op-you know that link does not include a bolt carrier/ bolt or ch right? And it is not pinned and welded. Just make sure you get yourself covered. Also looks like an a2 hider in the pic. Make sure they let you pick something on the nj good list.. ( roll eyes).

 

Have fun.

[louu 399]

This is a great thread, I'm learning all I can to build my first AR too. I'm gona use it in the service rifle class and shoot 600 yards. I'm thinking about buying a Keystone Accuracy upper and building a lower.

 

Looks like every one really likes BCM.

[n4p226r 105]

whats the requirements for a service rifle?

[Earlswagger 13]

This is a great thread, I'm learning all I can to build my first AR too. I'm gona use it in the service rifle class and shoot 600 yards. I'm thinking about buying a Keystone Accuracy upper and building a lower.

 

Looks like every one really likes BCM.

You really can't go wrong with BCM, they assemble a wonderful product at the 1000 to 1500 price point. if I had 1500 to spend on a pre assembled. I would go BCM or Daniel Defense. The DD rifles balance really well. and they make one of the nicer rails out there. 

 

All of these products, either complete from a manufacture or home grown, will absolutely step up a ton with a good trigger. It is probably the most impressive performance upgrade you can do.  I think, since the AGL is considered a combat trigger, you should able to use it in service class. but you would have to check.

[blksheep 466]

This is a great thread, I'm learning all I can to build my first AR too. I'm gona use it in the service rifle class and shoot 600 yards. I'm thinking about buying a Keystone Accuracy upper and building a lower.

 

Looks like every one really likes BCM.

BCM is a really great company. DD makes a great upper then there is Noveske which can and will be some coin. Thats my next one. Trying to find a BCM, DD or a Noveske lower in this state is like trying to capture a unicorn. I have found my lowers all across the US and I happen to find a New BCM upper just as I wanted it already made compliant on another forum here in Jersey. That was luck.

[fslater 62]

I only have experience with 2 types of AR's ........ The one I would recommend is the S&W M&P 15ORC (optics ready compliant)....... Got mine for $800 free delivery From GunsAmerica and  have had zero problems with it. One thing to keep in mind with any optics ready AR is sights/optics are not cheap...... I bought relatively cheap sights for mine when I first got it because of the tight budget I was on. I got lucky ....... The cheap stuff works good. Holds zero thu 1000 rounds fired .........Generic Pop-Up  BUIS (Zero'd @ 50/300yd) from EBay $29. SightMark RedDot (50yd Zero) $79. NcStar Green Laser (50yd Zero) about $25. ......... Like I said, I got lucky all the cheap optics are right on the money @ the range they're zero'd at and have held it for 1000 rds.

As far as an AR  build. I bought my first privately owned AR complete because the only experience I had with them prior was Army field striping. The trigger,  gas block/tube, barrel, I wasn't sure I could handle. Since I got my S&W I've researched (Youtube is excellent) and found building an AR isn't any harder or more complicated than building a model ship. maybe even less so. Next one will definatly be a build....... Not because I need another AR but just because it's so easy and cheap. Buy a lower and put it together as $$ allow.

Lastly like I said above. I've had experience with 2 types of ARs...     The Smith I have now and my GI M16's. Of course the GI's were undisputably  great rifles...... I was issued by 3 different manufacturers, Colt, General Motors and (here goes, the one that's going to get me a hundred PMs saying I'm sniffing glue) Mattel! I've read all the articles saying Mattel never made M16s or they made the plastic parts but never hade their name stamped on it. In 1973, basic training, Ft.Dix NJ, I was issued an M16. Stamped on the lower receiver was the name Mattel with the multi pointed star logo and no other manufacturers name. Like I said, I've read all the articles saying this is a wives tale, a unicorn, so you can believe what you want, but..............

[blksheep 466]

Mattel?

[blksheep 466]

Like the toy?

[High Exposure 5,664]

There is no 50/300 zero. It's 50/200.

 

With all the money you spent on cheap sights/lasers you could have bought a set of quality iron sights.

 

The Hydramatic (GM) rifles weren't terribly uncommon.

 

But a Mattel M16? Wow! Those are hard to find info on. They issued very very few of those. You must have been lucky.

[chris327 30]

High exposure,

Since you seem to be very educated about the platform i would like your opinion. In an earlier post you spoke about the brand built to milspec and the true rifles. (BCM, LMT, Colt, Noveske, Daniel Defense). I understand about not getting a cheap low budget ar. These seem more expensive but im not sure how well they are built and thought you might have some experience with them. How to you feel about sig rifles, the m400 or FNH's fn15? Whats your opinion on piston driven like the ruger sr556 or other piston rifles? look forward to hearing your answer.

Chris

[n4p226r 105]

High exposure,

Since you seem to be very educated about the platform i would like your opinion. In an earlier post you spoke about the brand built to milspec and the true rifles. (BCM, LMT, Colt, Noveske, Daniel Defense). I understand about not getting a cheap low budget ar. These seem more expensive but im not sure how well they are built and thought you might have some experience with them. How to you feel about sig rifles, the m400 or FNH's fn15? Whats your opinion on piston driven like the ruger sr556 or other piston rifles? look forward to hearing your answer.

Chris

 

 

im not high exposure, but i'd say that the sig m400 and the fn15 are both a step below the ones you have listed.  the FN has some weird issue where they can't use the TDP specs to build a rifle due to their government contract and licensing with colt.  and they seemed to have cut corners when they should be putting out essentially a copy of the colt 6920.  the m400 comes with a semi-auto carrier.  while not that big of a deal i suppose, it does show that they are cutting corners somewhere. like all other budget lines, they seemed to be over gassed and quality control is a little all over the place.  i've seen reports of their castle nut being staked on some and not others.  

 

as for pistol rifles, thats a whole different ballgame.  i have no experience with any other than the sig 556 which isn't exactly a pistol AR.  but i see no reason to even want to look at one.  

[chris327 30]

im not high exposure, but i'd say that the sig m400 and the fn15 are both a step below the ones you have listed.  the FN has some weird issue where they can't use the TDP specs to build a rifle due to their government contract and licensing with colt.  and they seemed to have cut corners when they should be putting out essentially a copy of the colt 6920.  the m400 comes with a semi-auto carrier.  while not that big of a deal i suppose, it does show that they are cutting corners somewhere. like all other budget lines, they seemed to be over gassed and quality control is a little all over the place.  i've seen reports of their castle nut being staked on some and not others.  

 

as for pistol rifles, thats a whole different ballgame.  i have no experience with any other than the sig 556 which isn't exactly a pistol AR.  but i see no reason to even want to look at one.  

thanks for the info. Didnt know that about the fn. I thought it was close to a clone of the 6920. Especially at the price its about the same as the 6920 is. Not that i was interested in a piston gun was just wondering about them.

[n4p226r 105]

i always wonder how companies like bushmaster and other cheaper manufacturers get such great market share when they are only marginally cheaper than the low side.  i wonder if its because people MUST have quad rails and stuff like that.  forgetting the NJ compliant thing for a bit but you can regularly get 6920s for less than $1k.  i've seen them as low as $800.  its not much more than any other complete rifle out there besides the really bottom tier stuff like del ton.   then bravo company sells the EAG upper half package.  if you don't live in NJ you can get it with a pinned flash hider for $770 and only $40 more for a NJ legal brake. a 16" noveske upper is only $130 more.  BCM complete lowers sell for $380 with no stock or $395 with mil spec stock.  so for less than $1200 you have a complete BCM rifle.  i always tell anyone.  if you want to spend less than $1000, get a 6920.  if you want to spend just over $1k get the BCM, and if you want to spend more than $1500, get whatever you want.   

[Shawnmoore81 623]

My sig 516 is great. My first time or 2 at the range it had some failure to feed issues. But now that the gun is broken in its flawless.

[High Exposure 5,664]

High exposure,

Since you seem to be very educated about the platform i would like your opinion. In an earlier post you spoke about the brand built to milspec and the true rifles. (BCM, LMT, Colt, Noveske, Daniel Defense). I understand about not getting a cheap low budget ar. These seem more expensive but im not sure how well they are built and thought you might have some experience with them. How to you feel about sig rifles, the m400 or FNH's fn15? Whats your opinion on piston driven like the ruger sr556 or other piston rifles? look forward to hearing your answer.

Chris

Chris,

 

Sig, Ruger, FN etcetera make great guns. I am not sold on their ARs though. There are plenty of established makers out there turning out an excellent product at a fair price. I don't see the need to gamble on something new just for the sake of a few $$ or to be different/have the newest "toy".

 

That isn't to say that you can't get a bad BCM product for example. I know that anything created by man can fail and all manufacturers let a lemon squeak by now and then. In fact I just had to sand a brand new BCM Bolt Carrier back because it was leaking gas. Their CS was outstanding and I am satisfied because they made it right. This did not turn me away from BCM though, and in fact I just bought another BCM BCG to replace another high round count rifle's BCG as part of its preventative maintenance cycle. This one ran fine right out of the package when tested for function - as have the other 8 BCM BCGs I have purchased.

 

Bottom line is I do not aspire to mediocrity. I expect my gear to perform and am happy to pay a little more if that's what it takes, because I know the gear is built to meet or exceed the standard.

 

BCM, Colt, DD, LMT, Noveske, LaRue, KAC they get my $$. S&W is the only company who I would buy from that doesn't meet or exceed the TDP for the M16 FoW.

 

I am a big fan of DI guns. If I was going to get a piston gun it would be either an HK or a LWRC - That is it. I do not believe the piston hype after seeing many problems on the line over the last few years. Very few Piston guns come to class, but a high percentage of them have issues. Proprietary parts exacerbate the situation and many shooters that start a class with a piston gun end the class with a DI gun. In my line of work I call that a clue.

 

i always wonder how companies like bushmaster and other cheaper manufacturers get such great market share when they are only marginally cheaper than the low side. i wonder if its because people MUST have quad rails and stuff like that. forgetting the NJ compliant thing for a bit but you can regularly get 6920s for less than $1k. i've seen them as low as $800. its not much more than any other complete rifle out there besides the really bottom tier stuff like del ton. then bravo company sells the EAG upper half package. if you don't live in NJ you can get it with a pinned flash hider for $770 and only $40 more for a NJ legal brake. a 16" noveske upper is only $130 more. BCM complete lowers sell for $380 with no stock or $395 with mil spec stock. so for less than $1200 you have a complete BCM rifle. i always tell anyone. if you want to spend less than $1000, get a 6920. if you want to spend just over $1k get the BCM, and if you want to spend more than $1500, get whatever you want.

 

This is because many subscribe to the "parts is parts", the "just as good as" and "you're just paying more for the Colt/BCM/KAC/LMT/Noveske/LaRue/DD on the side."

 

Others don't understand what they are talking about, they are new to the platform, or they are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of choices in makers, accessories, uses, etcetera and the in-your-face marketing that some companies employ.... So they take advice from their Uncle Cheech who was issued a Mattel made M16 over 35 years ago

 

Others still will only shoot 5000 rounds out of the gun in 20 years and for them a hobby gun will probably be all they ever need.

 

The issue is when they think it is appropriate to espouse the virtues of their "Awesome AR that only cost $400" to someone that is a serious student of the art of gunfighting that shoots 5000 rounds in a week at a class they just spent $600 to attend. There needs to be a frame of reference, a "vetting" so to speak, of info that makes endorsements relevant.

 

The biggest reason I think is that a great many people simply can not tell the difference between "lowest cost" and "best value".

[chris327 30]

thanks for the info, yea i was really just wondering about sig ruger and fn since like you said they do make most guns well. Ive got my eye on a colt right now and really thinking about getting a 6940. When i got my first ar back in 2008 maybe with the first obama scare, i wanted a colt and a salesman sold me on a bushmaster. I was somewhat new to firearms and was told well you can get this bushmaster that came in this morning and will be sold in about 2 hours or hope you find a colt before anything gets banned. Being young and stupid, i bought it on the spot. Now i have not had any issues with my bushmaster, but im not running it nearly as hard or as much as others run their rifles and thats likely the reason.

[n4p226r 105]

What do you like about the 6940 over the 6920? I usually see them around $300 more than the 6920. That puts you into the price range of some of the other brands. Especially when you pay extra to make it nj legal.

[Displaced Texan 11,742]

I'm a HUGE fan of Colt's monolithic uppers (6940/901 series rifles). They are simply outstanding. Out of the box, the 6940 has a ff barrel, flip up fsb, and the monolithic upper has a continuous rail that is an excellent optics platform. If you prefer a carbine length rail (I do), then the 6940 is damn tough to beat.

It is surprisingly light, too. If I remember correctly, its lighter than a stock 6920.

 

Both of my 6940's are extremely accurate, and with good ammo, will shoot MOA or better. I have recently put 10 rounds of 77gr SMK's in a quarter sized group at 100m with my ACOG equipped 6940.

 

The down side for some, is that you are married to that rail configuration. Not a big deal for me because I don't have use for a long rail. Some people prefer the ability to install a longer length rail. If a longer rail suits your needs, then buy a 6920, and bolt on the rail of your choice.

If carbine length does what you need it to do, I highly recommend the 6940.

[chris327 30]

the front sight is a folding sight on the gas block not a standard front sight, and the continuous rail from the receiver to the gas block. im not sure it makes a great difference in the rifle, or that its worth the extra in price. But if im gunna get 1 i figure get the 6940 over the 6920.

[n4p226r 105]

it all depends on what you want.  its definitely a nice rifle.  and i am a fan of colts in general.  but you are essentially limited to the configuration that the rifle comes in with not many options to change it later.  

 

here is just something to think about.  

 

colt 6940 - $1300 

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6940

 

just getting a local price on compliancy work. $135

http://www.mastodonammo.com/njgunlegal.html

 

BCM compensator $90

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Compensator-MOD-0-5-56-p/bcm-gfc-mod-0-556.htm

 

that puts your total around $1525 plus transfers and shipping and tax and whatever else.  

 

you can go here and get a mid length 14.5" with any rail you want.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-14-5-Mid-Length-Group-s/135.htm

 

if you figure the most expensive setup with no expense spared you'd have an upper like this with the comp pinned for $903

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM%2DURG%2DMID%2D14+DDL12

 

add $45 for a gunfighter charging handle and $180 for a BCG and $93 - $200 for iron sights.  that puts you at $425 extra or $1221 - 1325 for the upper 

 

if you got a BCM lower it would be $395.  and you'd only need the stock pinned for $15.  that puts your total for an all BCM rifle with DD rail at $1631 with magpul sights.  

 

you could be even cheaper than the colt if you went with a cheaper rail or decided to build a lower yourself from a non-matching brand.  

 

don't take this as my trying to talk you out of the colt.  its just at that $1500-1600 range you open yourself up to a lot of top tier options. 

 

 

i believe the 6940 front sight is made by KAC and is supposed to be very nice.  

 

i happen to hate quad rails, so i went with a keymod rail.  you are more than welcome to try out my noveske with keymod rail and 14.5" mid length gas system if you want to compare it to your bushmaster.  

[chris327 30]

yea im gunna have to go to and fondle a few and see what im going to do. like you said 15-1600 you have some options.

[Displaced Texan 11,742]

If you were closer I'd invite you to shoot my 6940 and 6920.

[louu 399]

http://www.dpmsinc.com/A2-CLASSIC_ep_104-1.html

 

What do you guys think about DPMS rifles like this one?

 

Any one ever have one?

How would it hold up for 4000 rounds a year?