Time to start a new gun group in NJ???

[mipafox 438]

F you Vlad G.  You have no idea what it takes to do what we do here.  You're a keyboard commando full of piss and vinegar.  I told you I was f&^#%_ busy, too busy to bother with your petty idea about having a (insert whatever good or bad idea here).  If you continue in this vein, you will be banned from this forum.  You're a pisant know nothing.  What have you done for the cause?  Huh?  Really, well you brought 35 people into shooting, good at ya, we have brought this message to thousands, literally thousands of people.  Now they know.  Here, (throws $35 bucks at Vlad) here's your god damn membership fee.  >I< don't want you in MY organization you useless troll.

 

Oh - btw, you're not banned.

Wow, this guy sounds better and better! He could be my real Daddy!

 

And you guys want him to step down?

[Vlad G 345]

F you Vlad G.  You have no idea what it takes to do what we do here.  You're a keyboard commando full of piss and vinegar.  I told you I was f&^#%_ busy, too busy to bother with your petty idea about having a (insert whatever good or bad idea here).  If you continue in this vein, you will be banned from this forum.  You're a pisant know nothing.  What have you done for the cause?  Huh?  Really, well you brought 35 people into shooting, good at ya, we have brought this message to thousands, literally thousands of people.  Now they know.  Here, (throws $35 bucks at Vlad) here's your god damn membership fee.  >I< don't want you in MY organization you useless troll.

 

 

 

 

You mean like that Vlad?  Cause that's the bs.

 

Oh - btw, you're not banned.

 

So I'm gonna choose to take that under the notion that this was how you were treated and as an attempt to ask me how I felt if I was treated that way. Crap, I don't even get mad if you really meant it that way for real TBH, I'm not that easily offended. Plus, personally my screen name is my name, people know who I am and what I do so I don't really feel the need to defend my words or actions. 

 

Now, assuming this is the first case, ask yourself this: Getting pissed off a lot and angry, is it helping? Is it helping you? Is it helping the cause? Does airing this in public help our image? Does it make anti-gunners sad or happy?

 

It really does help if you start with the notion of zero expectations. That way you are never disappointed. Again, this is the THIRD NJ pro-gun group that I've thrown some money at and got in some way involved with, but it is by far the most successful one. Sadly. 

 

So in all seriousness, grow thicker skin because otherwise in this kind of fight you are just going to end up sad, broken and disillusioned if you can't take some heat, from their side, or our own side. You don't have to make friends with people, you don't have to want to date their daughter, you just need to try to work with them for a common goal even if you don't particularly like them or if they have bad manners. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to get across is don't worry about anyone thinks of your contributions.  Just get them to contribute more. 

[gunguy1960 2]

Imagine if police chiefs looked at these postings before deciding on issuing firearms cards/permits! How many LEOs would be assigned desk duty and how many moderators would be denied cards/permits ? Its not too far fetched, loan companies and potential bosses are doing it along with many other companies/organizations. Streams of obscenities may work on the streets of newark at 3am but please find the off switch, if possible.

[mipafox 438]

Imagine if police chiefs looked at these postings before deciding on issuing firearms cards/permits! How many LEOs would be assigned desk duty and how many moderators would be denied cards/permits ? Its not too far fetched, loan companies and potential bosses are doing it along with many other companies/organizations. Streams of obscenities may work on the streets of newark at 3am but please find the off switch, if possible.

Absolutely. You have no free speech rights in the state were you need government permission to buy a gun. You hit the nail on the head.

[ryan_j 0]

I'm surprised you guys don't know who Ron Soussa is. Ron is a businessman and property developer. He's also a contributor to NJ2AS and the 2A movement in NJ, I believe both financially and in terms of effort. He's also a sponsor of Gun for Hire Radio. He advertises his business - http://www.montvilleoffice.com on GFH radio. From what I know of Ron, he's a good guy. And oh yeah, he also fought (sued, actually) city hall for his business against crony dirty NJ politics and won. So Ron's no cupcake.

 

Now as far as the NJ2AS stuff goes, people were upset that after short hills we didn't take advantage of the moment to bring light of how NJ restrictive gun laws are killing people. Albert Almeida, I'm sure you remember him - he is the guy who was threatened by one of his tenants in Newark and was turned down for a carry permit. He got support from 1 million moms against gun control, and I was told that Frank simply brushed it off and said we don't need them (or something to that effect). He also printed a big banner on the back of his truck telling people that NJ restricts the right to carry, and they should stand up and fight. Albert is no cupcake either, he's a former teamster and really makes no bones about the fight. He's there to fight. 

 

Anyway, both of them have had various exchanges with Frank which I won't get into here. Needless to say there's friction between them. People want to do certain things and they don't think they're getting the support. Ron and a few (emphasis on FEW) others were banned by Frank on the facebook group. The reason for the banning is not clear, but it has to do with the friction between these guys.

 

Ron in retaliation started a group called "Banned by NJ2AS" initially as a joke. Frank threatened to sue because he claims it's trademark infringement. Ron changed it to "Banned by NJ2A$$hole." So it has escalated this way. Lots of people were added to the group, most didn't even ask to be added, and wondered WTF was going on. Frank decided to tell people to drop off that group. 

 

If you also recall, there was the December meeting where they announced that carry was taking a back seat and that OEC would be at the forefront this year. That I think caused a lot of people to go sour on the society. I didn't like it at all. For me, carry is #1. I care about the permit to purchase thing but I think that we should be fighting hard on all fronts. 

 

There are some who feel that Frank isn't open to ideas. Maybe they're right. There are some who feel that Frank is taking things in the right direction. Maybe they're right too. 

 

Anyway this is what started the whole thing.

Personally I'd like to see Frank at the helm, but I'd like to see people sit down and hash it out. 2014 is not the year to fracture the NJ2AS. We don't want to be another NJCSD. That said, I think there should be support for people like Albert Almeida and Ron Soussa. These guys are willing to fight. I say let them fight. 

[kwadz 11]

Ryan,

 

Thank you for that unbiased, yet detailed explanation of how we got here.  I was unaware of how the friction and disagreements started. 

[Wojo 98]

Maybe PM's like this are part of the reason. I was involved in the beginning but saw a pattern of things and pulled back. This was about 20 minutes ago.

 

27 minutes ago

Scott you don't know me - don't act like you do

Again - in case you did not get the memo - the purpose of *MY* - yes MY page (I am the page creator) is to further the mission of the NJ2AS. If you aren't on board - just LEAVE!

I certainly do not need or want you here.

[Wojo 98]

It is not up to me to post the emails and PM's Frank has sent to a variety of other people. Yesterday he initiated a private message to a group lampooning Frank's banning of people created by Ron. Ron is a solid guy IMHO. So FF starts this PM with like 30 people and it didn't go as planned and he stepped out of the conversation he started. He was invited back in to answer some questions but bailed out...again.

 

On Ron's page goofing on the situation, people started sharing their private emails and PM's from FF for having a different view on tactics and techniques. And then it really starting hitting the fan. I was pretty neutral at first, but after seeing his communications, the PM he started and being educated in Profiling people to a certain degree, the guy has issues and I will leave it at that. If he steps down, I will continue my membership with them. If he is involved, count me out.

 

Ryan - Kudos for the summary of the situation.

[ryan_j 0]

I haven't gotten IMs like that but I have gotten others (from Frank) saying that people simply aren't pulling their weight. They're not volunteering and they're not helping out. He also said we have a bunch of keyboard commandoes.

 

I am guilty of same so I decided to get off my duff and volunteer. I did the GSOSS show this weekend and I plan to do more events. I think everyone should volunteer and I think if it is true that people aren't volunteering, then maybe Frank is right to get upset about that.

[Wojo 98]

He is right on that. I was at Trenton twice. I was in DC with Heller and actually did the Protection work for Larry Pratt when we had a dismal turn out for the National 2A protest in DC and the Right to Carry in VA right across the river. From what I have seen, you can't question him or his direction.

 

Reagan was a genius because he knew, if someone didn't agree with you 20% of the time, that meant they DO agree with you 80% and that is a relationship worth keeping. I don't think FF thinks that way.

 

"Again - in case you did not get the memo - the purpose of *MY* - yes MY page (I am the page creator) is to further the mission of the NJ2AS. If you aren't on board - just LEAVE!"

 

That response in a nut shell speaks volumes about his position. 

[ogfarmer 138]

Don't forget the one radical guy a month or so ago (don't remember his name) who vowed to destroy NJ2AS cause his ideas weren't accepted because they were way overboard and dangerous. From what I remember he was refunded his dues and banned from FB. Wouldn't be surprised if hes involved some way or another.

[ryan_j 0]

Don't forget the one radical guy a month or so ago (don't remember his name) who vowed to destroy NJ2AS cause his ideas weren't accepted because they were way overboard and dangerous. From what I remember he was refunded his dues and banned from FB. Wouldn't be surprised if hes involved some way or another.

 

What ideas were that? I think I missed that. 

[checko 180]

Don't forget the one radical guy a month or so ago (don't remember his name) who vowed to destroy NJ2AS cause his ideas weren't accepted because they were way overboard and dangerous. From what I remember he was refunded his dues and banned from FB. Wouldn't be surprised if hes involved some way or another.

Was he from Texas by any chance?

[Wojo 98]

I think you know Ryan...If I am correct he posted a picture of his check. I could be wrong. No opinion either way on this.

 

Vlad and mipafox....djg is pretty spot on with his fictitious email from FF.

[ryan_j 0]

I haven't heard of anyone vowing to destroy NJ2AS. I've heard of people saying they'll do their own actions if NJ2AS doesn't help them...

 

I've also heard of one guy saying we shouldn't fight for CCW because "CCW makes us look like a bunch of gun nuts.." Really WTF?

[ogfarmer 138]

Ryan it was quickly deleted a few weeks ago....

 

He was called crazy and reckless and took offense to that from what I remember

[Wojo 98]

How about we all need to wear NJ2AS T-Shirts to attend the meeting?

 

Regardless of what becomes of me and my involvement, this is a healthy process for them to go thru. Enough ideas have been suggested that FF will have to listen to some of them. The idea of having Regions makes sense. The ideas of worrying less about 'offending' someone needs to move forward in a big way. As I said in one post, 90% of my T-shirts will offend someone somewhere without question. Tough Shite.

[Vlad G 345]

 

Vlad and mipafox....djg is pretty spot on with his fictitious email from FF.

 

That may be but you are missing my points. The first being that airing these things in public help ONLY our enemies and the there will ALWAYS be personality issues in grassroots organizations. If we don't learn to work around that, we will only fail.  A lot of people seem "hurt" and "insulted".  People should be aiming their passion at the issue not at each other, because whenever you get butthurt about these petty things you are handing a win to the enemy. 

[W2MC 1,699]

Was he from Texas by any chance?

 

I thought the same thing....wonder if he's our Militia friend?

[mipafox 438]

"Again - in case you did not get the memo - the purpose of *MY* - yes MY page (I am the page creator) is to further the mission of the NJ2AS. If you aren't on board - just LEAVE!"

 

That response in a nut shell speaks volumes about his position.

Have you tried thanking him?

[checko 180]

I thought the same thing....wonder if he's our Militia friend?

Same MO lol

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Two words:  Growing Pains!

 

Everybody needs to step-up and volunteer to do SOMETHING and the Capos need to let some people DO SOMETHING when they volunteer to do it!  Communication is a two-way street.  It would be nice if the public spectacle is done with and the folks that are left when the music stops all get a seat at the Big Boys and Girls' Table.

 

I found a spot where I can put some talents to work=BYLAWS!  So that's what I'm going to volunteer for.  How about the rest of you?

 

Dave

[Wojo 98]

No thank you's coming from me. Let me get banned or give me the boot.

 

I'm sure it is just a matter of time before he comes on here to sniff out friends and foes and then the PM attacks will start. He forgets, the 2A isn't HIS issue alone. This organization is his. Or should I say, the dues paying members and the incredible volunteers he has own it. It is not his any longer.

 

Smokin - I send money and show up to important events. I do a lot of volunteer work with my church and am a NRA EDC. I used to volunteer at CR as the LEO, but things got a little odd over there and I pulled out. I'm not going to revisit that one. You can check the CR pages and see for yourself. I criticized and opened up a can of worms when the Trenton rallies were just starting to form and ANJPRC weren't involving themselves in it.

[Shane45 807]

I think the point many of you are missing, is that their is no shortage of ideas. A sea of ideas are subitted all day, every day. But fragile egos apparently are easily fractured if the submitted idea is not shown the front stage. It simply doesnt work that way. People are needed to push forward the implimentation of any idea. So only so many irons can be in the fire at one time. And I am sure nothing has changed, but ideas are not decided upon by Frank alone. The board makes these decisions based on the merrits of the idea, the feasability, the people available to support the action, and communication with other organisations on what they have cooking and how far ahead of us they may be which may make it a moot point for us to engage. Based ENTIRELY on Ryan's synopsis, it sounds to me like fragile egos due to a lack of idea adoption caused an escalation and a fracturing, which is truly dissappointing. I do not understand those that get all butt hurt if their ideas are not adopted. You are fully free to go out and start your very own movement just like we did....

[ogfarmer 138]

[mipafox 438]

No thank you's coming from me. Let me get banned or give me the boot.

 

I'm sure it is just a matter of time before he comes on here to sniff out friends and foes and then the PM attacks will start. He forgets, the 2A isn't HIS issue alone. This organization is his. Or should I say, the dues paying members and the incredible volunteers he has own it. It is not his any longer.

The guy doesn't get paid for his work, he gets complaints, demands, and criticisms. Ever been the adult in the room? When you take a decent person who has had damn well enough and is flipping his lid, rightly or wrongly, a little gratitude and support can cause a 180 like the snap of your fingers. It's actually quite amazing.

[A-Tech 8]

The guy doesn't get paid for his work, he gets complaints, demands, and criticisms. Ever been the adult in the room? When you take a decent person who has had damn well enough and is flipping his lid, rightly or wrongly, a little gratitude and support can cause a 180 like the snap of your fingers. It's actually quite amazing.

 

So what do you do when said person is flipping his lid repeatedly over say, 6 months or so?

[mipafox 438]

So what do you do when said person is flipping his lid repeatedly over say, 6 months or so?

Have you tried thanking him?

[Wojo 98]

I was middle of the road until I saw more and more evidence coming to light. Telling someone that the org has no interest or resources is one thing. Calling them effing stupid and personal attacks are another. If you can't handle the pressures of the position delegate or step down. I think the control issues, pride and just arrogance fueled this beyond where it needed to go.

[Wojo 98]

Some prior upper 'management' types of the group have also shared some insight on why they stepped down. All the evidence is painting a picture of someone that I would not want to support. The group yes. The person. ...NFW.