two handed "thumbs forward" grip question

[n4p226r 105]

i have a somewhat weird question about grips.  i hope i can explain it well enough to get my question across.

 

lets say you are using a two handed grip.  both thumbs forward.   

 

first issue i have is the slide not locking back.  this has happened with me shooting my sigs, as well as a few other brands.  so i've been learning to keep my thumb off that spot as shown here

 

 

the other issue i have is how to line up my support hand.  the best that i can find is what travis haley shows to do in the pantaeo productions dvd.  essentially he shows to have the hand at almost a 45 degree angle and line it up so the meaty part of your thumb/palm fits snugly in the groove the other thumb makes.  essentially making no gaps on the top.  this naturally puts my support thumb on or just behind the takedown lever and is easy to find this same resting point.

 

 

my main question is grip strength.  i find i shoot much better if, instead of gripping with both hands, i kinda push my right hand out while pulling my left hand in.  i definitely feel more comfortable doing this, but if this is a bad habit, i'd like to stop doing it now.  if i try to grip tight but not too tight with my right hand and then do the same with my left hand i almost always have a longer time before i can reacquire the sights and most times have to reset my grip on the gun after each shot with a slight adjustment.  and my groups, when doing this, are consistently low and left.  

[MedicYeti 96]

I disagree with the dude in the video. I put my hands where I get a good grip which means the slide does not lock back. I know when I have shot somewhere near a magazine full so when I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang, I drop the mag, insert a new mag and rack the slide. It doesn't matter if the slide is locked back or not. Truthfully if you have the gun up and sights aligned its not easy to tell if the slide is locked back or not. You waste time looking for the slides position that you could otherwise spend just reloading.

I have learned, and teach, that you should not do the push-pull technique. Havig your muscles fighting each other is going to lead to quicker fatigue. Relax your arms and hands. You need a strong grip but not a death grip on the pistol.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Not a bad habit at all. When the whole Weaver vs Isosceles controversy was going on, the isometric tension you describe was haled as one of the strong points of the Weaver stance.

[Vlad G 345]

I think people worry to much about grip strength, 40/60 or 30/70 or whatever. Just grip it as needed. I like to say you should have a "hammer" grip, meaning the grip you would use on hammer when nailing things, tight enough to not lose it but not as tight as to vibrate yourself to hell, but the reality is that it isn't that direct of an comparison. Some very good shooters grip the gun until their knuckles are white and they leave imprints from one hand to the other, and some don't.

 

I do think you should think of your grip less of a forward push/pull and more as a lateral clamping, if that makes sense. The whole push pull thing, in my opinion, puts too much unequal pressure on your shoulders.

[A-Tech 8]

If you're slide isn't locking, it's because your putting your right thumb under your left hand. Take it out, and rest it on top of your left hand pointing forward. My right thumb rests on the rear most knuckle of my left thumb.

 

My left hand is positioned so my thumb is forward of the trigger guard resting just under the slide, with my wrist positioned so that when I'm looking down the sights I can almost draw a straight line from my forearm to my thumbnail. Doing this allows a lot of the recoil to flow through my support side, and keep a slightly less tense grip. To me, I have a less tense trigger finger and tend to pull much less.

[2Alpha 6]

 

my main question is grip strength.  i find i shoot much better if, instead of gripping with both hands, i kinda push my right hand out while pulling my left hand in.  i definitely feel more comfortable doing this, but if this is a bad habit, i'd like to stop doing it now.  if i try to grip tight but not too tight with my right hand and then do the same with my left hand i almost always have a longer time before i can reacquire the sights and most times have to reset my grip on the gun after each shot with a slight adjustment.  and my groups, when doing this, are consistently low and left.  

 

I wouldn't do the push pull, you are pulling the gun in the direction it is trying to recoil, leaving only your right hand to control the recoil.

I grip the gun fairly hard. You can get a lot of extra grip by tensioning your shoulder and chest muscles 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCfHYdyhw0

[Mr.Stu 1,913]

It doesn't matter if the slide is locked back or not. Truthfully if you have the gun up and sights aligned its not easy to tell if the slide is locked back or not. You waste time looking for the slides position that you could otherwise spend just reloading.

 

I don't know about you but I can feel the difference between the slide completing a full cycle and when it stops at the rear. Perhaps, if you have always held the slide stop down you never gave yourself a chance to discern the different feeling.

 

I shoot competitively and there is definitely a speed advantage to doing a slide lock reload and hitting the slide stop compared to having to rack the slide manually. I understand some folks prefer the single option in their manual of arms and will always manually rack the slide - that's fine but they always lose a fraction of a second in a competition. There are also the folks who have no interest in speed.

[n4p226r 105]

If you're slide isn't locking, it's because your putting your right thumb under your left hand. Take it out, and rest it on top of your left hand pointing forward. My right thumb rests on the rear most knuckle of my left thumb.

 

My left hand is positioned so my thumb is forward of the trigger guard resting just under the slide, with my wrist positioned so that when I'm looking down the sights I can almost draw a straight line from my forearm to my thumbnail. Doing this allows a lot of the recoil to flow through my support side, and keep a slightly less tense grip. To me, I have a less tense trigger finger and tend to pull much less.

I don't have my right thumb under anything when I have the issue. If it's touching the frame it has the issue. If I move it slightly off to the back of my other hand issue goes away

[n4p226r 105]

I wouldn't do the push pull, you are pulling the gun in the direction it is trying to recoil, leaving only your right hand to control the recoil.

I grip the gun fairly hard. You can get a lot of extra grip by tensioning your shoulder and chest muscles 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCfHYdyhw0

 

i just practiced what i was doing to describe it better.  im not quite pulling the gun as much as pushing it into that hand. left hand has a grip that isn't too tight but equal between fingers and palm.  right hand has very little grip on fingers and palm is pushed into left hand.  there is no force on the left hand pulling back. 

 

i watched that video.  I'm just unsure of how to get pressure on the backstrap without tightening my grip which includes tightening my fingers.  then all my shots are low and left.  

[2Alpha 6]

you want to tighten all your fingers.  The problem you are having is that when you pull the trigger, you are increasing the tension in the rest of your fingers.  This pulls the gun low left

Learn to isolate your trigger finger

[GRIZ 3,369]

I never liked the support thumb forward grip as it requires you to use a different grip for a revolver. Long ago I adopted a grip where my support thumb is on top of my shooting hand thumb keeping it out of the way. I use the same grip for all types of handguns. As far as which is better, push/pull, 30/70, thumb forward, etc you need to find which works best for you. If its safe and you shoot well with it that's what you should use. There are lots of incorrect grips and several correct ones not just one as some may say. The same goes for finger placement on the trigger. Learn the "standard" methods and adjust from there.

[raz-0 1,259]

you want to tighten all your fingers.  The problem you are having is that when you pull the trigger, you are increasing the tension in the rest of your fingers.  This pulls the gun low left

Learn to isolate your trigger finger

 

 

Aka, milking the grip, which is what you should search for on the various gun forums if you want details on how to work it out rather than relying on 2Alpha's shorthand of 'don't do it'. 

 

I could type a long post with details, but it's out there a ton of times and I don't feel like typing that much yet again. 

[n4p226r 105]

thats definitely what i do.  i'll have something to work on.  i don't ever do it dry firing though

[A-Tech 8]

I don't have my right thumb under anything when I have the issue. If it's touching the frame it has the issue. If I move it slightly off to the back of my other hand issue goes away

By under, I meant between your left hand and the frame...essentially what you're describing. Basically what is happening is your thumb is touching the side lock just enough so that when the gun recoils, it doesn't lock because you're disturbing the lock.

[n4p226r 105]

are you saying under as in picture 1 

 

or picture 2?

 

 

 

and just to be clear, my thumb, when hitting the slide stop and not locking back, would be higher on the frame over my other thumb than picture 1.  

[A-Tech 8]

You should be closer to #1, with your left thumb more on top of your left hand. When I have someone to take a picture for me, I'll show you how I personally grip.

[n4p226r 105]

yea.  just to be clear. if i am like picture 1, on the sig, my thumb can keep the slide from locking back.  all i need to do is put my right thumb on the back of the left thumb and it is fine.  i'll have someone take a picture of me holding both ways to show what i mean.  

[vladtepes 1,060]

im like picture one but my support hand is at a little more of an angle.. I only shoot glock and I have never caused the slide to not lock..