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Rolo38

FID change of address issue in Jersey City

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Hello all,


I have been following the forums for a while and have found it very educational whenever I had questions about the absurdness of our gun laws. Unfortunately I have found myself in one of these absurd predicaments, and I hope that some of you could provide some insight.


I received my FID almost two years ago. This past November I moved with my fiance to Jersey City and then realized I had to do an address change. However, moving and starting a new job prevented me from doing this in within 30 days. Plus being turned away with wrong information at the police station 2-3 times when I was able to spare some time didn't help either. When I finally was able to submit my application, I was turned away once again and given a packet with a list of additional, and illegal, requirements.


There is an informational sheet asking questions like what type of house I live in, my previous employers, name and social security numbers of people I live with (what the hell!), reason for why I am applying, do I already own guns, when and where did I received my last gun permit, and the license plate number of my car. And then there are additional documents such as proof of residency (utility bill, lease, etc), and get this, naturalization certificate or US passport if foreign-born.


Now I know this is all illegal, however as much as this violation of my rights and NJ law infuriates me, I don't have resources right now to drop several thousand dollars on a lawyer. I was gonna actually go through with it today, however, I read in a NJGF thread from last year that JC requires your employer to provide a notarized letter stating why you can have a gun. That was the last straw. I keep my personal life personal, especially from the highly liberal place where I work.


Would anybody be able to tell me how to get in touch with one of the various NJ gun rights organizations? Would they be able to provide some guidance or assistance? Fighting the City, as well as the Hudson Political machine, is no easy task. I am also now willing to talk to a lawyer. Can anybody recommend any who are reasonable in price? I heard that Nappen won a similar case for someone in Paterson for an initial FID, but also hear that his firm is expensive.


Lastly, I know this wouldn't be legal advice, but would I be alright legally in the meantime with my old FID? I didn't plan on buying any new guns soon so I'm ok there, however I think I am in a legal gray area and I don't want to be screwed (considering I'm past 30 days).


Any assistance anybody could provide in this matter would be highly appreciated, thanks


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Thanks OG, I appreciate the threads. I left ANJRPC a voicemail addressing my issue, and will contact NJ2AS shortly. i would more than happy to contribute to their causes and join any sort of law suit they eventually get rolling.

 

However, I am still kinda worried about not having an FID that matches my license, in the meantime.  I know all my guns were legally acquired and my FID is valid, but what does the law says about not having a completed an address change within 30 days of moving? I read somewhere here that while the laws says you have to get it done in 30 days, there is nothing stated about enforcement or penalties etc. Is this another of those ridiculous gray area? As much as I disagree, i still want to stay law-abiding if I can. 

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Personally, I would submit the forms Required by the State along with a copy of the Statute barring municipalities from requiring anything beyond what the State requires.  Show them that you know the law and are not one of the Sheeple willing to comply "Just because THEY said so."

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Regarding just keeping your "old" FID-

 

A. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

 

B. The FID (or rather FPID) serves the following functions:

 

i. Allows you to purchase long guns from an FFL. (Hence the 'P' in Firearms Purchaser ID).

 

ii. Allows you to purchase handgun ammunition from an FFl (.22lr is handgun ammo).

 

iii. Allows you to apply for a permit to purchase a pistol ( P2P). As point out by Bob and Paul below, not needed to apply for P2P

 

iv. Alllows you to transport/possess a long gun (unloaded, etc), without having to adhere to the standard exepmtions which DO apply to handguns (ie to from range, only reasonably necessary deviations, etc).

 

C. That for which a valid FPID is NOT needed:

 

i. Owning or possessing firearms (so long as said firearms are otherwise legal for the person to own or possess in this state).

 

ii. Owning or possessing (nj legal, as above) ammunition.

 

iii. Transporting (nj legal) firearms and ammunition to/from range, gun shop, hunting grounds, gunsmith.

 

D. I am not a lawyer and none of this was legal advice.

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You are right OG, I shall join both orgs.

 

Blueline, luckily I made my last foreseeable purchase right before I moved so i think I will be good for a while (haha well we will see if I don't see something I like in the near future and then have to suffer!)

 

Magnaw, actually as soon as the clerk rejected my filled out application and handed me the illegal packet, I calmly let her know that the NJ statutes say the extra requirements are prohibited. She was basically speechless, so either she was totally ignorant or was surprised that I spoke up. Then an old school detective comes up to me and takes over the convo. He tells me that "things are done differently in Jersey City" and that if I didn't like it I can opt to not do the address change in Jersey City. My blood started to boil but I remained calm, and repeated that that they can't supercede NJ state law, or something along those lines. He then pointed to a giant filing cabinet where they keep all the internal records of all JC gun owners (I forgot to mention that you also have to provide two mug shots that go in your "personal file") and told me that because of all their hard work not one of the gun owners in their registry has been arrested. I couldn't take it after he said that, but I still remained calm, said thank you and left. Can you believe it?? I guess he should try to get all the gang bangers in that filing cabinet cuz it seems that being in that registry automatically makes you law-adiding! Never mind that legal gun owners like us never get guns for nefarious reasons in the first place!

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Thanks for explainng Alpo, and don't worry your disclaimer is noted.

 

So from what you are saying, I assume that since my guns were legally acquired I can possess them regardless of my FID status (same goes with all legal ammo). And that my old FID, despite not matching my new license, is still a valid document that will allow me to travel with my long guns without those pesky direct-to-and-from requirements?? So in reality, the only thing I can't do with the old FID is buy another gun, since they will ask to match with my license. (I have actually purchased handgun ammo at a store that didnt ask to see my license)

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You should have said thats because legal gun owners dont commit crimes...criminals dont care about gun laws...thats why they are criminals. I have this argument with other police all the time. I meet cops that are anti citizen ownership and I provide some insight. They are more apt to listen to a fellow LEO. Trying to do my part to change the mentality from within. As the job gets younger you will see a change to a more pro gun police officer

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Blueline, I was gonna start that conversation with the detective, but I felt so frustrated that I thought it was better to just keep my composure.  I mean, I just wanted to comply with the law and really had no problem going through the process, but then they put up these illegal barriers.

 

I'm glad there are LEOs out there like you that are reasonable and trying to change things.  I've met some good cops in my job in other towns and have built good relationships with them. It is just disappointing when you met guys like these. It's really a systemic issue in NJ and I hope things will change as new cops come in, as you stated.

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If I were you, I'd try one more time, but I would go in loaded for bear. First print out the statute that states they cannot add anything to the process...

 

2C:58-3,f which states, in part: There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

 

Plus a copy of the recent court finding upholding this statute. Here's an article about the finding...

 

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/01/judge-rules-nj-towns-can-not-arbitrarily-add-additional-requirements-for-gun-permits/#ixzz2ppGz82Oy

 

If they still refuse to accept your application in the state mandated format - absent all their additions - go higher. First the CLEO and if nothing is forthcoming there, the mayor. If you still meet a brick wall, file an official misconduct complaint (2C:30-2) since they are knowingly violating state law. You may want to inform them of your intent to do so - you may gain leverage. The county DA (which is who you would file the complaint with) is obligated to perform an investigation any time such a complaint is filed.

 

Thus far, all you have invested is your time. I would also record all such meetings, with their knowledge.

 

Good luck.

 

IANAL

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

@ALPO - Your bullet point B, iii in your above post is incorrect. You do not need an FPID in order to apply for/have a P2P. It is the same application process and it stands alone.

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Thanks pizza bob, your posts are always very informative.

 

I knew this wasn't going to be easy. I will try to find the time to take off from work to get this done, even though from the conversation I had with that dectective (see above) I might as well go to chief or mayor now. I also plan to work the tow NJ gun rights orgs.

 

Luckily I already have an FID, and from what you are all saying, I should be ok with my old FID while I pursue these alternatives. 

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@ALPO - Your bullet point B, iii in your above post is incorrect. You do not need an FPID in order to apply for/have a P2P. It is the same application process and it stands alone.

Are you saying that in NJ, a person can apply for and obtain a P2P, without previously or simultaneously obtaining a FPID?

Or just that you can apply for both in one shot?

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Wow this is absolutely crazy!!!

Why? One has nothing to do with the other. The P2P is for acquiring handguns, and the FPID card is for acquiring long guns.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

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Are you saying that in NJ, a person can apply for and obtain a P2P, without previously or simultaneously obtaining a FPID?

Or just that you can apply for both in one shot?

 

As Paul has already pointed out, they are two separate things. One can apply for and obtain a P2P without having a FPID.

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As Paul has already pointed out, they are two separate things. One can apply for and obtain a P2P without having a FPID.

 

The caveat being that you will not be able to purchase handgun ammo without a FPID. I believe you can purchase handgun ammo with a valid P2P but they expire after 6 months if you are granted an extension.

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The caveat being that you will not be able to purchase handgun ammo without a FPID. I believe you can purchase handgun ammo with a valid P2P but they expire after 6 months if you are granted an extension.

 

I am not 100% certain, but I believe that you can purchase handgun ammo using the pink copy of a P2P that has been used. I believe that Paul was under that impression also, but I don't want to put words in his mouth - he'll chime in if he is still following this thread.

 

I'm curious if the OP has pursued his issue any further.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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I am not 100% certain, but I believe that you can purchase handgun ammo using the pink copy of a P2P that has been used. I believe that Paul was under that impression also, but I don't want to put words in his mouth - he'll chime in if he is still following this thread.

 

I'm curious if the OP has pursued his issue any further.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

That is my understanding. What if one buys a handgun from a dealer at 10:00AM, then goes to the range and blows thru what ammo he had for it. He then returns at 12:00PM to buy more ammo. Can he not buy ammo now because he does not have an unused permit?

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When you consider that the process for obtaining both an FPID or a P2P is identical, it stands to reason that a copy of the P2P should be good to go. The original purpose for the P2P may have expired, but it still shows that you have been vetted, the same as a FPID - the original intended purpose of which was not to buy ammo.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

The problem may arise if you have an unenlightened FFL

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When you consider that the process for obtaining both an FPID or a P2P is identical, it stands to reason that a copy of the P2P should be good to go. The original purpose for the P2P may have expired, but it still shows that you have been vetted, the same as a FPID - the original intended purpose of which was not to buy ammo.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

The problem may arise if you have an unenlightened FFL

 I think just for research I may try this and see what happens. I will have to try it at a few stores to get a reliable result. I will respond with my results but it may be a few weeks.

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