ATF want names of people that have 80% lowers

[Reddog87 0]

http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/#axzz2vohgtRYw

Seems they want the customer list of non firearms. Second dealer this month.

[Malsua 1,422]

If you're ever going to buy an 80% receiver, buy it with cash somewhere that's not on camera.

 

The ATF won't be happy until bauxite and iron ores are illegal.

[Respect2A 0]

I wonder what list you get put on for buying an 80% lower? I'm sure the ATF will slap you on some sort of list if your name is on the paperwork.

[KpdPipes 388]

I wonder what list you get put on for buying an 80% lower? I'm sure the ATF will slap you on some sort of list if your name is on the paperwork.

 it's in response to the bust a month or so ago of a gang of Illegals in Ca finishing 80% lowers (Possibly with the 3rd hole,. but that is unconfirmed) and selling them off to gangbangers.  It's STILL Nonsense, since that 80% lower is nothing more than a chunk of Aluminum or plastic  when it is sold.....however i wouldnt be surprised if BATFE tries to redefine the definition of "Firearm" in the future.

[Sota 1,191]

Pop Tarts.

because they can be bitten into the shape of a gun.

 

It's for the children.

[Respect2A 0]

it's in response to the bust a month or so ago of a gang of Illegals in Ca finishing 80% lowers (Possibly with the 3rd hole,. but that is unconfirmed) and selling them off to gangbangers. It's STILL Nonsense, since that 80% lower is nothing more than a chunk of Aluminum or plastic when it is sold.....however i wouldnt be surprised if BATFE tries to redefine the definition of "Firearm" in the future.

70% lowers?

60% lowers?

 

Where is the line? It was at 80%.

 

Movable finish lines are very easy to cross.

[MandM 2]

You know that comic/anecdote/one-liner/etc...  we give in and allow one tiny concession and they keep marching forward. The only people who are actually moving the finish line are us by allowing it to continue.

 

It's not a "movable finish line" to the ATF or the antis or MAIG or whoever.... they'll only stop when "they" are the only ones left with guns. That's their finish line.

[petros600 12]

their company owner sure has some balls, protecting his customers privacy and placing a restrain order on ATF

[ogfarmer 138]

Ares is also involved in a suite with the city because the city wants them to remove their advertising on the roof that features a ar15 and promotion of the 80%lowers

[Vlad G 345]

Guys you can buy  Sten gun in isle 4 at Home Depot. There are whole books on how to manufacture a submachine gun from commonly available parts and hand tools.

 

Add in the growth of 3d printing and this is a materials technology reality vs wishful thinking thing.

[Respect2A 0]

You know that comic/anecdote/one-liner/etc... we give in and allow one tiny concession and they keep marching forward. The only people who are actually moving the finish line are us by allowing it to continue.

 

It's not a "movable finish line" to the ATF or the antis or MAIG or whoever.... they'll only stop when "they" are the only ones left with guns. That's their finish line.

My point is they keep moving the "line" on things like what percentage finished on a hunk of metal constitutes a firearm or what magazine capacity is ok to have at will to the point that it's almost impossible for us not to cross it and have a legal firearm or legal mags anymore. Their finish line is a total gun ban in my opinion.

[Respect2A 0]

their company owner sure has some balls, protecting his customers privacy and placing a restrain order on ATF

Sounds like Saul from Breaking Bad

[Respect2A 0]

Guys you can buy Sten gun in isle 4 at Home Depot. There are whole books on how to manufacture a submachine gun from commonly available parts and hand tools.

 

Add in the growth of 3d printing and this is a materials technology reality vs wishful thinking thing.

Which is great. Id love to make an open bolt machine gun from scratch. It's not really all that hard. The problem is where can you shoot it? What's the point of having a cool firearm if you can't take it out for some fun time.

[mipafox 438]

 

I wonder what list you get put on for buying an 80% lower? I'm sure the ATF will slap you on some sort of list if your name is on the paperwork.

 

 

There is no paperwork. It's the same paperwork as buying a pencil.

 

 it's in response to the bust a month or so ago of a gang of Illegals in Ca finishing 80% lowers (Possibly with the 3rd hole,. but that is unconfirmed) and selling them off to gangbangers.  It's STILL Nonsense, since that 80% lower is nothing more than a chunk of Aluminum or plastic  when it is sold.....however i wouldnt be surprised if BATFE tries to redefine the definition of "Firearm" in the future.

Not believing this in the slightest. Yes I know these memos go out and their are FBI briefings on them, I got both for many years. But they are completely paranoid. And nobody is using ARs in crimes, nobody is using 3rd hole ARs in crimes, and illegals are not making their own ARs. Proof is in the pudding, it's bullshit.

 

I'm sure they found a few dope-smoking MS-13 that were doing just that. But I found a cop the other day that was raping women and shooting dogs. Are either an actual crime problem?

[Respect2A 0]

  

 

There is no paperwork. It's the same paperwork as buying a pencil.

 

 

Not believing this in the slightest. Yes I know these memos go out and their are FBI briefings on them, I got both for many years. But they are completely paranoid. And nobody is using ARs in crimes, nobody is using 3rd hole ARs in crimes, and illegals are not making their own ARs. Proof is in the pudding, it's bullshit.

 

I'm sure they found a few dope-smoking MS-13 that were doing just that. But I found a cop the other day that was raping women and shooting dogs. Are either an actual crime problem?

Paperwork meaning the customer list they were after. You know, all the names of people who had the 80% lowers shipped to them. I'm sure they have all that info on their computers somewhere.

[Reddog87 0]

Paperwork meaning the customer list they were after. You know, all the names of people who had the 80% lowers shipped to them. I'm sure they have all that info on their computers somewhere.

Just ask the NSA , they have the full list.

[mipafox 438]

Just ask the NSA , they have the full list.

This is likely right on the money. This is probably a case of Parallel Construction.

 

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140203/11143926078/parallel-construction-revealed-how-dea-is-trained-to-launder-classified-surveillance-info.shtml

 

NSA spying on US Citizens is not used for National Security or anti-terrorism. It's used for Federal Law enforcement. Almost exclusively. Once they have something, they have to come up with a way to say they got the info from other means so that you don't:

 

1. Object to the evidence because it is illegal (NSA spying)

2. Demand any exculpatory evidence they (the NSA) may have that proves you are innocent

3. Allow you to face your accusers (the NSA)

4. Compromise NSA methods and activities in general federal law enforcement

 

Now the government is lawless, so simply demanding the records is good enough to cover their tracks, even if they aren't given anything by the manufacturers or even if the manufacturer's didn't have anything to give in the first place. ATF will say, "We had cooperation from a source" or found a way or whatever.

 

Any of our forum members that are Special Agents in the DEA or FBI have gone through seminars on this. It's SOP.

[PK90 3,573]

Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list

 

[MidwestPX 172]

It seems ATF has physically broken into Ares' store today:

 

[carl_g 568]

wow....

[MidwestPX 172]

This is EXTREMELY concerning if the injunction/restraining order was still in place and the ATF acted without regard for it.

[Vlad G 345]

I'm betting no records were there anymore.

[PK90 3,573]

Another one bites the dust, ie. Cavalry Arms.

[pbkid6974 1]

if i was that store owner i would have destroyed all the computers and papers. not the bound books for actual firearms required to be an FFL, but any receipts for 80% lowers, gear, ammo, mags, etc. just another step towards goose-stepping brown shirts.

[MidwestPX 172]

Another one bites the dust, ie. Cavalry Arms.

The big difference here being Cav Arms was subcontracting the production of their lowers to a non-licensee and the ATF specifically told them multiple times that it wasn't okay because even though the lowers were made one half at a time, the ATF showed they could make a functioning firearm with separate halves with some duct tape.  Ares is a dealer for EP Armory, not the manufacturer.  What I'm more concerned about is the possibility that the ATF raided Ares and completely disregarded a federal injunction that was in place.

[MidwestPX 172]

if i was that store owner i would have destroyed all the computers and papers. not the bound books for actual firearms required to be an FFL, but any receipts for 80% lowers, gear, ammo, mags, etc. just another step towards goose-stepping brown shirts.

Ares isn't an FFL.

[pbkid6974 1]

Ares isn't an FFL.

then everything would have been gone. i had a feeling the ATF was gonna do something like this when i first read about this story.

[checko 180]

It makes it even more alarming to me that they are NOT an FFL. The only thing I can think of with this mess is they were selling something more than 80%.  Midwest, you may know, is there a chance EP armory sent out product that was "too finished"?   Aside from that, why aren't thousands of raids being done across the country for everyone that is selling 80%? 

[Vlad G 345]

 

It is about the plastic 80% lowers with soft and different colored plastic that needs to be removed, which makes it easier to finish. The ATF claims that the manufacturing of it entailed making a finish receiver and then filling it with the extra so it is a finished firearm according to them.

[MidwestPX 172]

It makes it even more alarming to me that they are NOT an FFL. The only thing I can think of with this mess is they were selling something more than 80%.  Midwest, you may know, is there a chance EP armory sent out product that was "too finished"?   Aside from that, why aren't thousands of raids being done across the country for everyone that is selling 80%? 

The original reason for the ATF raiding EP Armory, the manufacturer, was because they were mistakenly under the impression that the lower and plug were made separately then assembled.  If that was the case, the ATF would be correct in saying the paperweights were in fact firearms.  However, the way EP Armory makes them is they make the plug and insert the plug in the mold then inject more polymer to make the lower.  The empty fire control group pocket never exists and that's what would have triggered the lower being a firearm.

 

The ATF was provided with the correct/updated manufacturing information yet they continued to press and raid, possibly in defiance of a court-granted injunction.