Are these New Jersey legal?

[One_crazy_dude 1]

Hello all,

Like the title says.

 

http://www.cdnnsports.com/magazines/ar15-223-15rd-pinned-e4-blk.html#.UyJcWn-9KSM

 

At that price I would order a bunch. Soooooo are they?

[ogfarmer 138]

I wouldn't think just a external rivet is sufficient. doesn't seem permanent to me

[JT Custom Guns 956]

Yes they are legal...............

[checko 180]

It needs to be "permanently modified" at 15 rounds.  Only you can decide if thats permanent enough to own

[Blake 50]

I bought a few of these when they first popped up for $9.  When I received them it was my personal opinion that the Midwest PX or mags from PK90 were better options.  I based this on the fact that they way they mod the mags is irreversible whereas these you can just pull the rivet and now you have a full capacity mag. 

[checko 180]

I have also seen some bad reviews of these mags floating around the net.  Magpul in my opinion is a much better option. 

[One_crazy_dude 1]

Alright. Thanks for the quick replies. I'm gonna stay away from these for now.

[vladtepes 1,060]

technically there is no official ruling on things like that.. but the state has stated that unless the mag is PERMANENTLY altered than it is still to be considered a large cap mag.. thus these are illegal IMO

[KpdPipes 388]

technically there is no official ruling on things like that.. but the state has stated that unless the mag is PERMANENTLY altered than it is still to be considered a large cap mag.. thus these are illegal IMO

 IIRC they DID specifically say that  Rivets were considered "Permanent" At one point...That's how Henderson Defense did their mags, block in he bottom, secured with a pop rivet through the floorplate......which is why i switched to Midwest PX mags, since you can get the floorplates off of those to clean them.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 IIRC they DID specifically say that  Rivets were considered "Permanent" At one point...That's how Henderson Defense did their mags, block in he bottom, secured with a pop rivet through the floorplate......which is why i switched to Midwest PX mags, since you can get the floorplates off of those to clean them.

 

 

the only thing I ever saw was the following...

 

“Large capacity ammunition magazine” means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a “large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a “large capacity ammunition magazine."

 

to me.. it is fairly clear that MOST modified large cap mags sold in NJ are in fact technically illegal by that standard.. 

 

permanent indicates a state of unable to be modified.. a rivet hardly meets that burden.. 

[n4p226r 105]

the only thing I ever saw was the following...

 

 

to me.. it is fairly clear that MOST modified large cap mags sold in NJ are in fact technically illegal by that standard.. 

 

permanent indicates a state of unable to be modified.. a rivet hardly meets that burden.. 

 

 

the nj laws in general are a joke.  there is no such thing as a magazine that is converted down to 15 rounds that someone can say is impossible to ever hold more.  even a cut down pmag could always be fused together with another (or the original) piece of plastic and be made to work if the person was determined enough.  forget the fact that you can put 17 9mm in a glock .40 mag and it functions fine

[vladtepes 1,060]

the nj laws in general are a joke.  there is no such thing as a magazine that is converted down to 15 rounds that someone can say is impossible to ever hold more.  even a cut down pmag could always be fused together with another (or the original) piece of plastic and be made to work if the person was determined enough.  forget the fact that you can put 17 9mm in a glock .40 mag and it functions fine

While I agree... I think you have to consider the burden of proving your innocence... A mag that is cut down is going to be far harder to get a conviction on than one with a pop rivet...

[Avalanche 42]

technically there is no official ruling on things like that.. but the state has stated that unless the mag is PERMANENTLY altered than it is still to be considered a large cap mag.. thus these are illegal IMO

 

 

Well, not for anything but most pinned mags are easily unpinned.  I'm not sure that anything is PERMANENT when modified to restrict capacity.    The only PERMANENT option is to buy a 10 round short mag.

[SJG 253]

If you have to damage or destroy the magazine to undue the modification so that it will not function as intended you are good to go. However, there are modifications to limit capacity, that would not result in significant damage or destruction of the magazine that might also suffice---- provided they are not easily undone--- and therein lies the dispute. Unfortunately, in the absence of an Appellate Court opinion on the issue, there is no definitive answer.

[Dan 177]

I would say they are legal. Just like MidwestPX 15/20 mags, where blind pins are used. One would have to destructively modify the magazine in order to exceed 15 rounds. IMO the spirit of the law is to prevent people from temporarily blocking mags that can be undone by using your hands or simple tools in a short amount of time. Like opening the bottom and pulling out a dowel, or a push-button slide that blocks the follower.

 

Of course its IMO and open to interpretation as some people here feel it is good and others do not. Its a comfort level that anyone living in NJ would have to be willing to accept. It all comes down to convincing the jury if a prosecutor really wanted to try to push something like this. They would have to argue that taking a grinder and drill to the mag to unblock it means that it is not permanent. If you think that risk is too much, move along.

[illy 1]

It needs to be "permanently modified" at 15 rounds. Only SOME JUDGE can decide if thats permanent enough to own

Edited

[vladtepes 1,060]

I would say they are legal. Just like MidwestPX 15/20 mags, where blind pins are used. One would have to destructively modify the magazine in order to exceed 15 rounds. IMO the spirit of the law is to prevent people from temporarily blocking mags that can be undone by using your hands or simple tools in a short amount of time. Like opening the bottom and pulling out a dowel, or a push-button slide that blocks the follower.

 

Of course its IMO and open to interpretation as some people here feel it is good and others do not. Its a comfort level that anyone living in NJ would have to be willing to accept. It all comes down to convincing the jury if a prosecutor really wanted to try to push something like this. They would have to argue that taking a grinder and drill to the mag to unblock it means that it is not permanent. If you think that risk is too much, move along.

 

 

 

"Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly

therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine."

[PK90 3,570]

I think the bases on those mags are also glued on.

[Dan 177]

Pin is different from a rivet. Of course everyone can interpret that 50 different ways also.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Rivet is legal, I have bought mags in Jersey from LGS that have a rivet. I specifically asked they said ATF approved method. I saved the receipt just in case.

[PK90 3,570]

Rivet is legal, I have bought mags in Jersey from LGS that have a rivet. I specifically asked they said ATF approved method. I saved the receipt just in case.

 

Does your receipt say it is ATF Approved?

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

[Dan 177]

In NJ, we deal in lots of gray. If the rivet looks or sounds "temporary" to you, don't do it. If you feel you could argue that it is permanent if you ever did find yourself in court, then go for it. The bottom line is that there is zero case law when it comes to any kind of altered magazine that I know of. Until some starts hitting the books, its all up for grabs besides using a "piece of wood or a pin" that is expressly stated in the NJAC as being unacceptable as permanent.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Does your receipt say it is ATF Approved? Sent from an undisclosed location.

no it says I bought them from a NJ store in NJ. So at least I can prove I didn't buy them out of state. They were made complaint from the place I bought them from. And came with my gun, I remember having to sign a paper saying they mags were made complaint on premises before I took possession of them. They also fitted the stock where I wanted it and pinned it for me before i left. I also bought some steel mags for my AK variant there as well also sold to me with a rivet in it. What I do know is you cant load more than 15 rounds in them, and the rivet cant be removed without drilling it. I'm sure any magazine made complaint can some way be altered. A hot knife, (basically a soldering iron with an exacto knife blade in it) can cut through a glued plastic mag seam in a second or two. Krazy glue it back together and you now have a 30 rounder once you rip the block out. Whats permanent about that?

[PK90 3,570]

You will here no compliants from me.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

[son of sam 9]

All my mags are made as 10rnds.  You could easily go bankrupt trying to defend yourself in court over saving $20 on a mag thats open to interpretation.