acceptable gun shop markup?

[flank 12]

So sometime I drive by this gun shop near work and I decided i'd stop in today and check them out. I was curious to see what their price was on a S&W MP-15 sport (nj neutered of course) and was a bit shock/horrified when I saw the price tag at $800. I can order this rifle from buds for ~$630 shipped and ffl/nics xfer for $50 so like $680 without tax (idk if there even is any tax on the rifle). Id like to support local shops but damn thats a $120 difference... This is also my first time browsing a NJ gun shop so im not sure if I just bend over and accept that type of price markup as the norm??

Just curious, in your opinion what is acceptable NJ gun shop price markups?

[BlueLineFish 615]

The one from buds was nj compliant

[67gtonut 847]

LGS have much more direct overhead and less buying power then someplace like Bud's .....    BUT .... some of our NJGF Vendors here can be very close if not match Bud's I bet...... 

[Joe P. 4]

i see this also, not everywhere , but generally smaller gun shops .. they put full MSRP price on the tag , and tell anyone looking at or shopping for that particular item that by paying cash they can get the product somewhat cheaper. 

[MidwestPX 172]

Acceptable mark up is what the market will bear.  Too much and people won't buy, too little and shop won't keep lights on.  "Acceptable" is subjective as your ability to see, handle, and physically check out a firearm prior to purchasing has a different value to different people.  You may also receive service at the LGS that you won't at Buds such as being shown how to maintain and service your firearm.  The LGS may also be of assistance should your firearm have issues/malfunctions.  

[Maksim 1,504]

What Troy said.

 

stores vary.  Prices can be, and are all over the map.  For new guns, a bit more than used.

 

There is a saying in the gun world... How do you get a $1 million dollar gun business? Start with $10 million. =)

 

Granted, the past few years have been through the roof thanks to a few nut jobs and Obama.

 

Most dealers will make money when they buy the gun, not when they sell.  The prices they pay for used guns will typically be 50% of book value, and can then be very competitive. 

 

On new guns, most dealers, take Buds for instance, will only make $5 to $10 a gun, but they deal in large volume.  Local vendors do not do anywhere close to what Bud's does. 

 

In the past few years, some manufactuers put the screw to buds because of their drop shipping, so I would say the price difference has come in quite a bit. 

 

You do have a few old school stores, anywhere for that matter, that still start with the VERY high prices, expecting people to haggle down.  Others, like most vendors on the forum, will respect you enough to give you the best price up front.

 

Lastly, going back to the money made on the buy... the prices on AR's have plummeted recently, so... 2 years ago... or was a year?  When Sandy hook happened, $1,000 for an M&P 15 Sport was a GREAT deal.  So that store might of been stuck with the rifles from that time ago when they paid a lot more for them.

[ChrisJM981 924]

I've purchased firearms from Forum Vendors and paid what Bud's was asking, even factoring in shipping and tax. Not to mention Tony @ TJ Sporting Arms then pinned the stock to a comfortable length for me. I've also paid over $100 more for a gun at a brick & mortar store, and I wasn't even thanked for my business or patience after he couldn't find the case, magazines, & accessories for almost 45 min.

 

Edit: My point is good customer service can be had from a forum vendor at a lower cost than some LGS.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

Also, please try to understand that in most cases (though not in the NJ compliant M&P Sport)

NJ Dealers have to spend money to convert most of the guns to NJ compliance. Though I am

sure members will pipe in with "It doesn't cost more than a few bucks to get the gun compliant"

but that isn't always the case and besides parts there is time (Time is money).

 

There are other benefits to purchasing from a local gun shop in that if you have a problem

wit ha gun you bought from your dealer, they should offer to return for repair / replacement 

at no cost to you. If you buy on-line and use a dealer for a transfer, he is not obligated to handle

your return w/o a fee (transfer, handling, ect.)

 

Then there is set-up, instructions (this is how you break it down, this is how you clean it, ect.).

 

The long term business relationship between a loyal customer and his dealer should far outweigh

a few dollars saved through the internet (at least in my opinion).

 

 

And please don't think I'm defending ALL dealers, as there are good and bad in all professions.

I'm just saying not to stereotype all dealers as money mongers because there are some decent

dealer on this forum, you just need to search for the one that is right for you............

[oneshot 45]

Every gun shop i have visited in NJ has been over priced ,didn't matter if it was a big shop or a small shop.

  I have purchased guns from LGS many times, but i won't anymore when i can save a considerable amount of money.

 All guns come with an owners manual, i'm capable of interpreting  it. For a couple of bucks i get the insurance in case

there is a problem when i take delivery. So if you are new to guns than i suggest you buy from a LGS . I've been around guns

a long time,not that i know everything but I'm confident enough to buy online and save the coin. I purchased my last glock from a LGS and i mean that was the last time i will

 buy local unless it was an extraordinary deal.

[brucin 923]

So sometime I drive by this gun shop near work and I decided i'd stop in today and check them out. I was curious to see what their price was on a S&W MP-15 sport (nj neutered of course) and was a bit shock/horrified when I saw the price tag at $800. I can order this rifle from buds for ~$630 shipped and ffl/nics xfer for $50 so like $680 without tax (idk if there even is any tax on the rifle). Id like to support local shops but damn thats a $120 difference... This is also my first time browsing a NJ gun shop so im not sure if I just bend over and accept that type of price markup as the norm??

Just curious, in your opinion what is acceptable NJ gun shop price markups?

RTSP has them in stock for $700.

 

Disclaimer: I'm a member and shop there.

[Maksim 1,504]

Also, please try to understand that in most cases (though not in the NJ compliant M&P Sport)

NJ Dealers have to spend money to convert most of the guns to NJ compliance. Though I am

sure members will pipe in with "It doesn't cost more than a few bucks to get the gun compliant"

but that isn't always the case and besides parts there is time (Time is money).

 

There are other benefits to purchasing from a local gun shop in that if you have a problem

wit ha gun you bought from your dealer, they should offer to return for repair / replacement 

at no cost to you. If you buy on-line and use a dealer for a transfer, he is not obligated to handle

your return w/o a fee (transfer, handling, ect.)

 

Then there is set-up, instructions (this is how you break it down, this is how you clean it, ect.).

 

The long term business relationship between a loyal customer and his dealer should far outweigh

a few dollars saved through the internet (at least in my opinion).

 

 

And please don't think I'm defending ALL dealers, as there are good and bad in all professions.

I'm just saying not to stereotype all dealers as money mongers because there are some decent

dealer on this forum, you just need to search for the one that is right for you............

 

Jack nailed it on a few big parts.

 

Every gun shop i have visited in NJ has been over priced ,didn't matter if it was a big shop or a small shop.

  I have purchased guns from LGS many times, but i won't anymore when i can save a considerable amount of money.

 All guns come with an owners manual, i'm capable of interpreting  it. For a couple of bucks i get the insurance in case

there is a problem when i take delivery. So if you are new to guns than i suggest you buy from a LGS . I've been around guns

a long time,not that i know everything but I'm confident enough to buy online and save the coin. I purchased my last glock from a LGS and i mean that was the last time i will

 buy local unless it was an extraordinary deal.

 

I do have a very big problem with this statement.... particularly when you say EVERY gun shop.  Well, what type of shops have you visited?  Also, what is a considerable amount of money?

 

so I have bought a LOT of guns over the 6 years I have been around guns and particularly since starting the forum.  Granted the last year I have slowed down quite a bit, but I think in 2012, I went through 70 or so guns. lol.  I got nothing on a few other members though.

 

With used guns, which is mostly what I buy, it really depends on inventory, and in 95% of cases, buying used guns, I found CHEAPER dealers in stores than online.  I got awesome deals on used guns from Tony and others.  I found great deals in Brick and Mortar stores at Cabelas in NH and TX, and other stores in Maine.  

 

New Guns, the forum vendors were able to get me lower in all costs than buying online and shipping it here, in all cases but one or two. 

 

Want to talk awesome deals I got?

 

$550 or so for a Colt Diamondback at cheyenne.

$xxx for an amazing condition 1975 Browning Higher Power from Tony.

$??? for a brand new Desert Eagle 1911 from Paul during his screw NJ sale.

 

I have had seen other great deals that people got at forum vendors, etc.

 

Bottom line though... if you want to save money, you buy used. =)  

[millsan1 3]

What is reasonable?  I don't know, how much do you make at your job?  What if I told you I can hire somebody to do the same job cheaper?  Put in that perspective, it changes the thought process, I hope.

[NightOwl 0]

So sometime I drive by this gun shop near work and I decided i'd stop in today and check them out. I was curious to see what their price was on a S&W MP-15 sport (nj neutered of course) and was a bit shock/horrified when I saw the price tag at $800. I can order this rifle from buds for ~$630 shipped and ffl/nics xfer for $50 so like $680 without tax (idk if there even is any tax on the rifle). Id like to support local shops but damn thats a $120 difference... This is also my first time browsing a NJ gun shop so im not sure if I just bend over and accept that type of price markup as the norm??

Just curious, in your opinion what is acceptable NJ gun shop price markups?

 

I was in market for same rifle recently. Tanner was selling NJ compliant MP15 Sports for ($560 + 6% Tax + $20 for PICS) = $620 out the door. Most LGS were 30% more or higher (i.e. $700ish + tax + NICS).

[Smokin .50 1,907]

As a business owner these threads make my blood boil!  In essence, I think that most shooters are either stupid, cheap, or BOTH!  Let me explain:  Some here are perfectly willing to "feel-up" the merchandise and then, after being explained everything there is to know about a gun, will go order it over the net and pay a transfer fee.  If THAT happens enough, Mr. Mom and Pop Store is outta business.  When enough small stores go out of business, all you'll have left to "feel-up" is to wait in line at a place like Dicks for one of their employees to find somebody with a Pink Card (if that's even possible--since sometimes it's NOT and they not only can't sell you the gun, they can't even show it to you)!

 

There are a few brick and mortar stores that beat you up, price-wise.  Some offer GREAT service, others, meh, not so much.  

 

How many guns a day have to be sold in order to keep the lights on?  Multiply THAT figure by 300 (figuring a 6 day-a-week business with 2 week vacation) for every day of the year.  Now figure how many times each floor model has to be shown in order for a sale to take place.  That's a lot of fingerprints needin' wiped-off a lot of guns.......and SOMEBODY has to do it!  Last time I looked, labor wasn't free.  Same goes for the laundry list of business expenses incurred for every business, from consumables to corporate taxes to inventory to the guy who cleans the carpets or changes the runners.

 

With all of the mandatory rules and regulations imposed on businesses in NJ it's a wonder there are ANY gun shops left!  10-15% is a very thin margin!

 

Dave

Business Owner

[bhunted 887]

Dave, don't even waste your time. It's been said time and time again. It would be so much easier if they'd just go buy it online without coming here and botching after they do... I agree with you and they all act like this is something new.

The big box stores ruined the mom and pop and the internet is ruining them all. It's very hard to be small time when the biggies beat you up and JQP refuses to support the little man.

But what really pisses me off is how much they piss without understanding wholesale vs retail.... Small vs large.

 

 

As a business owner these threads make my blood boil! In essence, I think that most shooters are either stupid, cheap, or BOTH! Let me explain: Some here are perfectly willing to "feel-up" the merchandise and then, after being explained everything there is to know about a gun, will go order it over the net and pay a transfer fee. If THAT happens enough, Mr. Mom and Pop Store is outta business. When enough small stores go out of business, all you'll have left to "feel-up" is to wait in line at a place like Dicks for one of their employees to find somebody with a Pink Card (if that's even possible--since sometimes it's NOT and they not only can't sell you the gun, they can't even show it to you)!

 

There are a few brick and mortar stores that beat you up, price-wise. Some offer GREAT service, others, meh, not so much.

 

How many guns a day have to be sold in order to keep the lights on? Multiply THAT figure by 300 (figuring a 6 day-a-week business with 2 week vacation) for every day of the year. Now figure how many times each floor model has to be shown in order for a sale to take place. That's a lot of fingerprints needin' wiped-off a lot of guns.......and SOMEBODY has to do it! Last time I looked, labor wasn't free. Same goes for the laundry list of business expenses incurred for every business, from consumables to corporate taxes to inventory to the guy who cleans the carpets or changes the runners.

 

With all of the mandatory rules and regulations imposed on businesses in NJ it's a wonder there are ANY gun shops left! 10-15% is a very thin margin!

 

Dave

Business Owner

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

[JT Custom Guns 956]

Every gun shop i have visited in NJ has been over priced ,didn't matter if it was a big shop or a small shop.

  I have purchased guns from LGS many times, but i won't anymore when i can save a considerable amount of money.

 All guns come with an owners manual, i'm capable of interpreting  it. For a couple of bucks i get the insurance in case

there is a problem when i take delivery. So if you are new to guns than i suggest you buy from a LGS . I've been around guns

a long time,not that i know everything but I'm confident enough to buy online and save the coin. I purchased my last glock from a LGS and i mean that was the last time i will

 buy local unless it was an extraordinary deal.

 

I can  save a lot of money buying items at WalMart, I can  save money buying things made in China, ect.

I speak for myself, and should not / do not expect you to do something simply because I do - but I choose 

to purchase form my local Hardware store over Home Depot, I choose to buy American whenever I can even

if it costs a few buck more, but hey, that's just me!

You are a price only shopper, and are entitled to be one - just don't expect to ever have that one on one relationship

with your own personal dealer and realize that someday, when / if all the little shops are gone, you will be delegated

to only dealing on-line and at the mercy of the prices that market will bear.................

[JT Custom Guns 956]

As a business owner these threads make my blood boil!  In essence, I think that most shooters are either stupid, cheap, or BOTH!  Let me explain:  Some here are perfectly willing to "feel-up" the merchandise and then, after being explained everything there is to know about a gun, will go order it over the net and pay a transfer fee.  If THAT happens enough, Mr. Mom and Pop Store is outta business.  When enough small stores go out of business, all you'll have left to "feel-up" is to wait in line at a place like Dicks for one of their employees to find somebody with a Pink Card (if that's even possible--since sometimes it's NOT and they not only can't sell you the gun, they can't even show it to you)!

 

There are a few brick and mortar stores that beat you up, price-wise.  Some offer GREAT service, others, meh, not so much.  

 

How many guns a day have to be sold in order to keep the lights on?  Multiply THAT figure by 300 (figuring a 6 day-a-week business with 2 week vacation) for every day of the year.  Now figure how many times each floor model has to be shown in order for a sale to take place.  That's a lot of fingerprints needin' wiped-off a lot of guns.......and SOMEBODY has to do it!  Last time I looked, labor wasn't free.  Same goes for the laundry list of business expenses incurred for every business, from consumables to corporate taxes to inventory to the guy who cleans the carpets or changes the runners.

 

With all of the mandatory rules and regulations imposed on businesses in NJ it's a wonder there are ANY gun shops left!  10-15% is a very thin margin!

 

Dave

Business Owner

Well said Dave!

As a fellow small business owner - Thank you!

[bhunted 887]

I can save a lot of money buying items at WalMart, I can save money buying things made in China, ect.

I speak for myself, and should not / do not expect you to do something simply because I do - but I choose

to purchase form my local Hardware store over Home Depot, I choose to buy American whenever I can even

if it costs a few buck more, but hey, that's just me!

You are a price only shopper, and are entitled to be one - just don't expect to ever have that one on one relationship

with your own personal dealer and realize that someday, when / if all the little shops are gone, you will be delegated

to only dealing on-line and at the mercy of the prices that market will bear.................

Bingo!

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

[JTS1469 0]

Am I the only person that doesn't think 120. Is out of line? Think about it the way the laws keep changing there may come a time that buying anything online is out of the question. I honestly don't mind paying a reasonable markup because if I have a problem or need repair or just feel like asking a few questions there right there. Also if we don't support those shops they can't support their families and in the end the doors close.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

The point should be it's not known if the "NJ Dealer" is making $120.00

The OP said it was $120.00 over what he could get it for on-line.

 

The "NJ Dealer" could have purchased it at a higher price point a while ago,

they could have just got it and had to pay more just to have one in stock for

that impulse buyer, or could have bought low and jacked the livin' shit out of 

the price - I/we really don't know the facts.

 

But what I do know is that from time to time instead for a poster saying

"Hey I think ......... is out of line with their price on this gun"  we get the

'All Gun Shops in NJ are a rip off" type attitude, and that just isn't fair

to those who try to keep prices in-line and at a minimum...........

[Maksim 1,504]

Ok, being me, I am also going to give the flip side to it... also AS a business owner.

 

People cannot keep expecting that they can have the same business model and always make money.

 

Unless you are charging close to full sticker, YOU CANNOT make survive long term in the gun business.  and make good money.

 

Look, big stores (Solo, non corporate), take Cheyenne Mountain or effingers, will make money because they spend quite a bit on a good location.  Enough people will come and pay any price.  That is who they are after.

 

Most forum vendors, ala TJ, Jack, etc... have to have a different model.  Their costs have to be lower as they are left to compete on service and price.  Fortunately, they provide both... however they cannot expect to have the same volume and markups as the bigger b&m stores.  I would venture to guess that the forum makes a LARGE chunk of the total sales volume for the vendors, and they have their niche., for the large B&M, it is a drop in the bucket, if that.

 

To the other point, the business owners have no right to complain about people coming in to touch the guns.... why?  Because let's be honest, if you did not have them on display... people would not come to your store anyway.  The people who would come to you because of who you are... would buy from you anyway.

 

You have to look at it as the cost of doing business and part of your cost to acquire a client/customer.

 

Times change... just look at how many vendors got a great business going straight from the forum?  

 

No one here complains about the fair pricing and great service they get from vendors... except the big brick and mortar stores who have higher overheads... but... they are counting on a way different market.

 

With the forum, with the internet, people fortunately have a choice, and Bud's is a necessary evil that keeps prices in check.

 

If there were no forum vendors or online shops, who wants to bet that prices on AR's and ammo would not go a lot higher?

 

Every business owner knows... innovate or die.

 

Must be awesome to have a television repair business, vacuum repair, fax machine or typewriter business.  Eventually, they will die off... much like shops who expect higher prices but bring nothing to the table.... and that is a good thing.  

 

Like it or not, there are people who are price sensitive first... and that is ok, there is an outlet for that.  If your business model is not built to serve them, there is NOTHING you can do.

[Maksim 1,504]

The point should be it's not known if the "NJ Dealer" is making $120.00

The OP said it was $120.00 over what he could get it for on-line.

 

The "NJ Dealer" could have purchased it at a higher price point a while ago,

they could have just got it and had to pay more just to have one in stock for

that impulse buyer, or could have bought low and jacked the livin' shit out of 

the price - I/we really don't know the facts.

 

But what I do know is that from time to time instead for a poster saying

"Hey I think ......... is out of line with their price on this gun"  we get the

'All Gun Shops in NJ are a rip off" type attitude, and that just isn't fair

to those who try to keep prices in-line and at a minimum...........

 

Jack,.... bucket 3.  No control, no influence. Let it be. =) Can lead a horse to water... 

[Maksim 1,504]

The point should be it's not known if the "NJ Dealer" is making $120.00

The OP said it was $120.00 over what he could get it for on-line.

 

The "NJ Dealer" could have purchased it at a higher price point a while ago,

they could have just got it and had to pay more just to have one in stock for

that impulse buyer, or could have bought low and jacked the livin' shit out of 

the price - I/we really don't know the facts.

 

But what I do know is that from time to time instead for a poster saying

"Hey I think ......... is out of line with their price on this gun"  we get the

'All Gun Shops in NJ are a rip off" type attitude, and that just isn't fair

to those who try to keep prices in-line and at a minimum...........

... and no, $120 difference on an AR is what I would expect.

 

In all honesty... if he asked the local dealer, he would likely match the price anyway.... to the After buds shipped price, +2% credit card, unless cash + nics + transfer + tax.

[kirk2022 43]

I look at it this way. I have only bought 1 of my many guns online. That was from GB. I did that because I wanted this certain gun and it is old 1984. I used A gunsmith here in town that belongs to our range. For the transfer.

Now when it comes to buying its local or nearby. I have been dealing at 1 shop for probably 20 years. He takes care of his customers, answers questions, and just shoots the bull when you are there. Or when you need his assistance. Just like  most of the private shops I have been in or conversed with thru this forum.

Does the local shop charge more? (no matter who it is)   Sure they do. Do they have the sales that buds and the other mailorder sites have? no.. Do they have bills to pay,families to feed? Sure they do. Just like you and me.

My dollar goes local, I've worked hard for it, But so do the guys that are on here and thruout Jersey.

Do I pay A different price then the person that walks in off the street at my local shop. Sure I do. Not A big difference but still A bit less.   But another thing, I pay cash, Why would I use my credit card when I know it cost the shop owner A percentage of that sale.

Sorry for the rant but, If you want service then support your local shop. If you want bottom dollar and no service then use them. Just dont complain when you walk into your local shop and say hey I got A problem with that gun I bought from (insert name) Could you help?    And the help isnt there.

Just sayin

[oneshot 45]

 BTW i have spent thousands on accessories at LGS and i know im paying more than what i can get it for "online"

   So now i'm "stupid,cheap" ? How about you keep your insults to yourself . And to assume that people dont understand retail vs wholesale is pretty ballsy Bhunted.and evidently you get pissed off a lot. You apparently think you know everything. Except how to have a conversation without trying to insult someone in some way. God effing forbid someone doesn't agree with the rank and file on here. ZYou guys are clearly all much smarter and financially superior to me..i'm done with this shit show of a thread

[RecessedFilter 222]

You should have no problem finding the M&P15 for under $700 at a NJ gunshop. I know Jim Flynn could order them for like $610 a few months ago. You just have to look. The key sentence in your post is "this is also my first time browsing a NJ gun shop". You should do a firearms search for it on the forum and I'm sure vendors can do much better than the shop you went to.

 

I buy a lot of used guns through auctions or through forums but when i buy new, I always try and buy locally. Plus if you start buying guns locally, most of the time those shops will start giving you a little better prices if you continue going to them. Plus you can count on them if anything goes wrong or if anything is iffy with your gun. Or even need some pointers or advice.

[RecessedFilter 222]

Every gun shop i have visited in NJ has been over priced ,didn't matter if it was a big shop or a small shop.

  I have purchased guns from LGS many times, but i won't anymore when i can save a considerable amount of money.

 All guns come with an owners manual, i'm capable of interpreting  it. For a couple of bucks i get the insurance in case

there is a problem when i take delivery. So if you are new to guns than i suggest you buy from a LGS . I've been around guns

a long time,not that i know everything but I'm confident enough to buy online and save the coin. I purchased my last glock from a LGS and i mean that was the last time i will

 buy local unless it was an extraordinary deal.

 

Some will disagree with me but I this puts a bad taste in my mouth. The fact that you can get most guns through our vendors or a local shop of yours for close, if not the same price, as cheaper online stores makes no sense why you wouldn't want to. And if you say that you can't find good deals, then you're not looking around. 

[Maksim 1,504]

2 words "anger management" 

 take your meds

 

Wow, I missed this stuff.

 

I really don't think anyone is losing sleep over this. =)

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I don't know, I don't think it has to be completely one way or the other.  I've bought most of my guns from LGS's, many of them forum vendors.  The forum vendors have been more competitive than some of the others.  But I've also bought a few online.  Recently, I purchased something from Bud's that was more than $150 below MSRP, and they had it in stock, ready to go.  I felt slightly bad about it, but I've tried to spread it around.  One thing I have never done was to go to an LGS to "feel up" a firearm (Dave, I like that expression!), and then purchase it from a discounter. 

 

I guess in general, I like to support small, local businesses.  But sometimes it's nice to save a chunk of change for ammo and what not.

[Blacksmythe 71]

Also, please try to understand that in most cases (though not in the NJ compliant M&P Sport)

NJ Dealers have to spend money to convert most of the guns to NJ compliance. Though I am

sure members will pipe in with "It doesn't cost more than a few bucks to get the gun compliant"

but that isn't always the case and besides parts there is time (Time is money).

 

There are other benefits to purchasing from a local gun shop in that if you have a problem

wit ha gun you bought from your dealer, they should offer to return for repair / replacement 

at no cost to you. If you buy on-line and use a dealer for a transfer, he is not obligated to handle

your return w/o a fee (transfer, handling, ect.)

 

Then there is set-up, instructions (this is how you break it down, this is how you clean it, ect.).

 

The long term business relationship between a loyal customer and his dealer should far outweigh

a few dollars saved through the internet (at least in my opinion).

 

 

And please don't think I'm defending ALL dealers, as there are good and bad in all professions.

I'm just saying not to stereotype all dealers as money mongers because there are some decent

dealer on this forum, you just need to search for the one that is right for you............

I have never had a dealer show me how to do squat with any firearm in NJ. I have been thanked, I have been escorted to my vehicle,( I buy more than one at a time 80% of the time) and just recently for the last time in front of my daughter at THE BULLET HOLE ignored. I may check you out in the future. I just don't like driving 2 hours anymore.