OGAM - We're Being Lied To

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

When I was doing the research for the FPID / P2P Application Process thread, I wanted to make sure that I got the OGAM part of it correct. TJ called me on it based on what we have all been told, but looking at the statute, we have been being told incorrectly all along.

 

When OGAM first went into effect, there was much wailing, consternation and gnashing of teeth as to how long one actually had to wait between purchases. The NJSP let it be known to the dealers that day one was the day after you took possession and that you could purchase again on day 31. That is pretty much been the rule we have all been going by, and while I have no first hand experience, I imagine the NICS folks - who are used to enforce the 30 day thing - go by the same thing.

 

Now let's look at the actual statute...

 

2C:58-2,a(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period.

 

The magic word here is "within" - that word denotes inclusiveness. In other words the initial sale is included within the 30 day period. So we start counting on the day we take possession, not the day after. Once we hit 30, we can take possession again the following day. Just so we don't have to take off our shoes and socks to count, we'll use a month with 30 days in it. Let's assume that we take possession of a handgun on April 1st. By the statute you should be able to take possession of the next handgun on May 1st. You have taken delivery within the 30 day period that is April. The next allowable purchase could be made May 1st. If you take possession of another handgun on May 1st, you have not taken possession of more than one handgun in a 30 day period.

 

This is one statute that seems pretty clear, so where did this (actually) 31 day program come from?

 

Am I missing something?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[AverageJoe 95]

I never waited 31 days...always the 30th day counting the first day.

[tj462nj 32]

Bob, we were told that the first day starts tomorrow(the day after the purchase), I've had people denied for a day early, in the beginning nics was more forgiving, and they would say you can't take delivery until tomorrow, now they just deny you

[djg0770 481]

I don't want to fight the law on it's interpretation.  I want the damn thing flushed entirely.  Criminals do not go about purchasing firearms through legal methods.  They do not care about pistol permits, FPID cards, 30 days, 31 days, exemptions, NICS, mental health checks, etc etc.

 

They've done it their way for 4+ years now, has illegal handgun crime dropped one iota in NJ as a result?  We know the result without even having to look.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

As per Tony's response, The senario is as follows:

 

You purchase a HG today.

Tomorrow is day #1

On Day #30 - you can p/u another HG

 

I have had customers denied 1 day early because they miscounted as well.................

[T Bill 649]

JT, if day one is tomorrow and you can pick up another on day 30, then you have just proven what PB stated. One purchase every 30 days. What tomorrow is (day 1 or day2) is just how you look at it. Me thinks someone at NJSP needs a math lesson on counting. Oh, I agree with djg, it has to go. I hope Corzine finds his just due on the other front, but I doubt it.

[PK90 3,570]

Look at this the following way, then count your days:

 

If the law says you can not acquire a handgun within a one day period, can you acquire that gun on April 2nd? No, because it is within one day. Now count to 30. Kabeesh?

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

[djg0770 481]

We're arguing amongst ourselves about a law that shouldn't exist in the first place. 

[NJSigfan 218]

So after reading this, I have a question.

 

2C:58-2,a(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period.

 

The above statute says, you can not take delivery of a HG within 30 days. To me the key word there is DELIVERY. It does not say anything about purchasing. So why is NICS DENYING the purchase? Shouldn't we be allowed to purchase a HG at any point and just take possession on day 30?

 

I'm not saying I agree on the law, it's just a question

[Howard 538]

So after reading this, I have a question.

 

2C:58-2,a(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period.

 

The above statute says, you can not take delivery of a HG within 30 days. To me the key word there is DELIVERY. It does not say anything about purchasing. So why is NICS DENYING the purchase? Shouldn't we be allowed to purchase a HG at any point and just take possession on day 30?

 

I'm not saying I agree on the law, it's just a question

That is a very interesting question.  I am sure there are more words to the rule than what Bob has posted here, but if not I have a questions.  I read that saying that a given dealer shall not deliver more than one gun in a 30 day to a given person, it seems to say nothing about a second dealer selling a gun to said person on day two through day 29.  Unless there are more words it would seem you can buy as many as you want in the period as long as you don't buy more than one from any dealer.  I am sure there are words that kill that, but that is how I read what is posted.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

The 31 day scheme was thought-out by the same Douche that thinks a pellet gun I can buy off-the-shelf in Cabelas is the same as a silencer!

 

Since every gun store is open til 11:59 pm, if you add 24 hours to that day, it looks like THREE days later, lol!

 

Within still means WITHIN, so maybe if we can get NICS to be open 24 hrs. and find some FFL's that want to burn the midnight oil, we could screw them back at their own game.  Cause that's what this fiasco is, it's just a big game we play to jump through hoops.....

 

Dave

[BlueLineFish 615]

All this bickering about 1 day when the real problem is ogam itself. The whole thing needs to go.

[Howard 538]

All this bickering about 1 day when the real problem is ogam itself. The whole thing needs to go.

VERY GOOD POINT!!!!  I don't even understand the concept of OGAM.  I can almost understand a waiting period to buy a gun so a person does not buy one in the heat of anger - but that only applies in a Free State.  In NJ in the heat of anger you would need to get an FID and a P2P - the heat of anger would pass.  But the bigger issue is if you already have one gun, how does OGAM do anything at all.  Would you really need that second gun to do something bad - remember you already have the first one.  I guess the Idiots in the hell hole of Trenton just don't get that.

[Maksim 1,504]

VERY GOOD POINT!!!!  I don't even understand the concept of OGAM.  I can almost understand a waiting period to buy a gun so a person does not buy one in the heat of anger - but that only applies in a Free State.  In NJ in the heat of anger you would need to get an FID and a P2P - the heat of anger would pass.  But the bigger issue is if you already have one gun, how does OGAM do anything at all.  Would you really need that second gun to do something bad - remember you already have the first one.  I guess the Idiots in the hell hole of Trenton just don't get that.

 

Howard, OGAM is designed to prevent you from Straw purchasing 100 guns and then selling them to law abiding gang bangers.   This way, Only one gun a month. =P

 

They do nics on the corners of Newark, didn't you know?

[Vlad G 345]

A day up or down is what bothers you? Is an all around dumb law, but 30 or 31 ... if that makes you angry, I think you are not paying attention to a lot of thing that make me far more restless.

[45Doll 5,873]

Hi Bob. The 31 day count 'mistake' comes from designating the day you buy a handgun as day 1, instead of day 0. This is a classic mistake made in computer land when writing counting algorithms. The day you buy a handgun is day 0. The next day is day one and so on. On day 30 you can buy another.

 

I have always read the statute literally; in any 30 day window there can only be one day where you purchased a handgun.

 

If you look at any calendar that visually means four weeks plus two days. 28 + 2 = 30.

 

Is the law stupid? Yes.

Do I wish to comply with the law? Yes.

Do I want to wait an extra day? NO!

 

Amazing; works every time!

[HBecwithFn7 296]

So after reading this, I have a question.

 

2C:58-2,a(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period.

 

The above statute says, you can not take delivery of a HG within 30 days. To me the key word there is DELIVERY. It does not say anything about purchasing. So why is NICS DENYING the purchase? Shouldn't we be allowed to purchase a HG at any point and just take possession on day 30?

 

I'm not saying I agree on the law, it's just a question

 

Is NICS denying the "purchase," or the "delivery?"   I could purchase a hand gun, have it transfered to my FFL, but I might not be able to take "delivery" on it until OGAM expires (whenever it does). I guess the problem is that, for many/most of us, we are "purchasing" from the same source (FFL) as we accept delivery, so it looks like NICS is denying a "purchase."

 

But, I also agree that it's a silly law, and there only to impose more "control" over things that shouldn't be controlled, and don't help in the true fight against violent crime.

[PK90 3,570]

NJ NICS is acting like Big Brother and denying the check if done within the 30 days. That is okay by me. It puts the liability on them.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

[JT Custom Guns 956]

So after reading this, I have a question.

 

2C:58-2,a(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period.

 

The above statute says, you can not take delivery of a HG within 30 days. To me the key word there is DELIVERY. It does not say anything about purchasing. So why is NICS DENYING the purchase? Shouldn't we be allowed to purchase a HG at any point and just take possession on day 30?

 

I'm not saying I agree on the law, it's just a question

NICS does not approve or deny a 'purchase" in that you can purchase (pay for) a gun at anytime; it's when you are

eligible to pick it up that NICS can deny.

NICS confirms to the dealers that the person picking up the weapon is eligible at that time to take possession........

[bhunted 887]

NICS does not approve or deny a 'purchase" in that you can purchase (pay for) a gun at anytime; it's when you are

eligible to pick it up that NICS can deny.

NICS confirms to the dealers that the person picking up the weapon is eligible at that time to take possession........

Exact-Atically! What's the hurry? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Punch buggy blue, no punch backs!

Sheesh. It's a dumb law that just needs to go. But bickering over a days time? Big whoop!

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

[NJSigfan 218]

NICS does not approve or deny a 'purchase" in that you can purchase (pay for) a gun at anytime; it's when you are

eligible to pick it up that NICS can deny.

NICS confirms to the dealers that the person picking up the weapon is eligible at that time to take possession........

Ah okay. Thank you for the clarification. For the record, I'm all for doing away with the law in its entirety. I just curious since people were focusing on the "purchase" VS delivery aspect

[ryan_j 0]

31 days is bad enough but I've heard of people being denied at 33 days. 

 

I think we should find a few persons who have been denied and sue.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Bob, I agree with you that the key word in the statute is "within."  I have given this some thought in the past, and it seems to be that if you count the day of purchase as Day One, then you would be eligible again on Day 31.  Or to use your calendar example, if you bought a handgun on April 1st, you could buy another one on May 1st.

 

If they wanted it to be 31 days, they would have said something like, "Thirty days must elapse between purchase dates."  Since they did not choose that language, presumably for good reason, we must conclude that one can make another purchase on the 31st day.  

 

To those who question what the big deal is about a day or two, it can be huge when one is trying to use a batch of P2P's within the required 90 days, or 180 days with the extension.  (Which, BTW, is another dumb law.)

[PK90 3,570]

So, if 4 permits were issued on April 1st, can someone use 4 permits in the 90 days if the first acquisition was on the issue date?

 

Example:

Day 0 (Apr 1st)

Day 30 (May 1st)

Day 60 (May 31st)

Day 90 (June 30th)

[Vlad G 345]

You guys should just demand to measure the time between purchases as 2592 kiloseconds. 

[djg0770 481]

So, if 4 permits were issued on April 1st, can someone use 4 permits in the 90 days if the first acquisition was on the issue date?

 

Example:

Day 0 (Apr 1st)

Day 30 (May 1st)

Day 60 (May 31st)

Day 90 (June 30th)

 

Problem is that my town dates the permit when the permit is typed - the chief signs it whenever and then they send a letter to pick it up - sometimes that takes 7-14 days.  POOF there goes the WHOLE calculation about how to do 4 permits in 90 days.

 

Didn't stop me from being an ass and seeing whether they would really follow the law this time.  I put in for 10, without an exemption.

[Newtonian 453]

Jeez. Buy the gun. Count thirty full days. Add one for good luck. What's the problem? 

 

Even if you wait an extra week, you can easily get 3 handguns within the allotted 90 days. 

[PK90 3,570]

But...but...but...

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

[Pythagoras 2]

Hi Bob. The 31 day count 'mistake' comes from designating the day you buy a handgun as day 1, instead of day 0. This is a classic mistake made in computer land when writing counting algorithms. The day you buy a handgun is day 0. The next day is day one and so on. On day 30 you can buy another.

 

I have always read the statute literally; in any 30 day window there can only be one day where you purchased a handgun.

 As a fellow programmer, this ^

 

A day up or down is what bothers you? Is an all around dumb law, but 30 or 31 ... if that makes you angry, I think you are not paying attention to a lot of thing that make me far more restless.

 But more importantly, this ^

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You guys should just demand to measure the time between purchases as 2592 kiloseconds.

[ryan_j 0]

Jeez. Buy the gun. Count thirty full days. Add one for good luck. What's the problem? 

 

Even if you wait an extra week, you can easily get 3 handguns within the allotted 90 days. 

 

What if I needed four guns?