.45 Auto Reloading - Plated Ammo Question

[ReadDude 0]

So, I have recently finally gotten possession of all the materials needed to reload .45 Auto for my 1911 and a Sig P250. I shot mostly through the full sized Sig P250 with a 4.7" barrel.

 

I am using Titegroup powder loading either 185gr plated Berry's bullets or 200gr Frontier CMJ with CCI primers and some new Starline brass to make is less variable to start).

 

So, finding load data for plated bullets is a bit tricky, but based on the published info, I loaded samples of the following:

 

5.0gr for both the Berry's and the Frontier CMJ.

 

- All the load data for for the FMJ 200gr bullets had a low end of 5.0gr and Frontier states you should use  FMJ data from Hornday 9th Edition.

- The info from Berry's was to use mid-range data for lead or low end FMJ data, so I went with low end FMJ from Hornady 9th Edition and the Hodgdon website.

 

 

I took, them to the range and had a successful session, with a couple of observations.

 

1.) the Berry's bullets load seemed to not burn all of the powder, leaving some residue in the barrel after firing.

2.) one of the cartridges did not feed and got stuck in the chamber, i am guessing it was not sized properly.

 

So, one, is unburned powder a sign, I overloaded the charge? Or is it a sign that burn rate on the powder is not appropriate for the bullet?

 

As to sizing, I did not size the new brass before loading, only expanded them. Do most of you size even new brass? I am thinking I need to do that after this experience with one cartridge out of 40 rounds.

 

Thanks for any insight.

 

RD

[GRIZ 3,369]

Not familiar with the powder you're using but unburned powder can be the result of loads too light. You need to size new brass. What was your accuracy like?

[Mr.Stu 1,918]

What Griz said. Was there any sootiness on the outside of the cases? That is another sign of an underpowered load.

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[ReadDude 0]

i was shooting off hand, so I can't say to too much but the groups were consistent with when shooting factory loads (3-4" at 5 yards).

 

The rounds had decent recoil, and not light as far as I could tell. So, unburned powder is usually a sign of under pressure on the load. It was the low end of the range. I will tick it up a .1 in a couple steps with a few rounds and experiment a bit.  BTW, after asking this question, i did some google searches and on the highroad.org the comments were consistent with your observation (and more black soot on the casings, which i had too)

 

I guess that is good feedback. As I noted, I am starting very conservatively since the plated bullets don't really have official load data around.

 

BTW, the same load on the 200gr burned cleaner, but that make sense as the bigger bullets usually take a slightly lower range on the powder.

 

As to the sizing, lesson learned :-)

 

Thanks!

[T Bill 649]

Plated bullets can be loaded in the mid range of any published loaded jacketed ammo safely. That is if the range is say 4.8 to 5.4 then a 5.1 will be fine for starters.  You will then need to fine tune to find what your gun likes the best.

[noylj 5]

AFAIK, you load UP TO mid-range jacketed for plated. You do not START at mid-range.

Also, comparing any two manuals will show often a significant different in starting and max loads, so I start withe the lowest starting load I can find.

So, for 185gn lead bullets, I show a starting load of 4.2gn and max of 5.2gn. Thus, I would say that you MAY be close to max load, but that is only one manual. Your gun and bullet and other variables may be a light load or not.

For 200gn lead bullets, I show start loads of 3.8-5.0gn and max loads of 4.7-5.9gn.

For 185gn jacketed, I show start loads of 4.7-5.1gn and max load os 5.5-6.5gn.

For 200gn jacketed, I show start load of 4.3-4.8gn and max loads of 5.2-5.9gn.

Thus, I never jump into a load and always start at a safe starting load.

Richard Lee's #2 Loading Manual has data for plated bullets.

[Shocker 150]

The Sig or the 1911 jammed? I found that I needed to post-size my plated bullet rounds with the Lee FCD to run smoothly in my 1911.

 

I didn't see if you were seating and crimping together but when I tried that it cut the plating. So I crimp and final-size as a separate final step.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

You should start your load in the mid range of lead bullets, for the love of god do NOT start in the mid range for jacketed bullets. A hot plated load should* fall somewhere in the low end of jacketed data.

 

stating to start mid way in jacketed ammo would assume that plated is stronger then jacket, which is most certainly is NOT... the rule of thumb for plated is that it can be loaded somewhere between lead and jacketed.

 

Those Titegroup loads shouldn't have a problem burning the powder... Titegroup burns hot and fast, not many powders are like it. It also isnt clean burning... do your bullets have an exposed base?

[ReadDude 0]

Thanks for the additional feedback. I have carefully reviewed the source data I was using (Hornady 9th, Lyman 49th and the Hodgdon website.) I think i ended up seating the bullets a bit too high. I assume FP plated bullets probably better match SWC than HP type bullets. I was using COL lengths of 1.213" from the HP instead of a 1.135 for the SWC. That may have actually been a part of the reason for the feed issue.

 

Would having the bullets seated too high have an impact on the burn rate? I assume that additional space in the case would have an impact, but again I am not too sure of the exact physics. My uneducated guess would be too much room to start and the burning gases expand quickly and the powder spreads before fully burning)

 

So what do folks use for a COL for Plated 185gr FP bullets? Would the 1.135 be a good place to go?

 

I am thinking of reseating to the shorter length and trying again at 5.0gr before changing things.  I also assume that a shorter length will definitely raise pressures since the volume is smaller so very important to stay on the low end of the powder range.

 

BTW, i also reviewed the powder charges, Lyman and Hodgdon both agree that 4.9 or 5.0 is the starting for FMJ bullets, that was the basis my using 5.0 as my starting point. Interestingly, the Hornady book has a much higher start for the Jacketed SWC than Hodgdon for the same bullet (5.0gr for Hodgdon vs. 5.5gr for Hornady, with the same COL on apparently the same Hornady JSWC bullet, but with different primers (Federal for Hodgdon and WLP for the Hornady recipe)

 

This .45 Auto reloading is way more complicated than when I started reloading .30-06 for my M1 Garand. I found perfect matches for supplies to match the Hornady book's M1 tested recipes!

[Shocker 150]

More free space in the case absolutely affects the burn. If you remember high school chemistry PV=nRT if you increase volume either pressure and/or temperature will change (yes I know the products don't follow the ideal gas law per se but its a useful approximation). Incomplete burn might be an issue too.

 

I've never had success with FP because I had to seat them soooo deep to pass the plunk test in my 1911.

[ReadDude 0]

BTW, I did a bit of digging on 1911forum.com, handloads.com and a few other random places. It seems that 1.195" appears to be the consensus length for 185gr Berry's bullets. I tried the shorter 1.1.35 and they were seated way too deep in the dummies I created.  I am going to go forward with 1.195" in the next rounds I load.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Keep in mind a small increase in seating depth causes a more drastic increase in pressure. Adding a few tenths of a grain in a charge of 5 grains not so much.

[ReadDude 0]

Thanks Griz, I am going to continue with 5.0gr with the shorter 1.19" length (already loaded for tomorrow!)

After comparing the 185gr Berry's to the 200gr Frontiers, it turns out they are about .06" different in length and I was loading the Frontiers at 1.245", so 1.19" is almost exactly the same depth in the case for the Berry's (I think I am getting a handle on this :-)

 

As has been said many times, there is nothing like hand-loading to really start to understand all the working parts of firing a successful round down range!

[ReadDude 0]

So, I have to provide a Range Report:

 

Loaded up some Titegroup at 5.0. 5.1 and 5.2 with the Berry's FP 185gr bullets at 1.190" OAL/COL and headed out for an afternoon at EFGA.

 

All of them shot well from the P250 (didn't bring the 1911), I was better prepared to test accuracy (brought my bench rest bag for the pistols) and found that all of them shot reasonably consistent with the 5.1 and 5.2 gr versions were slightly more accurate than the 5.0 (and closer to Point of Aim). The 5.2 showed the least powder residue and fouling in the barrel. 

 

I think I am going go with the 5.2 going forward.  

 

I also had a good day with the M1, my son and I had a ball shooting the M1 at 100yards with reloaded Hornady A-Max 155gr. I think I have found the sweet spot on the load for a 100 yards. Bench rest hitting 3 out of 4 in the black is a good day for my old eyes on iron sights!  The Reloads are a great step up from the HXP surplus I started with.