$15k O/Us vs $230 870s

[302w 83]

Is a high-end O/U any better than a cheap mass produced shotgun?

 

I've known old Fudds who spent big, big money on Kreighoffs and the like. Some of them I respected and some of them were just rich and liked to brag. Without trying to sound like a fool I really don't see how an expensive O/U is superior to a common mans shotgun. I understand some are custom fit, and the obvious factor that there are two different chokes in an O/U versus one in a pump or semi. 

 

I can appreciate fine machinery, but this isn't a 1911 vs. Glock debate. I don't see how any shotgun can be better than another, so long as the action works and you have the proper choke/barrel. I suppose a custom fit shotgun is better, but if I am a better shot than you the custom fitting means nothing. 

[DeerSlayer 241]

I suggest you come to the next shotgun shootout, and judge for yourself. There is definitely a difference.

 

Its like saying a Ford focus and a corvette are both cars, and will both take you from point A to point B. This would be a true statement, except the ride is going to feel way different. The O/U is really built with a specific purpose in mind, an 870 or 500 pump is built for every purpose but none in specific. Both have their place.

 

Also for about $3500 - $5k you can buy a really beautiful looking and shooting O/U, that will last your lifetime. I wouldn't spend more than that personally. But there are people that drop $100K on custom built O/U shotguns. That's just being eccentric IMO.

[gfl216 226]

A few years back I was shooting trap with my $300 Stoeger Condor next to a guy shooting a $12,000 Perazzi. He was busting my balls about my gun and telling everyone how much he paid and how great his gun was. He was right the gun was beautiful but, when they announced the scores at the end of the round......................He didn't want to talk to me anymore.

[T Bill 649]

Owning a Corvette does not make you a better driver.  However, it makes a great driver better, allowing the best features of the driver to shine. 

 

A shovel gets the job done.  But, a backhoe does it faster and better.

 

MD 20 20 gets the job done. But, Makers Mark .................

[gfl216 226]

I agree, it was just nice scoring a win for little guy on a budget.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Owning a Corvette does not make you a better driver. However, it makes a great driver better, allowing the best features of the driver to shine.

 

A shovel gets the job done. But, a backhoe does it faster and better.

 

MD 20 20 gets the job done. But, Makers Mark .................

I fully agree with you. Either you got it or you don't.

 

I own three over unders. One was around $750 and I take it out to shoot, one I paid $1200 for and I hunt with, and one that retails for about $3600 I paid $2500 for lightly used, that I'm afraid to take out of the safe. I shoot exactly the same no matter witch one I have in hand. So what you spend means nothing IMO. You can shoot or you can't.

[Barms 98]

Does a $125k Ferrari get you to the office faster than a Camry? No it does not but maybe the guy really enjoys taking the turns on rails.

 

If you were asking the question does a $5,000 O/U perform better than $500 shotgun you'd have to ask yourself do you care about recoil shooting probably 200 rounds in a day? If you're shooting pairs maybe double that. Let's say you did that each weekend. Now you're easily 600 rounds in a month. Two three months later you're at 1,500 rounds down the pipe. How is that Moss 500 holding up after 1,500 rounds? The expensive O/Us are designed for the marathon, not just the score.

 

So if all that matters to you is the destination then get the Camry, some guys like to enjoy the drive.

 

(Would I ever spend $5k on a shotgun? Never, But I would never judge someone for theirs)

[Silphidae 33]

 

MD 20 20 gets the job done. But, Makers Mark .................

Now that's a real world example that makes it VERY clear to me!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

To the OP and all whom it concerns:

 

Son, it's NOT the machine, it's the MACHINIST!  LOL!

 

Yes, most expensive guns have advanced features that mean the gun "fits" its' owner better than an off-the-shelf low-end model.  It all goes to experience.  Can anybody else here shoot low-brass 12 ga. strong-hand ONLY and hit flying clays 50% of the time WITHOUT a practice or warm-up?  I do it with a 30 yr. old pump my wife bought me with  S and H Greenstamps..........  Used the same shotgun to tie the long-standing Club League Record a few weeks back.  What can I say--"the stars aligned", lol!  PLENTY of $5K+ guns got beat that day!

 

Just sayin'........

[RecessedFilter 222]

An O/U definitely is made better and has many more features that make it easier/more comfortable to shoot over a simple pump shotgun. Once you spend a few grand on an O/U, you get into adjustable combs and all that good stuff which you can customize the gun to yourself.

 

That doesn't mean outshooting guys that have a $15k Perazzi with your $210 Maverick 88 pump never, ever gets old though.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

Back in the day (when nearly all guns were still made of just wood and steel) I never had any trouble taking waterfowl with my trusty rugged $260.00 Remington 870 Express.  But shooting skeet was a lot more enjoyable with my friends $3,000.00 Browning O/U.  I don't know if I'd take that browning out on a hunt though, it was too pretty.  Just like anything else, at some point you are paying for prestige instead of utility.

[bry@n 195]

I own one shotgun and I love it. It's a browning 725. I bought it for it's features and it's fit.

 

I never worry about what anybody shoots. Clays is a game against ones self.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

My father inlaw has a skg and it's very nice. But I shoot better with my versa max

[Parker 213]

BTW - You excluded SxS's, which belong in the same category as an O&U. The SxS is the original double shotgun. While not the darling of the target crowd today, they do have their merits and their place in the shotgun world.

 

The analogies given are spot-on. If all you want the shotgun to do is go "bang," a single shot H&R is as good as any Boss or Perazzi. So, is a high-end O&U better? Maybe, there are some who think so, without having snobbish opinions about them. Some think that superior materials, hand-fitting, quality craftsmanship and attention to detail make for a better built gun, and many are willing to pay that difference.

 

There is a difference in the "between the hands" feel of a finely-crafted double compared to a clunky pump or semi-auto. Excluding the Belgium Browning A-5's and Franchi's, most other semi-auto's were clunky, weighty and nose-heavy until Benelli bought the rights to the Bruno Civolani patent. The modern Benelli is trimmer, lighter, has fewer parts and is cheaper to manufacture than the older designs mentioned and is a semi-auto shotgun that has taken the world by storm. Pump shotguns have utility and simplicity written all over them, although some early models were more complex than others.

 

The beauty of an O&U and SxS is that by the mere design of the gun's action; the width, height and length of either double's action is substantially smaller than a pump's or semi-auto's action; making for a trimmer, lighter and better-handling shotgun. When comparing the SxS with an O&U, the SxS is substantially trimmer due to its design. There was a time when folks argued over the merits of which was the better SxS when comparing Lefever's, Parker's, L.C. Smith's, Baker's, Ithaca's, Winchester's and the A.H. Fox; because some had snob appeal and some did not. As we've come to understand today, all were superior in their design and craftmanship compared to some of the offerings today. Sadly, American double makers are slim to none these days.  

 

Shotguns are meant to be shouldered, swung, and brought to bear quickly on winged game or targets where both are moving in rapid fashion. This emphasis on quickness and better handling is desirable in a sporting gun. Shotguns were game guns first, the target game came later. The O&U with its single-sighting plane is what dominates in the winner's circle today. Everybody wants to emulate a winner, hence the O&U's popularity. .  

 

What makes for a better grouse gun when walking the mountainous hillsides of rough terrain all day in the early Fall when leaves are thick and shots must come quickly on fleeing game; a 12 ga. 11-87 or a 20 ga. Browning Superlight O&U? Without being snobbish, I'll tell you that I've carried both, and with a 2 1/2 lb. difference between them, I'll let you guess which one is the quicker-to-the-shoulder of the two and what I prefer. I like to shoot skeet with a particular 870 pump, and have no problems holding my own against others shooting Krieghoff's and Perazzi's, all the while knowledgeable that those I'm shooting against have what I consider better guns.   

[Shawnmoore81 623]

A lot of the money in those guns is fancy wood, inlays and engraving

[DeerSlayer 241]

A lot of the money in those guns is fancy wood, inlays and engraving

Yeah once you start getting into graded wood the pricing starts getting silly.

[gunguy1960 2]

Go to trapshooting hall of fame website, read about arnold riegger and his shotgun, a winchester model 37.

[Parker 213]

Pumps have had their place in shotgunning history, as well as single-shots.

 

I've posted this link once before about pump guns: 

http://www.joeletchenguns.com/pump.htm

 

(It's the Indian, not the arrow.)

[DaddyNick 408]

I've beat my father and his friend a few times with my beretta 390. When I have the time and the $$ i'll get a nice gun with beautiful wood. Until then my guns do double duty at skeet/clays and in the swamps/fields. I cant be concerned with getting them gouged or scratched.

 

I do want to get myself a nice SxS in 20ga. double triggers, straight English stock, choked IC/IM. When my knees start slowin me down i'll get a slow workin dog. lol

 

Nick

[Scrap 4]

See this is one of those things, I just don't get ... I mean I get but I have no absolutely none interest in.

 

 

I have a nice gun collection, a couple-a-few things and try my best.  I have a better one than some people and a non-factor to other serious collectors.  Hey, gotta be happy with yourself etc.

 

I am much more into , dare I say, "Tactical" and "Combat" style firearms.  I do appreciate class and certainly history so I love many guns that don't fit into combat firearm category, but for example, I'd rather have an M1 Garand as a historical, collectible war-piece firearm than a dedicated gaming-gun because I don't really shoot any games nor do I care to collect them.

 

 

 

*NOW* - I know that some of the over/under shotguns for gaming are fine fine firearms and a few thousand is just scratching the surface.  HOWEVER, they don't do anything for me.  And if I were to add to my collection, this would not cross my mind.  * Now* if I was extremely, independently wealthy and could buy anything I wanted at most any time, I would surely add a few O/Us to the collection in the interest of having some of everything and probably to kill time with my friends doing rich-people things like shooting expensive O/U shotguns at clay targets.

 

 

 

Otherwise, I am much happier with my 870 Tactical than a fancy O/U .

[Parker 213]

 

 

I do want to get myself a nice SxS in 20ga. double triggers, straight English stock, choked IC/IM. When my knees start slowin me down i'll get a slow workin dog. lol

 

Nick

 

Nice choice.

 

I wouldn't mind finding the right Beretta 425, 426 or Silver Hawk. Or even a CD-labeled Beretta. They're around, but are few and far between.

[MidwestPX 172]

High dollar shotguns are also great vehicles for tax-free inheritances.

[Parker 213]

High dollar shotguns are also great vehicles for tax-free inheritances.

 

Agreed.

 

This could be an example of a retirement portfolio:

[mipafox 438]

Put that $14,770 in a Roth 401K and when you retire you will have $375,000 tax free.

 

Then save up to spend as much money as you want on your second trap gun.

[302w 83]

I would never spend more than $1200 on a firearm unless I had big money and wanted a machine gun FWIW. For a $15k shotgun, I can buy a lot of stuff. 

 

I don't mean to step on any toes, but...

 

I still don't see how an expensive O/U is better than a cheap pump. Shotguns have smoothbore barrels and shoot fine packed shot, so accuracy is a moot point. ROF is not a consideration for sporting clays. Reliability seems to be a moot point as well, as an 870 could probably feed chunks of wood dowels and I've known people to only use high brass in O/Us (my neighbor, a K-18 shooter who was frugal otherwise, claimed he couldn't use bulk shells because he needed brass). I can understand that a lighter gun can be brought to bear quicker than others, but I don't think it will hold someone back. A custom-fit shotgun seems nice, but again I don't see how an off-the-shelf gun can hold someone back.

 

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just trying to understand.

 

From my observation it seems like a Norinco or RIA 1911 vs Colt debate. Assuming you had a perfectly good and flawless RIA (which many are not perfect out of the box), many people would rather have a Colt because they're simply "nicer" among other things. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

you dont buy a Ferrari because it's fast, for a fraction of the price you can get something just as fast. 15k shotguns are hand made/fitted, and have art engraved and probably gold inlays... It's a status piece. You dont understand the need for something because there isnt one... it's more of a want, and only those who want one will understand it.

 

I too see the money better spent/invested else where.. but i wouldn't try to justify someone else's purchase. People spend absurd money on worthless shit, and these at least hold value.

[Vlad G 345]

I would never spend more than $1200 on a firearm unless I had big money and wanted a machine gun FWIW. For a $15k shotgun, I can buy a lot of stuff. 

 

....

 

I still don't see how an expensive O/U is better than a cheap pump. Shotguns have smoothbore barrels and shoot fine packed shot, so accuracy is a moot point. ROF is not a consideration for sporting clays. 

 

....

 

many people would rather have a Colt because they're simply "nicer" among other things. 

 

First of all .. a $1200 firearm is kinda not much. Sorry, but if you want a decent AR you'll end up spending at least that for example. Sure cheaper guns will work, but they will not do the same things. There is a difference between a $600 1911 and the right $1200 1911. Some of it is because it is "nicer" and you can turn your nose on that, I don't particular like spending money on expensive things for the engraving, but think of it this way .. if one is nicer, is the other one nastier? between nasty and nice, which do you really want.

 

All that however doesn't matter, because there is a bigger point. Yes nicer shotguns are easier to shoot well. Sure, you can hit a clay with a 870, or whatever, but can you do that 100 times over, at the olympics? When the chips are down you want the best tools for the job, even if cheaper ones might work, because you want every advantage. 

 

Now me, I don't shoot clays. I mean that in both the "not my game" sense, but also in the sense that I really just CAN'T shoot clays, for whatever reason I have zero ability at those games. I've tried but me hitting clays is completely accidental and frankly if a clay broke you should first check for random meteors falling and hitting my clays before you look at me, even if I had a gun in my hand.  I have a better chance breaking them with a handgun then a shotgun. 

 

That said, a couple of years I RO'ing at the FNH 3gun match and to enter all the raffles I was going around during lunch break playing with all the FN gear, including their clay gun, the SC-1. They had exactly a handful in the country, and they ended up raffling off two of them, this was some number of months before they became actually available.  So they handed me a box of shells and had me shoot a round of whatever game with clays that was (which I can't tell apart). 

 

Now In all my shooting years I maybe hit 5 clays, and again maybe I didn't its possible some of those were during a  pleiades meteor shower, but wouldn't you know it, with that SC-1 I hit about half my shots that day. It was the first (and last) time in my life when I thought to myself "Self, maybe you should pick up clay shooting, and buy one of these guns". I came to my senses, but you know what .. The right gun makes a difference.

 

Sure, lots of people will beat my ass into the ground on the clays field with a single shot H&R no matter how much money I spend on a O/U, but if I wanted to shoot clays, and I was serious about it, why the hell would I not pick the best gun I can afford that does the most for me?

 

You could shoot 3gun with an SKS, a SxS and a 5 shot snubbie, but you would probably not perform your best.

[Parker 213]

Here's a link to Sporting Shot's online magazine for those who like fine shotguns, classic doubles, upland hunting, the shooting sports, stories, etc.

http://bluetoad.com/publication/?i=207283

 

 

 

 

[302w 83]

First of all .. a $1200 firearm is kinda not much. Sorry, but if you want a decent AR you'll end up spending at least that for example. Sure cheaper guns will work, but they will not do the same things. There is a difference between a $600 1911 and the right $1200 1911. Some of it is because it is "nicer" and you can turn your nose on that, I don't particular like spending money on expensive things for the engraving, but think of it this way .. if one is nicer, is the other one nastier? between nasty and nice, which do you really want.

 

 

I used $1200 as a price point because that is about what I would like to spend on a 1911 and a Garand if I buy one shortly. I'm about $650ish into my AR with quality parts. Everything is Colt except for my CMMG LPK, LRB lower, and Martin Marietta upper.

 

I'm just saying it can be done. To each his own.

[Vlad G 345]

Look, it isn't a pissing contest, but everything is Colt minus the actual gun bits and the trigger? So of all the parts that matter the barrel and bolt are colt? Not that Colt means anything to me anyway.

 

The point isn't that your gun doesn't work, the point is what it can do, I'm sure your $650 rifle works fine but if you ever handle or shoot a $1500-$2000 competition rifle you will understand why someone is willing to pay that kind of money for it. It sorta the same reason people pay for Aimpoints when Vortex works, and so on.

 

Most of time you do get something extra for your money, unless you are just throwing it at the wind and getting ripped off. There is a reason expensive O/U cost more. I also completely understand why that doesn't do anything for you, they don't really do anything for me either and I don't spend my money on them, but don't make the mistake of assuming there isn't a difference.

 

Yes the indian matters, but the indian with the good arrow is going to shoot straighter then the same indian with a bent stick, specially when you are talking about guns you fly to Italy to have custom fit to you when you buy them, the same way that there is a difference between a suit you buy of the peg, and a suit someone custom fit to your body.

 

The world really is better off if we don't all drive Honda Civics and bitch that no one needs SUV's or Porches.