Even when it's legal

[Newtonian 453]

Interesting story about law-abiding gun owners vs. Connecticut's liberal open carry laws.

 

Same story: guy walks into establishment open-carrying, customers freak, call the cops. Charges are always dropped, but one such "offender" was forced to pay $500 for the state to follow its own laws.

[Parker 213]

This statement from the comments section sums up where we are today; "Culture certainly appears to trump law in the politically correct northeast."

[Candyman87 10]

Sadly there's a difference between legal and logical in a lot of cases. 

 

Frankly, when people started getting in my face, I'd probably up and leave.

 

At that point, I'm pretty sure I'm no longer enjoying myself.

 

That's why I'll always take CC over OC.

[kirk2022 43]

Unfortunately this is the way of the world we live in, in our part of the country.

Unless you are in A true 2A friendly state.  Mid Western states mostly. If you truly look at the Idea of OC with A open mind. You will come to the conclussion that it is not smart. Look at the dumbness we have been seeing in the past couple months, Even in Gun Friendly states with OC protests.

Lets look at Pa. Yes we lost our right to carry there as Non Residents with the carry permits that A lot of us have.

So all you hear is lets go across the bridge and open carry as A way of protesting the Goofy headed AG over there.  Is that going to work?   No it will be more bad press for antis to feed on. Even worse most likly problems for the person or persons that think its A good idea to do something like that.

Am I against OC? NO! But I sure wont be OC'ing in eastern PA. Now in 2 weeks when we head up to central PA for vacation, will I OC? yes!  Why there and not right across the bridges?  Because it is like 2 different States in that part of PA.  It is the norm moreso than not. 

At least there is A politician that is making an attempt to shut down Kane with his bill for new PA reciprocity. Hopefully that will gain some traction.

 

I really guess what I am saying is sometimes Gun owners are our worse own enemies. With some of things that are done by groups.

 

Sorry for the rant. And sorry to anyone that takes offense to this post.

 

Now I will sit back and be quiet.

[Newtonian 453]

I agree with all of you so far. 

 

My point was that smart or stupid, the justice system often makes things up as they go along. This case just happened to be about guns. 

[T Bill 649]

NE states judicial climate are notorious for legislating from the bench. NJ is a prime example.  Democratic legislature appointing their comrades to the bench and they help keep the status quo covering their legislative buddies butts.  We need to change that and make judgeships an elective position. Let the people speak for themselves, stop telling us what they think is right.

[springfieldxds 0]

doesnt this contradict a similar case out of the 4th circuit that says police cant arrest you for merely open carrying if that state allows it 

 

and this is it 

 

FOURTH CIRCUIT FINDS THAT CARRYING A FIREARM IN AN OPEN-CARRY STATE DOES NOT CREATE REASONABLE SUSPICION AND PROVIDES THOROUGH ANALYSIS OF THE "FREE TO LEAVE" STANDARD OF SEIZURE

 

http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case-law-updates/784-fourth-circuit-finds-that-carrying-a-firearm-in-an-open-carry-state-does-not-create-reasonable-suspicion-and-provides-thorough-analysis-of-the-free-to-leave-standard-of-seizure

[springfieldxds 0]

maybe a possible scotus decision in the future with this circuit split 

[mipafox 438]

 

Unfortunately this is the way of the world we live in, in our part of the country.

Unless you are in A true 2A friendly state.  Mid Western states mostly. If you truly look at the Idea of OC with A open mind. You will come to the conclussion that it is not smart. Look at the dumbness we have been seeing in the past couple months, Even in Gun Friendly states with OC protests.

Lets look at Pa. Yes we lost our right to carry there as Non Residents with the carry permits that A lot of us have.

So all you hear is lets go across the bridge and open carry as A way of protesting the Goofy headed AG over there.  Is that going to work?   No it will be more bad press for antis to feed on. Even worse most likly problems for the person or persons that think its A good idea to do something like that.

Am I against OC? NO! But I sure wont be OC'ing in eastern PA.

 

 

I'e been open carrying in East PA every day for 6 years and never had a problem. I've had dozens of cops both state and local see my gun, from dozens of municipalities and PSP, sometimes standing in line behind me for coffee. Nobody ever has a problem outside of Philly since they started training cops in their annual training that they can't stop you or ask for ID (outside of Philly), starting in 2009. Actually, the nonsense ended years before that, but that was the final nail in the coffin.

 

Where did you come up with this?

 

I am friends with a dozen people that OC in my county, and I know there are way more than that. Talk to people that work in grocery stores and shops and they will tell you they see them all the time.

 

You say you don't disagree with OC, I don't really care about that. I care more about your misrepresentation that open carry in East PA will cause problems or get you in trouble, when that has not been the case for many people I know.

 

I will say this. If you think people from NJ can OC in PA to show the PA AG who is boss, that won't work. Because nobody gives a shit if you OC in PA, most people won't notice, and it certainly won't garner any attention. Not a great idea for a protest. It's a better idea to be able to carry if you want to.

[kirk2022 43]

  

 

I'e been open carrying in East PA every day for 6 years and never had a problem. I've had dozens of cops both state and local see my gun, from dozens of municipalities and PSP, sometimes standing in line behind me for coffee. Nobody ever has a problem outside of Philly since they started training cops in their annual training that they can't stop you or ask for ID (outside of Philly), starting in 2009. Actually, the nonsense ended years before that, but that was the final nail in the coffin.

 

Where did you come up with this?

 

I am friends with a dozen people that OC in my county, and I know there are way more than that. Talk to people that work in grocery stores and shops and they will tell you they see them all the time.

 

You say you don't disagree with OC, I don't really care about that. I care more about your misrepresentation that open carry in East PA will cause problems or get you in trouble, when that has not been the case for many people I know.

 

I will say this. If you think people from NJ can OC in PA to show the PA AG who is boss, that won't work. Because nobody gives a shit if you OC in PA, most people won't notice, and it certainly won't garner any attention. Not a great idea for a protest. It's a better idea to be able to carry if you want to.

[kirk2022 43]

You took what I said wrong as far as the Protest. Maybe I worded it wrong.  I was pointing out just waht you said.

 

 

  

I'e been open carrying in East PA every day for 6 years and never had a problem. I've had dozens of cops both state and local see my gun, from dozens of municipalities and PSP, sometimes standing in line behind me for coffee. Nobody ever has a problem outside of Philly since they started training cops in their annual training that they can't stop you or ask for ID (outside of Philly), starting in 2009. Actually, the nonsense ended years before that, but that was the final nail in the coffin.

Where did you come up with this?

I am friends with a dozen people that OC in my county, and I know there are way more than that. Talk to people that work in grocery stores and shops and they will tell you they see them all the time.

You say you don't disagree with OC, I don't really care about that. I care more about your misrepresentation that open carry in East PA will cause problems or get you in trouble, when that has not been the case for many people I know.

 

I have experienced the difference myself,   No not in Philly because I just dont go there.

Never have I felt there would be issues up where we vacation at .  (Bloomsburg, Cattawissa Area)

I will say this. If you think people from NJ can OC in PA to show the PA AG who is boss, that won't work. Because nobody gives a shit if you OC in PA, most people won't notice, and it certainly won't garner any attention. Not a great idea for a protest. It's a better idea to be able to carry if you want to.

 

As far as the protest part, I am saying just what you state. I dont agree with the lets just go to PA and OC to show A point Myself. That is what I was saying about that part.    Either I didnt state my thought right or you took it wrong.

 

As for the rest of your thoughts I dont know. I am glad you are able to carry anyway you like on any given day where you live.

 

And I for one have sat down and took the time to E-Mail the PA reps that are listed in the post on the PAFOA site.

Not in A protesting way, But as A Husband and Grandfather raising A 6 year Grandson , That likes to spend time and money visiting Pa. for travel and vacations.

 

 

 

[mipafox 438]

Hi Kirk,

 

I don't see any response, am I missing something?

[kirk2022 43]

I Finally got it posted.

I realize you live in PA.

I tend to pay attention to your posts.

Most times I agree sometimes I dont.

In this case we Both have difeerent views.

 

FYI I always CC'ed when in Pa untill Utah was shut off.

Now yes I use caution when deciding to OC in PA.

 

No Offense meant.

[mipafox 438]

I don't carry every day where I live. I carry every day all over the Eastern half of PA. Only place I haven't been much is up north.

 

I wasn't trying to argue. This is not a matter of my personal experience in a bubble, this is a matter of fact. I am good friends with a dozen people that OC daily and there are hundreds if not thousands more. Nothing bad happens. I don't know what you experienced as "the difference" but I would say there is no difference. If you are uncomfortable then by all means don't do it. It doesn't make any difference to me. I was just trying to express to you the reality on the ground from my experience and the experience of many others that I think you have come to a characterization of Eastern PA that is not skewed. And it's a whole lot of experience. I was active in this since 2006 when sometimes people did get stopped and asked for ID. Back when this was a mission of sorts on paopencarry.org and pafoa.org. I saw it come to an end with thousands of other people. Now I have six years experience, and between me and my friends we have probably 100 years experience, plus I go to firearms BBQs and meets with a much larger community and nobody has ever said anything to contradtict our experience.

 

I think that should be valuable information just to leave here as input. Not trying to convince you of anything. Your mileage may vary.

[Newtonian 453]

I don't carry every day where I live. I carry every day all over the Eastern half of PA. Only place I haven't been much is up north.

 

I wasn't trying to argue. This is not a matter of my personal experience in a bubble, this is a matter of fact. I am good friends with a dozen people that OC daily and there are hundreds if not thousands more. Nothing bad happens. I don't know what you experienced as "the difference" but I would say there is no difference. If you are uncomfortable then by all means don't do it. It doesn't make any difference to me. I was just trying to express to you the reality on the ground from my experience and the experience of many others that I think you have come to a characterization of Eastern PA that is not skewed. And it's a whole lot of experience. I was active in this since 2006 when sometimes people did get stopped and asked for ID. Back when this was a mission of sorts on paopencarry.org and pafoa.org. I saw it come to an end with thousands of other people. Now I have six years experience, and between me and my friends we have probably 100 years experience, plus I go to firearms BBQs and meets with a much larger community and nobody has ever said anything to contradtict our experience.

 

I think that should be valuable information just to leave here as input. Not trying to convince you of anything. Your mileage may vary.

Phosgene, I assume you also have a Penn. concealed carry license. Why do you open carry? What do you think of the arguments Jerry Miculek made against open carry (in the video I posted, I believe here, about 3 weeks ago)?

 

My feeling is on your property, in the woods, hunting, in an emergency. At McDonald's? I don't see the advantage over CC. Not that I'm in the least bit against it legally, morally. If it's legal and you are uncomfortable with someone else doing it, you are free to leave the same way you might leave if you were prejudiced against Romanians and a bunch of them walked into a business.

 

I just don't see the tactical benefit of advertising that you're armed. Please make an argument and convince me.

[PeteF 1,044]

Phosgene, I assume you also have a Penn. concealed carry license. Why do you open carry? What do you think of the arguments Jerry Miculek made against open carry (in the video I posted, I believe here, about 3 weeks ago)?

 

My feeling is on your property, in the woods, hunting, in an emergency. At McDonald's? I don't see the advantage over CC. Not that I'm in the least bit against it legally, morally. If it's legal and you are uncomfortable with someone else doing it, you are free to leave the same way you might leave if you were prejudiced against Romanians and a bunch of them walked into a business.

 

I just don't see the tactical benefit of advertising that you're armed. Please make an argument and convince me.

Why do police open carry? Why does the military open carry?

There must be some reason. Oh because it is more comfortable, and quicker to get the weapon into action maybe?

 

As to "advertising", what a crock of shit. Do you go after the person that might fight back and kill you or do you go for an easy target.

 

If OC makes a person a target then why don't police CC?

This includes both uniformed and others.

[jackandjill 683]

The bickering around OC and CC is similar to the ones between folks are satisfied with their traditional firearms and argue against likes of AR15s.

At the end of the day, the community loses at the hands of Anti 2A crowds.

 

Just like we need no "justifiable need" to Concealed Carry, there is no need for anyone to explain why they want to Open Carry. Its a damn right that will go away if not exercised frequently. As simple as that. All those who argue against OC, look at the mirror and ask yourself why you need a standard capacity magazine or "assault weapons" such as AR15s.

[PeteF 1,044]

The bickering around OC and CC is similar to the ones between folks are satisfied with their traditional firearms and argue against likes of AR15s.

At the end of the day, the community loses at the hands of Anti 2A crowds.

 

Just like we need no "justifiable need" to Concealed Carry, there is no need for anyone to explain why they want to Open Carry. Its a damn right that will go away if not exercised frequently. As simple as that. All those who argue against OC, look at the mirror and ask yourself why you need a standard capacity magazine or "assault weapons" such as AR15s.

Exactly.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The bickering around OC and CC is similar to the ones between folks are satisfied with their traditional firearms and argue against likes of AR15s.

At the end of the day, the community loses at the hands of Anti 2A crowds.

 

Just like we need no "justifiable need" to Concealed Carry, there is no need for anyone to explain why they want to Open Carry. Its a damn right that will go away if not exercised frequently. As simple as that. All those who argue against OC, look at the mirror and ask yourself why you need a standard capacity magazine or "assault weapons" such as AR15s.

 

 

depends on where I am.. when I am in the middle of nowhere where the threat level is relatively low.. I carry open or concealed.. however I feel at the moment.. 

when I am in a shithole area.. where people occasionally shoot at each other for no reason.. I generally carry concealed to paint a smaller target on my back.. 

 

paranoia? maybe? but I do think there is a certain amount of discussion when it comes to the choice of carrying open or concealed.. AND I also think that there are a fair number of people carrying openly that lack the skills to retain the weapon if an attacker OR multiple attackers take them by surprise..

 

will open carrying a gun magically cause you to be attacked by multiple people that will strip you of your weapon and kill you? unlikely... but you are definitely giving up a little security by putting all your cards on the table.. "I have a gun.. this is where it is.." again.. statistically unlikely.. it has happened at least a handful of times that I am aware of.. 

 

and since mipafox does not like claims made without any supporting information.. here is the first link that came up with just a few seconds of searching.. (again.. I am sure it is incredibly infrequent.. totally unlikely... but it does illustrate the advantage you are getting when carrying concealed..) 

 

 

[jackandjill 683]

^^^^ And the choice is (and should be) yours, fair and square.

[GlastonburyNative 0]

Interesting story about law-abiding gun owners vs. Connecticut's liberal open carry laws.

 

Same story: guy walks into establishment open-carrying, customers freak, call the cops. Charges are always dropped, but one such "offender" was forced to pay $500 for the state to follow its own laws.

 

I remember this incident when I was still living in Connecticut.  I also remember something similar in my hometown where a man who was OC'ing was arrested while on lunch break because one of the employees called the police:

 

http://articles.courant.com/2010-04-18/news/hc-open-carry-guns-0418.artapr18_1_gun-owners-gun-laws-permits

[PeteF 1,044]

 

depends on where I am.. when I am in the middle of nowhere where the threat level is relatively low.. I carry open or concealed.. however I feel at the moment.. 

when I am in a shithole area.. where people occasionally shoot at each other for no reason.. I generally carry concealed to paint a smaller target on my back.. 

 

.......

 

 

Not bust on you Vlad.

But:

NBC? no chance of biased reporting.  I'm sure that big guy they interviewed is a target x2.   Wouldn't you take out the biggest guy first?  Wouldn't you take out the gun carrier first?

Or would you maybe move on to someone else that might not fight back?

 

The guy who got robbed "had trouble with his holster".  More like had his nose in a cellphone.  OC or CC makes no difference if you walk around indifferent to your surroundings.

[mipafox 438]

and since mipafox does not like claims made without any supporting information..

Actually, this is one of the rare times I am going to request supporting information for THAT claim

 

I don't know where you got that idea about me. I generally support a free discussion of ideas and I rarely backup anything I say with a reference just to make somebody happy. The only time I bring up references is when we need to drill down into a legality (so we are looking at the same page) or to provide a source of information that is larger in scope than the details of a discussion.

 

I'm not some, "You gotta link?" guy. Most information of value is not on the internet. Most lazy people are.

 

Another thing I have never done is argue that either OC or CC is a better mode of carry.

 

I seem to have got up with fleas but I don't remember laying with dogs.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Not bust on you Vlad.

But:

NBC? no chance of biased reporting.  I'm sure that big guy they interviewed is a target x2.   Wouldn't you take out the biggest guy first?  Wouldn't you take out the gun carrier first?

Or would you maybe move on to someone else that might not fight back?

 

The guy who got robbed "had trouble with his holster".  More like had his nose in a cellphone.  OC or CC makes no difference if you walk around indifferent to your surroundings.

 

The reason he had his gun stolen.. was because he was an idiot... but if his gun was not in plain sight.. he may not have been a target to begin with..

 

and who would I take out first? If I were a criminal.. robbing a liquor store for example.. I would shoot the guy with the gun on his hip first.. because he is an obvious immediate threat to my actions... 

I am all for open carry.. do what you want.. but criminals are pretty crazy anymore.. and I don't necessarily think that the presence of open carry deters crime.. just like the threat of jail time doesnt stop drug users.. and the threat of the death penalty doesn't stop murder.. if someone tweaked out on drugs decides to do some bad shit.. and there you in front of them in line.. holding your box of wine.. there is a fair chance that you are getting a bullet to the back of the head first.. 

 

you rob a bank.. who do you kill first.. the armed security guard.. or the unarmed janitor.. 

 

Actually, this is one of the rare times I am going to request supporting information for THAT claim

 

I don't know where you got that idea about me. I generally support a free discussion of ideas and I rarely backup anything I say with a reference just to make somebody happy. The only time I bring up references is when we need to drill down into a legality (so we are looking at the same page) or to provide a source of information that is larger in scope than the details of a discussion.

 

I'm not some, "You gotta link?" guy. Most information of value is not on the internet. Most lazy people are.

 

Another thing I have never done is argue that either OC or CC is a better mode of carry.

 

I seem to have got up with fleas but I don't remember laying with dogs.

 

LOL it just goes back to my rant about Eastern PA.. you know western NJ.. with all those gun free signs that I can't recall where they were..  I actually noticed some in the outlets by Hershey the other day.. was kind of surprised by them.. one was a Jewelry store I think.... which is odd because I was not even checked for a gun going into Hershey Park.. and to be honest.. I don't even recall any signs.. 

 

one thing to add.. in all fairness.. The Philly concert scene is surprisingly neutral when it comes to guns.. going as far as to letting me lock the gun up at the venue.. and retrieve it after the show.. 

[mipafox 438]

 

The reason he had his gun stolen.. was because he was an idiot... but if his gun was not in plain sight.. he may not have been a target to begin with..

 

and who would I take out first? If I were a criminal.. robbing a liquor store for example.. I would shoot the guy with the gun on his hip first.. because he is an obvious immediate threat to my actions... 

I am all for open carry.. do what you want.. but criminals are pretty crazy anymore.. and I don't necessarily think that the presence of open carry deters crime.. just like the threat of jail time doesnt stop drug users.. and the threat of the death penalty doesn't stop murder.. if someone tweaked out on drugs decides to do some bad shit.. and there you in front of them in line.. holding your box of wine.. there is a fair chance that you are getting a bullet to the back of the head first.. 

 

you rob a bank.. who do you kill first.. the armed security guard.. or the unarmed janitor.. 

 

 

LOL it just goes back to my rant about Eastern PA.. you know western NJ.. with all those gun free signs that I can't recall where they were..  I actually noticed some in the outlets by Hershey the other day.. was kind of surprised by them.. one was a Jewelry store I think.... which is odd because I was not even checked for a gun going into Hershey Park.. and to be honest.. I don't even recall any signs.. 

 

one thing to add.. in all fairness.. The Philly concert scene is surprisingly neutral when it comes to guns.. going as far as to letting me lock the gun up at the venue.. and retrieve it after the show.. 

 

 

Au contraire,

 

"claims made without any supporting information" suggests I want documentation.

 

If you tell me East PA sucks I want to know if you have had any relevant experiences, not a demand for documentation proving it.

[Newtonian 453]

Why do police open carry? Why does the military open carry?

There must be some reason. Oh because it is more comfortable, and quicker to get the weapon into action maybe?

 

As to "advertising", what a crock of shit. Do you go after the person that might fight back and kill you or do you go for an easy target.

 

If OC makes a person a target then why don't police CC?

This includes both uniformed and others.

Police are trained in open carry, which is necessary to avoid a scumbag taking the gun from you. They are also in uniform most of the time, which kind of advertises that they have a gun anyway, so it might as well be more accessible.

 

Those are the arguments of many gun gurus, including Jerry Miculek.

 

Military in a war zone? Are you kidding?

 

Repeat: I have no problem with open carry from a legal or moral perspective. If it's legal where you are and you're comfortable, go for it. It does not freak me out in the least.

 

I'm talking tactics here. The bad guy with a gun or knife sees your weapon and goes for you first, or you're in a "knockout game" situation and have no chance. You've lost the opportunity to respond or not to, as the situation calls for.

 

Let me turn this around on you: Why do plainclothes and off-duty cops mostly conceal?

[PeteF 1,044]

I don't see the advantage over CC.

 

I was giving you two very compelling users of open carry.  Police and Military.  I guess they figured there had to be some reason to open carry.

 

 

Police are trained in open carry, which is necessary to avoid a scumbag taking the gun from you. They are also in uniform most of the time, which kind of advertises that they have a gun anyway, so it might as well be more accessible.

 

Those are the arguments of many gun gurus, including Jerry Miculek.

 

Military in a war zone? Are you kidding?

 

Repeat: I have no problem with open carry from a legal or moral perspective. If it's legal where you are and you're comfortable, go for it. It does not freak me out in the least.

 

I'm talking tactics here. The bad guy with a gun or knife sees your weapon and goes for you first, or you're in a "knockout game" situation and have no chance. You've lost the opportunity to respond or not to, as the situation calls for.

 

Let me turn this around on you: Why do plainclothes and off-duty cops mostly conceal?

 

I see, so no else besides police can learn how keep a scumbag from taking their weapon.  If everything was about training, why can't Mario Andretti drive 150 miles and hour down the parkway?  Traffic you say,  he used to drive with 4 feet of clearance on any side at any given moment. from guys doing 200, whats the problem.  Anything a cop can be taught so can anyone else.

 

As to why do undercover cops conceal, well sometimes it is to make themselves a victim.  Rape bait, drunk rollers etc.

 

If conceal was such a benefit why don't ALL leos carry concealed?  Well maybe because they are like the signs beware of dog, or house protected by alarm system.  Why even have a uniformed guard in a bank?  It's a warning go someplace else, or else.

 

Jerry M. is welcome to his opinion and I'm not saying he's wrong, but that's just what it is, his opinion.  Does he shoot his demonstrations and competitions with a concealed gun or and open carry one? I wonder why?

 

 

I'm talking tactics here. The bad guy with a gun or knife sees your weapon and goes for you first, or you're in a "knockout game" situation and have no chance. You've lost the opportunity to respond or not to, as the situation calls for.

 

So the knife wielding guy, see's a guy with a gun, he decides to try and attack him (knife to a gun fight ring any bells).  Open carrier being AWARE of his surroundings draws gun and shoots in an astound 1.7 seconds.  Bad guy shot.  Good result.

 

So the knife wielding guy, see's a guy without a gun, he decides easy target (think NJ).  Concealed carrier being AWARE of his surroundings tries to draw his gun and because of clearing concealing clothing takes 0.5 seconds longer and gets a knife in the gut.  Bad guy sees where hand was takes gun and shoots CCW holder.  Bad guy, now has gun and CCW dead.  Bad result.

 

It can be argued till everyone is blue in the face.  But OC and CC both have advantages and disadvantages.  Just like the caliber wars.  It actually has the same answer.  Do what you are best at. What maybe best for you isn't for someone else.

 

But the most important thing is not OC or CC it's BEING AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS.   Just like a .50 cal miss is worse than a .22 cal hit.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

I was giving you two very compelling users of open carry.  Police and Military.  I guess they figured there had to be some reason to open carry.

 

 

 

I see, so no else besides police can learn how keep a scumbag from taking their weapon.  If everything was about training, why can't Mario Andretti drive 150 miles and hour down the parkway?  Traffic you say,  he used to drive with 4 feet of clearance on any side at any given moment. from guys doing 200, whats the problem.  Anything a cop can be taught so can anyone else.

 

As to why do undercover cops conceal, well sometimes it is to make themselves a victim.  Rape bait, drunk rollers etc.

 

If conceal was such a benefit why don't ALL leos carry concealed?  Well maybe because they are like the signs beware of dog, or house protected by alarm system.  Why even have a uniformed guard in a bank?  It's a warning go someplace else, or else.

 

Jerry M. is welcome to his opinion and I'm not saying he's wrong, but that's just what it is, his opinion.  Does he shoot his demonstrations and competitions with a concealed gun or and open carry one? I wonder why?

 

 

 

So the knife wielding guy, see's a guy with a gun, he decides to try and attack him (knife to a gun fight ring any bells).  Open carrier being AWARE of his surroundings draws gun and shoots in an astound 1.7 seconds.  Bad guy shot.  Good result.

 

So the knife wielding guy, see's a guy without a gun, he decides easy target (think NJ).  Concealed carrier being AWARE of his surroundings tries to draw his gun and because of clearing concealing clothing takes 0.5 seconds longer and gets a knife in the gut.  Bad guy sees where hand was takes gun and shoots CCW holder.  Bad guy, now has gun and CCW dead.  Bad result.

 

It can be argued till everyone is blue in the face.  But OC and CC both have advantages and disadvantages.  Just like the caliber wars.  It actually has the same answer.  Do what you are best at. What maybe best for you isn't for someone else.

 

But the most important thing is not OC or CC it's BEING AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS.   Just like a .50 cal miss is worse than a .22 cal hit.

 

 

 

the assumption that ALL people open carrying take the time to learn proper weapon retention... and or even have the physical ability to retain a weapon in a struggle is a foolish assumption..the comparison to police is another thing I don't get.. the individuals are normally uniformed doing a job, carrying multiple items on a duty belt.. and there is no gained element of surprise..... also with tucked in shirts..carrying concealed with a tucked in shirt is grossly inconvenient.. that alone makes carrying concealed unreasonable.. also as a side note.. most cops I know only carry openly when on duty.. off duty carry is normally concealed... 

 

sure open carry nets a quicker draw... but it without question paints a bigger target on your back... you are indicating "I am the armed guy with a gun.. so if shits gonna go down.. take me out first".. I will agree that 1.. 2.. 5.. or even 1000 criminals in the history of time second guessed a criminal act because they saw someone with a gun.. but the notion that you are dealing with that kind of criminal is a large bet to put on something so uncertain... 

 

at the end of the day you can only be sure of a couple things.. and that is open carry WILL net a faster cleaner draw... open carry sacrifices  the opportunity of surprise.. and considering if something bad goes down.. you are going to instantly be right in the middle of it.. I will take every opportunity I can.. 

[PeteF 1,044]

Vlad,

You are making a lot of assumptions here. First all OC cops are capable of defending themselves from being disarmed.

 

Big error. Many maybe, but you will always meet some bigger stronger or more skilled.

Trained? Like the standard Academy firearms training and quals?

As to detering a crime you make the assumption its a planned crime. Most crime now is crime of opportunity.

For the opportunistic criminal an armed person is a big Move on sign

 

http://izismile.com/2010/08/06/such_fat_cops_25_pics.html

[Newtonian 453]

Except for those mega crime scenes swarming with cops, off-duty and undercover law enforcement almost always conceal. That policy evolved over the course of centuries, and is now accepted as the most effective way to counter-balance the criminal element. Otherwise they'd open carry.

 

When concealing the officer remains anonymous, the opportunity for losing his firearm is minimized, he is no more a target than anyone else, and can respond to a situation as he sees fit -- including getting away and/or calling for backup discreetly. Once the criminal sees you're armed your part of it, ready or not.

 

I'm sure that a 95th percentile bad -- the purse snatcher, the pot dealer, even the guy who mugs little old ladies -- sees the gun and has second thoughts. The truly evil ones, the crazies, however, will go for the cop. 

 

Just my opinion. Again, my only objection is tactical, not moral or legal.