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mikka1

How would you approach such a situation (P2P process...)

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...and here I am again with another round of permits that I am still waiting and already built plans for, LOL. But the issue this time seems to be the one I have not been ready for.

Apparently my PD religiously sends out questionnaires to both references every time I apply for permits even though the very same detective spoke to both of those guys TWICE over the last year. Moreover, after getting questionnaires back he feels he needs to TALK to BOTH of references again on the phone. And here comes an interesting part...

 

Roughly 2 months into the wait I get a polite letter from PD telling me that none of my references could be contacted over the phone and so that I should replace them with someone else. I came to the lady at my local PD the very same day I got this letter and she explained me that both references returned their questionnaires, but the detective was unable to reach either of them.

 

I immediately called both of my friends (and reached both from the very first call...) and they told me that indeed there had been ONE call to each of them from NJ number (they are both out of state and don't receive calls from NJ often, so they would've noticed for sure) and it happened that one of them was in the meeting and another had a cell on silent in the car. The lady in the PD gave me a phone number of the detective, and both of my friends started to call him.

 

One of them succeeded only after calling him every day for a week and always being forwarded straight to his voicemail. He left a couple of messages, but never heard back. Finally he reached the detective, spoke to him briefly and apparently he ticked this box out.

 

My other friend though can not reach this detective AT ALL. I would have probably thought of my friend being lazy or not pushy enough, but that's not the case as I spent the whole last week staying at his place, and he tried to call detective 2-3 times a day even with me present and he always ended up in a voicemail. He still keeps trying...

 

I frankly don't see what I can realistically do.

  • If I try to push it too harsh, I could see the detective just denying my application with a reason of "reference unreachable" or something around that and it will be very hard (if not impossible at all) to prove he was wrong...
  • I guess if I do nothing he will wait for another month or two... and deny me for the very same reason as above.
  • If I change the reference, it will first definitely slow down a process for at least another 2-3 weeks AND there will be no guarantee that the detective does not call my new reference while he is in a meeting / shower etc., and he'll end up in a same position.

 

So, I am not really asking for any *legal* advice or so, more like a practical question - what would YOU do in such a weird situation? Write this detective a letter? Ask my friend to write him a letter? If so, what exactly you would write? :)

I am puzzled, to say at least.

 

Thanks for any suggestions!

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I would contact NJSP with this problem. Then letter to the mayor's office, certified. They are jerking you around, send some back!

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I would contact NJSP with this problem. Then letter to the mayor's office, certified. They are jerking you around, send some back!

 

I might do it in the reverse order as my mayor has been quite helpful, but both of the two suggestions above are valid and great...

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I would sit down with the mayor and explain this is unacceptable and illegal, and explain how you don't want to sue your town but have been advised by council that you should.

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My philosophy has changed drastically over the last couple of years.  In all situations I am now done playing nice where the government is concerned.  Right to the chief, mayor, or show up at the monthly town counsel meeting and voice your concerns.  Name names and write letters to the editor.  They work for you and need to be reminded.

 

I'm not suggesting that you start out as a jerk.  Play nice as long as they play nice but as soon as anyone who is under your employ forgets that they are, go for the jugular.   

 

There are towns, PDs, and a few agencies that remember that they are there to serve the people and treat the public with respect and try to provide good service.  I am fortunate to live in an area where that is the norm.  But when that is not the situation - take em down!

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I would sit down with the mayor and explain this is unacceptable and illegal, and explain how you don't want to sue your town but have been advised by council that you should.

 

Well, I seriously see it quite hard to prove my point in such a conversation - if I were a mayor and/or detective or chief of PD, I would've totally played a dumb card - "No! We are not doing anything illegal, we need to have 2 references by law, we couldn't reach one _after numerous attempts_ (and I would never be able to prove otherwise) so we had to kindly suggest you to provide us with another reference that we could contact. End of story."

The problem is that I don't yet see what levers to push. When I had another issue 8 months ago with my mental health records lost somewhere, I clearly knew who to push / blame / demand to comply. This time round I don't see how to beat this "we were unable to contact your reference" card.

 

Do you think it makes sense if my friend writes a letter to the PD stating that he was calling them numerous times without any luck?

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I personally would call the Chief's office and leave word with the Chief's secretary 

that you wish to speak to the Chief personally. If the Chief does not  call you back

within a time frame you deem reasonable, than I would call the mayor's office.

 

Since the NJSP do not have jurisdiction  over township matters (HG permits are concidered a twp matter)

I highly doubt that will step in - jmo

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See if you can schedule a meeting with the detective and have your friend call your phone while you're in the meeting. Answer the phone and give it to the detective.

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See if you can schedule a meeting with the detective and have your friend call your phone while you're in the meeting. Answer the phone and give it to the detective.

 

 

forget scheduling a meeting.. just pick a day or two where you friend is available and just sit in the police station in the most obnoxious way possible and just wait for him... make it as annoying for them as they are making it for you.. 

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Set up a meeting with the Chief and bring your two references with id with you

 

I thought about this, but my friend is ~700 miles from NJ :) I guess that would be too high of a price for pieces of paper with a maximum of 6 moths validity even extended :)

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I personally would call the Chief's office and leave word with the Chief's secretary 

that you wish to speak to the Chief personally. If the Chief does not  call you back

within a time frame you deem reasonable, than I would call the mayor's office.

 

Since the NJSP do not have jurisdiction  over township matters (HG permits are concidered a twp matter)

I highly doubt that will step in - jmo

 

Jack's got it here.  Chief's secretary, explain the situation, politely, you wanted to "see if you could resolve it in the chief's office before having to take it further." 

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We just passed a privacy law last year. Nobody except law enforcement (and you) is supposed to know you have or want a gun permit or any kind. 

Contacting references should be illegal. 

 

I know PA law is different but PA passed a similar privacy law and in a settlement with Philadelphia and they agreed not to contact nor require references because it violated the privacy law. 

 

So maybe we should be looking into a similar lawsuit. We have had successes on this front, with Perez and McGovern being two recent cases. 

 

I would really love for the reference requirement to go away. 

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We just passed a privacy law last year. Nobody except law enforcement (and you) is supposed to know you have or want a gun permit or any kind. 

Contacting references should be illegal. 

 

I know PA law is different but PA passed a similar privacy law and in a settlement with Philadelphia and they agreed not to contact nor require references because it violated the privacy law. 

 

So maybe we should be looking into a similar lawsuit. We have had successes on this front, with Perez and McGovern being two recent cases. 

 

I would really love for the reference requirement to go away. 

 

And the "employer" requirement.  Sometimes, I think that's a worse issue than "references."   At least with references, you have the chance to choose he people with whom you want the PD to talk.... i.e. those that already know you own firearms, etc.  You might not want your employer to know that...

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Quick update - I was trying to get hold of detective every day last week, I visited PD twice basically to hear that "He is on the road, maybe will be later today...", "Normally he doesn't set appointments for firearm-related matters with applicants..." and, finally, "You'd better do it fast as he goes for a vacation next week" (so, he is likely off already).

 

This is kind of funny now. It is the third time I'm getting firearm papers from my PD and despite all my efforts to check, double check and push everything I could, it seems that I can't make it in less than 3 months. First time it took ~4 months due to "lost papers on mental", second time it took almost 4 months due to "replace the reference, haven't received a questionnaire from him" and now it is again past 3 months already with "can't talk to your reference over the phone". I start thinking that there's a kind of a "rule" or whatever in this PD that no firearm papers are to be issued quickly, LOL....

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