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NJ AK Law / seeing people at the range with 'em anyway....

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Yea I'm from Bergen county, sucks becauses there's only a handful of ranges that are within an hour drive

Yeah I know the area. My old man lives in Maywood. Guess GFH or Bullet hole is probably closest, unless your out by 287 then cherry ridge isn't too bad of a drive.

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For whoever is still wondering about what is "Substantially Identical" concerning AK-variants (Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic).  Straight from the AG.

 

 

Link to the New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice:  http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

 

TO: Director Terrence P. Farley, Division of Criminal Justice
All County Prosecutors
All Law Enforcement Chief Executives
FROM:    Attorney General Peter Verniero
DATE: August 19, 1996
SUBJECT: Guidelines Regarding the "Substantially Identical" Provision in the State's Assault Firearms Laws

 

I. Introduction

In recent weeks there has been a question about the meaning of the term "substantially identical" in New Jersey's assault firearms law. The Legislature addressed this question in the provisions of the Code of Criminal Justice, and despite the clarity of the law, it is appropriate for the Attorney General to provide guidance to the prosecutors in order to ensure that the law is administered uniformly and effectively throughout the State. N.J.S.A. 52:17B-98. I am directing the prosecutors, as chief law enforcement officers of their respective counties, to share this guidance with local police departments, who in turn should provide copies of this memorandum to any member of the public who requests information on assault firearms.

 

II. Guidelines

New Jersey law lists firearms that are prohibited "assault firearms." N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(1). In addition, the law provides that the term "assault firearm" includes, "Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed" in the law. N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(2). Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm.

We believe "substantially identical" is clear by its plain meaning. The Criminal Code provides that the statutes in the Code must be read "according to the fair import of their terms." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2c. The Criminal Code explains that where language may be susceptible to different readings it must be construed to "give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2a.(4), c. Simply put, the phrase "substantially identical" must be given its plain meaning, one that gives fair warning.

 

The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list.

 

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

 

 A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

  1. a folding or telescoping stock;
  2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
  3. a bayonet mount;
  4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
  5. a grenade launcher;

 

Following this, I'm not sure why NJ dealers won't sell/transfer an ak-variant that shows "AK-47" on the receiver.  It's clearly not about the name as highlighted above in red, but features/traits that are considered to be essential nature to the assault weapon.  Maybe I'm wrong about the name/model#/marking and having "AK47" on the receiver adds to the identity of the "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic", but it has nothing to do with the essential nature which is clearly defined.

 

 

 

To extend this further, here's a case from 2001 in NJ from a guy that shot up his ex-girlfriend's house with a Norinco Mak90.

 

Link:  https://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/mcs/case_law/343_njsuper_536.htm

 

The opinion on what's considered "Substantially Identical" is on page 9, which corresponds to the link above from the AG.

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 A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

  1. a folding or telescoping stock;  Pin it!
  2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; That's one!
  3. a bayonet mount; Remove it!
  4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and Muzzle Brake pinned and welded!
  5. a grenade launcher; Grind it off!

 

That leaves only one "evil" feature and is totally legal by statute!!!

 

Plaster AK-47 all over the rifle and it means nothing to it's legality in the PRNJ!!!!!

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But....

 

Going back to Vlad's link in the Gun Law Discussion section [  https://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/mcs/case_law/322_njsuper_401.pdf ]

 

The example in the case above had a guy with an "M1 Carbine type" rifle that had the words "M1" and "Carbine" separately stamped onto the barrel, not even on the receiver.  The barrel read "Universal M1 Autoloading Carbine" that was still interpreted as an assault weapon (probably more so because the fool hid the rifle in the cellar and told an officer that he might have an illegal assault weapon).  So maybe the "AK" portion still holds even though it's an abbreviation?

 

meaningless technicalities...  what a waste of tax-payer money

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But....

 

Going back to Vlad's link in the Gun Law Discussion section [  https://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/mcs/case_law/322_njsuper_401.pdf ]

 

The example in the case above had a guy with an "M1 Carbine type" rifle that had the words "M1" and "Carbine" separately stamped onto the barrel, not even on the receiver.  The barrel read "Universal M1 Autoloading Carbine" that was still interpreted as an assault weapon (probably more so because the fool hid the rifle in the cellar and told an officer that he might have an illegal assault weapon).  So maybe the "AK" portion still holds even though it's an abbreviation?

 

meaningless technicalities...  what a waste of tax-payer money

But nowhere in the statute does it list a model # stamped on the gun as an evil feature!!!

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doesn't matter what it says...

 

some guns are banned by name.. those are assault weapons

some guns are banned by TYPE.. those are also assault weapons..

 

the guideline says.. "AK TYPE GUNS ARE ASSAULT WEAPONS" which means that per the wording.. AK type guns are banned.. no need to be substantially identical if it is outright banned by name or in this case type.. 

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II. Guidelines

New Jersey law lists firearms that are prohibited "assault firearms." N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(1). In addition, the law provides that the term "assault firearm" includes, "Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed" in the law. N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(2). Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm.

We believe "substantially identical" is clear by its plain meaning. The Criminal Code provides that the statutes in the Code must be read "according to the fair import of their terms." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2c. The Criminal Code explains that where language may be susceptible to different readings it must be construed to "give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2a.(4), c. Simply put, the phrase "substantially identical" must be given its plain meaning, one that gives fair warning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Assault firearms" means:

1. Any of the following firearms:

.......

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

 

.....

 

 

not sure how much more clear it could be.. substantially identical ONLY applies to guns that are similar to those that are banned and carry enough "evil features".. if the gun is outright banned the evil feature game doesn't apply.. 

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It's sketchy.. I mean what makes a rifle an AK type? The name? The appearance? The action? The caliber? It is vague on purpose.

 

I think that the INTENTION of the law is fairly clear to ban as many scary looking guns as possible.... and I think that if we are being honest with ourselves.. we know what an "AK Type" and an "m1 carbine type" and an "uzi type" is.. lol

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We could/might know what the "AK type" or "M1 carbine type" implicitly refers to, but the wording does not explicitly identify anything which is why I referenced the Norinco case and the statute speaking of having to be "substantially identical".  What exactly and by definition is an "Avtomat Kalashnikov Type Semi-automatic firearm"?  This is where I think "Substantially Identical" must come into play because I'm pretty sure no one here has an "Avtomat Kalashnikov" rifle.  Even back in 1998 by a study done by the Dept of Treasury, they identified 39 variants off of the old design alone - all slightly different in appearance, function, or form.  Exactly how we have AR's (see article link below).

 

To say that we have "Avtomat Kalashnikov type" rifles is similar to saying that a Geo Prism IS in fact a Toyota Corolla.  Is a Prism a Corolla-type vehicle?  Maybe, but not the same thing.  

 

some guns are banned by name.. those are assault weapons

some guns are banned by TYPE.. those are also assault weapons..  No where in the guideline is "type" defined

 

the guideline says.. "AK TYPE GUNS ARE ASSAULT WEAPONS" which means that per the wording.. AK type guns are banned.. no need to be substantially identical if it is outright banned by name or in this case type.. Pretty sure this is incorrect.

 

The guideline says this:

 

"Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm."

 

There's nothing that speaks of "Type", but having to be substantially identical if manufactured under a different designation, which is basically everything outside of a true Avtomat Kalashnikov, or maybe this where we can't have "AK" anywhere on the firearm because it would fall under the 'designation' portion of the wording.

 

Then it goes on to explain the evil-features game as being part of the "essential nature" of said assault weapon.

 

 

But then again, this is my interpretation... 

 

 

Here's a NY Times article touching points on why the "Substantially Identical" statute came to be. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/13/nyregion/shooting-holes-in-the-assault-weapons-ban-one-rifle-at-a-time.html

 

 

 

I welcome any and all corrections to my post...  

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How many of you guys were around 25 years ago when this went down?

 

They banned all this shit.

 

I still see people complaining that it is ridiculous that the law makes an AR illegal if you don't pin the stock. They didn't make unpinned stocks illegal, they made ARs illegal. "Evil Features" are not ways for you to own outlawed guns by cutting them off, they are ways to outlaw guns they didn't know the names of when the law was passed.

 

I actually find it amazing that New Jersey has put up with our crap for so long. I think they could throw most of you in jail with a simple executive action or a regulatory change. Obviously there is no change in the law required to throw you in jail, it already says 90% of the members here are criminals.

 

I don't think that will go down like that (going to jail), I think there are so many out there for so long, and the fact that many of you bought from an FFL and that should be some sort of safe harbor or due diligence since the FFL is a New Jersey state licensee. But I do think you guys are whistling past the graveyard when it comes to this. I'm not predicting doom and gloom, that is a separate issue. Just the tenuous situation of current firearms laws, their enforcement, and the attitudes of current gun owners.

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In enforcing this law, prosecutors and police should remember that an assault
firearms offense requires proof that the defendant knows he or she possesses an assault firearm,
e.g., that the defendant knows that the firearm is "substantially identical" to one of the named
assault weapons.

 

The statement above should be an effective defense in most cases! How can the State of New Jersey know what is in my head??? Then have to prove that I knew it at the time of arrest???

 

If any two people looked at 2 apples on a plate and were asked if they were "substantially identical", one might say "yes they are both red apples"!

The other might say" No, the stem is thicker and a bit longer on the one on the right and one on the left has a brown spot"!

 

To a poor person $100 is substantially more than $20! To me they are both pocket change.

 

Substantial and substantially are in the eye of the beholder! How can anyone be convicted on such a vague term??

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In enforcing this law, prosecutors and police should remember that an assault

firearms offense requires proof that the defendant knows he or she possesses an assault firearm,

e.g., that the defendant knows that the firearm is "substantially identical" to one of the named

assault weapons.

 

The statement above should be an effective defense in most cases! How can the State of New Jersey know what is in my head??? Then have to prove that I knew it at the time of arrest???

 

If any two people looked at 2 apples on a plate and were asked if they were "substantially identical", one might say "yes they are both red apples"!

The other might say" No, the stem is thicker and a bit longer on the one on the right and one on the left has a brown spot"!

 

To a poor person $100 is substantially more than $20! To me they are both pocket change.

 

Substantial and substantially are in the eye of the beholder! How can anyone be convicted on such a vague term??

 

 

substantially identical is clear by the explanation of it relating to features

banned list is clear when applied to named banned weapons

 

what is slightly less clear is "type".. if we want to pretend we don't know what type means for the sake of pretending to be ignorant to the facts I am fine with that.. but at the end of the day we know what an AR is... we know what an M1 carbine is.. and we know what an AK is.. 

historically in NJ AK type guns are sold on a regular basis

historically in NJ M1 carbine type has been a clear NO

 

I am left confused by the last part.. 

 

substantially identical does not relate to type as ALL of that type of gun is outright banned.. 

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I love AK's but this thread makes my head hurt. You're all just beating a dead horse at this point. Now can we just weld on muzzle brakes, shave bayo lugs, and enjoy shooting our AK's please?

Yep! Just got an O-Pap! Let's do this! Lol...

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Haha well most of the time people experience cheek slap from Yugo's they aren't shooting them correctly. Move your cheek weld forward and the slap will disappear. Another option is to shave the top comb of the stock off which I actually did for a buddy.

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Haha well most of the time people experience cheek slap from Yugo's they aren't shooting them correctly. Move your cheek weld forward and the slap will disappear. Another option is to shave the top comb of the stock off which I actually did for a buddy.

 

100% correct!

 

After reading all of the "horror stories" about Yugo cheek slap I was expecting to get beat to hell when I shot my NPAP for the first time. However, I quickly realized that if you follow the instructions of getting your cheek down on the stock with your nose almost touching the dust cover (and squaring your shoulders towards the target) then there is almost zero cheek slap.

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Saiga rifles are allowed to be imported into the USA (or were before that was stopped for embargo reasons involving our relationship with the Russian Republic) because they were deemed to be sporting by the ATF and take different magazines, have different triggers and no pistol grip whatsoever. A safe choice in NJ.

 

I agree that nobody can really establish what 'avtomat kalashnikov type" is.

 

I don't even know know what 'avtomat' is. If it means automatic then it is not an assault firearm because the statute in question deals only with semi auto firearms. An automatic gun that is semi automatic doesnt exist unless it has select fire capability to shoot both ways. Saigas and compliant AK rifles sold don't have that. Saiga is not automatic. In any event, 20 someodd years later the state has not taken any effort to correct spelling or clarify what they might have meant by 'avtomat' which is a word that appears in no english dictionary and does not appear to have been stamped on any guns sold in this state. If "avtomat" is a russian language word, that just further shows how ineffective it is-congress enacting statutes in a foreign language would be unconstitutionally vague. We can't be expected to understand russian common adjectives if that is what it is. If "avtomat" is a proper noun identifying a specific make or model of gun, well there are no guns formally named as such that I have ever seen.

 

As for "kalashnikov", that is the name of a man not a gun or a company. Saiga is made by a corporate entity named Izmash. M1 Carbine, by comparison, precisely identifies a rifle by the precise US Military designation assigned to it by the US armed forces. A very definite identification which is why the NJSP wont allow them to be sold here.

 

If dealers in NJ, who are being supervised by NJSP are transferring Saigas and other similar rifles that the ATF deems sporting and allows to be imported into the US despite the Federal ban on importation of assault firearms, and that comply with the list of evil features the NJ AG has promulgated, that means they are considered to be legal by the NJ authorities under existing law. If anything, the NJSP and the NJ AG must be as perplexed by what, if anything, "avtomat kalashnikov" means and have found it to essentially be impossible to clearly interpret in concrete terms.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

 

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Saiga rifles are allowed to be imported into the USA (or were before that was stopped for embargo reasons involving our relationship with the Russian Republic) because they were deemed to be sporting by the ATF and take different magazines, have different triggers and no pistol grip whatsoever. A safe choice in NJ.

 

I agree that nobody can really establish what 'avtomat kalashnikov type" is.

 

I don't even know know what 'avtomat' is. If it means automatic then it is not an assault firearm because the statute in question deals only with semi auto firearms. An automatic gun that is semi automatic doesnt exist unless it has select fire capability to shoot both ways. Saigas and compliant AK rifles sold don't have that. Saiga is not automatic. In any event, 20 someodd years later the state has not taken any effort to correct spelling or clarify what they might have meant by 'avtomat' which is a word that appears in no english dictionary and does not appear to have been stamped on any guns sold in this state. If "avtomat" is a russian language word, that just further shows how ineffective it is-congress enacting statutes in a foreign language would be unconstitutionally vague. We can't be expected to understand russian common adjectives if that is what it is. If "avtomat" is a proper noun identifying a specific make or model of gun, well there are no guns formally named as such that I have ever seen.

 

As for "kalashnikov", that is the name of a man not a gun or a company. Saiga is made by a corporate entity named Izmash. M1 Carbine, by comparison, precisely identifies a rifle by the precise US Military designation assigned to it by the US armed forces. A very definite identification which is why the NJSP wont allow them to be sold here.

 

If dealers in NJ, who are being supervised by NJSP are transferring Saigas and other similar rifles that the ATF deems sporting and allows to be imported into the US despite the Federal ban on importation of assault firearms, and that comply with the list of evil features the NJ AG has promulgated, that means they are considered to be legal by the NJ authorities under existing law. If anything, the NJSP and the NJ AG must be as perplexed by what, if anything, "avtomat kalashnikov" means and have found it to essentially be impossible to clearly interpret in concrete terms.

 

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You bring up some interesting points.

 

"avtomat" or "автомат" is a term used pretty much exclusively in the former USSR.

it means an "automatic carbine" or a carbine capable of full fire.

AK or "avtomat Kalashnikova" or "автомат Калашникова" was produced from 1949 to 1959. After that it was its modifications AKM, AKS, AKSU, AK74, AK101 and so on ...

 

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The NJ law allows some semi-auto rifles to be sold not on the named banned list and without the features that we all are aware of. The NY SAFE act bans all semi-auto rifles with a pistol grip, as if the grip really make the rifle more dangerous. That has created some very weird looking AR type rifles with snake like fixed stocks. They are so dam ugly but legal. The left wing politicians in that state were successful in making legal semi autos ugly.  If Donald Trump is elected and fills the Supreme Court with Conservative judges, it will provide the only opportunity for the NY safe act to be overturned. If Hillary is elected the game is over!!!!

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You bring up some interesting points.

 

"avtomat" or "автомат" is a term used pretty much exclusively in the former USSR.

it means an "automatic carbine" or a carbine capable of full fire.

AK or "avtomat Kalashnikova" or "автомат Калашникова" was produced from 1949 to 1959. After that it was its modifications AKM, AKS, AKSU, AK74, AK101 and so on ...

 

"avtomat" is a Russian word, not a term exclusive to the USSR.  There is no Soviet Union anymore, but the word still exists in all of its former 15 republics.  It's not only used for weapons.  For instance an old school pay phone is called a "Telefonnyye Avtomat." In this instance, it means "machine"  It also does not mean rifle, that would be "vintovka".  Colloquially, avtomat could be construed as "assault rifle" but the word is not exclusive to this meaning. Saying avtomat, I could be referring to a Pepsi vending machine as well.    

 

 Carbine would be "karabin." hence the SKS.  Samozaryandyji Karabin Simonava or Simonov's Self-loading/reloading Carbine.

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"avtomat" is a Russian word, not a term exclusive to the USSR. There is no Soviet Union anymore, but the word still exists in all of its former 15 republics. It's not only used for weapons. For instance an old school pay phone is called a "Telefonnyye Avtomat." In this instance, it means "machine" It also does not mean rifle, that would be "vintovka". Colloquially, avtomat could be construed as "assault rifle" but the word is not exclusive to this meaning. Saying avtomat, I could be referring to a Pepsi vending machine as well.

 

Carbine would be "karabin." hence the SKS. Samozaryandyji Karabin Simonava or Simonov's Self-loading/reloading Carbine.

This.

Avtomat just means automated machine.

 

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