Hollow points

[mark_anthony_78 0]

There just ain't enough   in the world for some arguments seen in threads like these.

 

 

You can   all you want, but the fact remains plenty of people can be, and have been, charged with possession of hollow points in otherwise benign situations that wouldn't be crimes anywhere else in the country.

 

Yes, I do have hollow points at home, but they are not what I have loaded in the firearms because I remember that I live in NJ which will not hesitate to charge me with any/every firearm law on the books should I be unfortunate enough to actually have to use one for self defense.

[Tack Tickle 0]

If you are so nervous to "use" your hollow points then get Federal Guard Dog rounds otherwise known as Expanding Full Metal Jackets.

 

So exemption (2) above talks about "keeping" the ammo at home. Doesn't mention "using" the ammo... food for thought there...

 

I just load up with Hornady Critical Defense instead, which is (unofficially at least) not considered hollow point.

[njpilot 671]

You can   all you want, but the fact remains plenty of people can be, and have been, charged with possession of hollow points in otherwise benign situations that wouldn't be crimes anywhere else in the country.

 

Yes, I do have hollow points at home, but they are not what I have loaded in the firearms because I remember that I live in NJ which will not hesitate to charge me with any/every firearm law on the books should I be unfortunate enough to actually have to use one for self defense.

I'm sure GRIZ will respond as he has in the past, but can you please inform us of the "plenty of people" who "have been charged with possession of hollow points in otherwise benign situations"?

 

Haven't really heard of too many.

[mark_anthony_78 0]

Seriously, do I need to google "NJ hollow point illegal possession" for you and post the numerous links that pop up, not the least of which is the high profile Brian Aitken case, the high profile Shanneen Allen case, the link posted earlier in this thread, and a whole bunch of others that Google manages to find with no problem?

 

Why give the prosecutor an add-on charge on a silver plate when there are (likely) legal and just as effective options?

[GlastonburyNative 0]

You can   all you want, but the fact remains plenty of people can be, and have been, charged with possession of hollow points in otherwise benign situations that wouldn't be crimes anywhere else in the country.

 

Yes, I do have hollow points at home, but they are not what I have loaded in the firearms because I remember that I live in NJ which will not hesitate to charge me with any/every firearm law on the books should I be unfortunate enough to actually have to use one for self defense.

 

I think my apartment neighbors would appreciate the use of hollow point ammo if I were even involved in a self defense situation in my unit.  Over-penetrating and possibly striking your neighbors would most likely unleash the wrath that is the NJ firearm law.  I would never load ball ammo unless I was at the range.

[mark_anthony_78 0]

 I would never load ball ammo unless I was at the range.

 

 

I agree that ball ammo sucks for self defense.   That's why I use this:

 

[Old School 611]

Here's the deal!  The charge is "Possession of hollow points while in commission of a crime"

 

So you shoot a bad guy.  Until exonerated you are charged with a crime for the shooting plus possession of hollow points.

 

If you are cleared of the crime the hollow points charge goes away.

 

Got it?

 

If you expect me to sight a statute you can kiss my A$$

[Tack Tickle 0]

While your thought process is logical, you are referring to people that were already comitting a "crime" according to NJ statutes.

 

Aitken did not purchase them and head to his dwelling or directly to the shooting range. Allen was concealing a firearm in NJ without a permit. The hollow points were all secondary offenses.

 

If you are legally defending your home and not using excessive force you will not be committing a crime, hence the possession in your home will be 100% legal.

 

 

Seriously, do I need to google "NJ hollow point illegal possession" for you and post the numerous links that pop up, not the least of which is the high profile Brian Aitken case, the high profile Shanneen Allen case, the link posted earlier in this thread, and a whole bunch of others that Google manages to find with no problem?

 

Why give the prosecutor an add-on charge on a silver plate when there are (likely) legal and just as effective options?

[Old School 611]

While your thought process is logical, you are referring to people that were already comitting a "crime" according to NJ statutes.

 

Aitken did not purchase them and head to his dwelling or directly to the shooting range. Allen was concealing a firearm in NJ without a permit. The hollow points were all secondary offenses.

 

If you are legally defending your home and not using excessive force you will not be committing a crime, hence the possession in your home will be 100% legal.

 

 

 

How long have you lived in NJ?  If you shot someone in self defense there is a 99% chance the prosecutor will charge you to cover his A$$ or his/her political agenda.

[WP22 1,558]

You can   all you want, but the fact remains plenty of people can be, and have been, charged with possession of hollow points in otherwise benign situations that wouldn't be crimes anywhere else in the country.

 

Yes, I do have hollow points at home, but they are not what I have loaded in the firearms because I remember that I live in NJ which will not hesitate to charge me with any/every firearm law on the books should I be unfortunate enough to actually have to use one for self defense.

 

 

See old school post. See how easy its is. For real, it's that simple. STOP over analyzing stuff.

 

Here's the deal!  The charge is "Possession of hollow points while in commission of a crime"

 

So you shoot a bad guy.  Until exonerated you are charged with a crime for the shooting plus possession of hollow points.

 

If you are cleared of the crime the hollow points charge goes away.

 

Got it?

 

If you expect me to sight a statute you can kiss my A$$

[mark_anthony_78 0]

Here's the deal!  The charge is "Possession of hollow points while in commission of a crime"

 

So you shoot a bad guy.  Until exonerated you are charged with a crime for the shooting plus possession of hollow points.

 

If you are cleared of the crime the hollow points charge goes away.

 

Got it?

 

If you expect me to sight a statute you can kiss my A$$

 

 

I'll post it:

 

 

f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than .025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and © is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. For purposes of this section, a collector may possess not more than three examples of each distinctive variation of the ammunition described above. A distinctive variation includes a different head stamp, composition, design, or color.

 

 

 

There's nothing in there about "during the commission of a crime".  If you possess them, it's illegal, except for the narrow exemptions.   The ONLY mention of self defense in the 2C:39-6 exemptions is for pepper spray.

 

Even if you are cleared of a homicide charge, there is nothing legally preventing them from pursuing discharge of the hollow points as a crime.

 

I'm not supporting it.  I think it's a dumb law.   I'm just saying don't be surprised to have the book thrown at you if you ever have ANY firearm related arrests/issues.

[Tack Tickle 0]

That is absolutely not true. While there is a chance the prosecutor might have a political agenda there are many good attorneys in NJ that will make sure "the truth shall set you free".

 

How long have you lived in NJ?  If you shot someone in self defense there is a 99% chance the prosecutor will charge you to cover his A$$ or his/her political agenda.

[WP22 1,558]

On the other hand, these are 100% NJSP legal and approved for any situation.

 

 

 

[Tack Tickle 0]

For anyone questioning if someone would NOT get charged with a crime... Here is an excerpt from a case in 2008 where a gentlemen defending his home was NOT charged with a crime.

 

 

The 66-year-old homeowner has hired attorney Evan F. Nappen of Eatontown, who specializes in gun law. No charges have been filed against the homeowner.

Ocean County Medical Examiner Dr. Hydow Park described the manner of death as a “homicide,” said Capt. Thomas Hayes of the Ocean County Prosecutor’s Office. The manner of death can be listed as one of five designations: homicide, suicide, natural, accidental and undetermined.

A homicide designation indicates that one person caused the death of another. “Homicide” does not determine criminality, Hayes said.

Nappen said he is prepared to defend his client, who he said was well within his rights to shoot the intruder, Tucker, in “self defense.”

Nappen said his client was “truly afraid” for his own welfare when he found Tucker in his home.

“He is not someone who, in any way, is happy that he had to cause harm to another person,” Nappen said of his client. Tucker’s passing “is not something that makes him happy. But, when it comes down to it and your life is in danger, you have to defend yourself.”

New Jersey law states that an individual who discovers an unwanted person in their home has the right to presume they are in “imminent danger” and to take the steps to protect themselves, Nappen said.

“If they are in your home, there is a presumption of imminent danger,” Nappen said. The law puts a heavy burden on the prosecutor to prove that the intruder posed no threat to the homeowner who lawfully defends himself, he said.

“He was definitely in fear of his life and rightly so,” Nappen said.

[Old School 611]

I'll post it:

 

 

f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than .025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and © is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. For purposes of this section, a collector may possess not more than three examples of each distinctive variation of the ammunition described above. A distinctive variation includes a different head stamp, composition, design, or color.

 

 

 

There's nothing in there about "during the commission of a crime".  If you possess them, it's illegal, except for the narrow exemptions.   The ONLY mention of self defense in the 2C:39-6 exemptions is for pepper spray.

 

Even if you are cleared of a homicide charge, there is nothing legally preventing them from pursuing discharge of the hollow points as a crime.

 

I'm not supporting it.  I think it's a dumb law.   I'm just saying don't be surprised to have the book thrown at you if you ever have ANY firearm related arrests/issues.

 

 

http://www.nj.gov/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html

[Old School 611]

That is absolutely not true. While there is a chance the prosecutor might have a political agenda there are many good attorneys in NJ that will make sure "the truth shall set you free".

 

 

 

OK I believe you!  

 

Now tell me about Unicorns...

 

Yes the lawyer will get you off because you will be arrested.

 

I tell people if you use a firearm in self defense the first shot is $50-100,000

[Tack Tickle 0]

He was not charged with a crime period. I'm sure he shelled out a few g's to retain ole Nappen. There have been many cases where forensic reviews showed no crime was committed.

 

Unicorns are horses that were sprinkled with fairy dust at a young age. Their horns are magical and very Sought after. Some can even fly. They are also known to fart rainbows.

 

Geese, soon your going to ask me if Fairies are real...

 

OK I believe you!  

 

Now tell me about Unicorns...

 

Yes the lawyer will get you off because you will be arrested.

 

I tell people if you use a firearm in self defense the first shot is $50-100,000

[mark_anthony_78 0]

What was the point of your link, Old School? It didn't refute anything I said.

 

Nobody is arguing the fact that you are allowed to simply possess hollow points at the exempted locations, even if that possession is in the chamber of a firearm.

 

Discharging them is not exempted except for target practice at authorized ranges.

[PK90 3,570]

What was the point of your link, Old School? It didn't refute anything I said.

 

Nobody is arguing the fact that you are allowed to simply possess hollow points at the exempted locations, even if that possession is in the chamber of a firearm.

 

Discharging them is not exempted except for target practice at authorized ranges. cite please

[mark_anthony_78 0]

 

. cite please

 

 

 

Jeez, it's right in the law.

 

2C:39-1(f)    Possession is illegal, except for 2C:39-6 exemptions.

 

2C:39-6 exemptions says nothing about use in self defense.   The state police clarifiction addresses hunting (use) and target practice (use) and locations for possession.

 

 

This is the problem with making EVERYTHING illegal, except for narrow exemptions.   We all perhaps know the "intent" of the law, but as written the "actual" law does not "allow" it.

 

I will have to browse through Evan Nappen's book at my club, because I think even he says something similar (i.e. don't risk it) and he IS a lawyer.

 

 

NOW we're just going around in circles.  Use HP's if you want, I wish it was clear that we could.   Just saying if you shoot a bad guy it's entirely possible that it will be added on as another charge, and you are all just banking on anti-gun NJ courts to determine how justifiable the homicide was in order to clear your name.   How much you want to bet hollow points would be a major issue in a NJ civil trial too?  (Look everyone, he HAD to be negligent in my client's death, he was using ammunition that is severely restricted in this state...)

 

Why voluntarily give them that opportunity?  If ball ammo was the only other option, I'd risk it too, but I can mitigate that risk a tiny bit by just buying the next box over on the gun store's shelf.

[gnardesigner 0]

Nowhere in the NJ statutes does it say you can not shoot hollow point bullets; they only cover possession. Someone correct me if I'm wrong and cite the statute please.

 

I am in my home. Therefore I can possess hollow points legally, whether I choose to shoot them or not.

 

I presume some of you saw this article this morning, Hence this discussion.

 

http://www.nj.com/monmouth/index.ssf/2014/08/more_than_47_weapons_seized_from_ocean_township_home.html#incart_most-comments

The comments at the bottom of this article have me wanting to pull my hair out.  Why do we live in a state with such idiots? 

[PK90 3,570]

Wow. :   Stop making things up.

 

... Discharging them is not exempted except for target practice at authorized ranges.

 

For something to be exempt, it must be against the law to start with. Where in the law does it say discharging or using HPs is illegal? It only states possession, then exempts them in certain ways.

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

If possession is illegal are we better off to make sure we give all of them to the bad guy at very high speed?

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[mark_anthony_78 0]

Wow. :   Stop making things up.

 

 

For something to be exempt, it must be against the law to start with. Where in the law does it say discharging or using HPs is illegal? It only states possession, then exempts them in certain ways.

 

How are you going to "use" something without being in "possession" of it?

 

NJ makes "possession" of firearms and hollow points illegal in ALL circumstances (therefore making their use ALSO illegal) EXCEPT in the defined exemptions.

 

Seriously, this is not hard logic.  Read the words in the law, not what you "think" they should say or what we "wish" the meaning should be.

 

You can legally "possess" hollow points in your home, that's it.   Whether you get charged or not is a different matter.  Not everyone who speeds gets a ticket, but the state is capable of doing so if they wish.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Enough already. You have over-analyzed this to death, much to the detriment of those that believe anything they read on the Internet.

 

Possession in the home is exempted. As Paul pointed out there are no statutes making it illegal to use hollow points - only to possess them outside of the exempted areas.

 

 ad infinitum

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[mark_anthony_78 0]

Ah, whatever.

 

Just hope that if you are ever involved in a DGU it's determined to be justifiable, because if it's not, each and every hollow point in your magazine is an *additional* 18 months in the clink.   270 months is a long time for a full magazine of HP's, let alone all the spare mags you have laying around.

 

Something that could potentially be avoided just by purchasing a different brand of ammo...

 

Considering the HP charges were the only ones that stuck for Aitken should tell you how the court feels about them.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

If possession is illegal are we better off to make sure we give all of them to the bad guy at very high speed?

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

BEST   POST  ON  THIS  THREAD!!

 

Beer's on me after my next IDPA appearance at SCFGPA, lol!

 

Dave

[M4BGRINGO 139]

BEST   POST  ON  THIS  THREAD!!

 

Beer's on me after my next IDPA appearance at SCFGPA, lol!

 

Dave

1200fps sounds like a nice number to me..............  

[Shocker 151]

If possession is illegal are we better off to make sure we give all of them to the bad guy at very high speed?

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

Apparently Nappen says it is indeed possible to charge a BG with unlawful possesion if you shoot said BG during a home invasion or whatever.

 

The truth of the matter is once the projectile hits ANYTHING (wall, BG, dirt...) it won't be a hollow point any more, whether clogged with debris or deformed into a mushroom

[PK90 3,570]

... The truth of the matter is once the projectile hits ANYTHING (wall, BG, dirt...) it won't be a hollow point any more, whether clogged with debris or deformed into a mushroom

True. Even water will expand the HP.