Bulgarian AK74 Legal?

[Carcano 14]

All Colt ARS are legal as long as they are not substantially identical.

 

So a SP1 lower would be legal?

[Carcano 14]

The H-BAR/Target Match are the same as other Colt AR-15's...some (maybe all) have the sear block but that's the only difference.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The law says avtomat Kalashnikov type. Since when does AK have to stand for that. What if I interpret as being the awesome kittens 74 model. It's no more or less Kalashnikov than an mAK

 

 

if we are "keeping it real' the reality is that as the law is LITERALLY written ALL avtomat Kalashnikov type guns are ILLEGAL by NJ definition.. as you pointed out it has NOTHING to do with what is written on the gun which if you take it at face value is far worse..

 

it means that in NJ.. you can NOT own ANY avtomat Kalashnikov type guns... now in practice many types of these guns are "allowed" but not approved.. and what I mean by that is gun dealers bring them in.. they are bought and sold and life goes on.. but that does not mean that they are approved..

 

and if you think I am wrong... just look to the M1 carbine.. and the variants NOT stamped M1 carbine..

 

it says "type" and by any normal common language that would apply to ANY of those types of guns.. WE at heart all know what that really means.. but on a legal level?

[BMWR12 35]

So a SP1 lower would be legal?

I would say no because they also say AR-15 on them. They also made a sporter model that says Ar15-A2 on the receiver.

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

if we are "keeping it real' the reality is that as the law is LITERALLY written ALL avtomat Kalashnikov type guns are ILLEGAL by NJ definition.. as you pointed out it has NOTHING to do with what is written on the gun which if you take it at face value is far worse..

 

it means that in NJ.. you can NOT own ANY avtomat Kalashnikov type guns... now in practice many types of these guns are "allowed" but not approved.. and what I mean by that is gun dealers bring them in.. they are bought and sold and life goes on.. but that does not mean that they are approved..

 

and if you think I am wrong... just look to the M1 carbine.. and the variants NOT stamped M1 carbine..

 

it says "type" and by any normal common language that would apply to ANY of those types of guns.. WE at heart all know what that really means.. but on a legal level?

The "substantially identical" portion of the NJ AWB was ruled unconstitutional due it being too vague, after a 1996 lawsuit. The judge in that case then ordered then AG Peter Verniero to define "substantially identical", which he did by essentially plagiarizing the then federal AWB's "evil features" list. This made any firearm not mentioned by name on the AWB list legal if it doesn't have enough "evil features". If the "substantially identical" standard were still being used, Saiga's, MAK's, WASR's, etc would all be illegal.

 

As for the M1 carbine variant debacle, there is nothing in any law or court ruling I can see that would make them illegal if they don't have the "evil features". They were banned by AG Paula Dow almost certainly because she is a raging gun hater and nothing more. If someone has the cash to sue, I can't see why her ruling would stand if the Verniero standard is going to be continued to be used.

[intercooler 41]

and the fact that MOST m1 carbines actually don't say "m1 carbine" makes it odd no one hasn't

most say "U.S. Carbine Cal .30 ML"

[Carcano 14]

The "substantially identical" portion of the NJ AWB was ruled unconstitutional due it being too vague, after a 1996 lawsuit. The judge in that case then ordered then AG Peter Verniero to define "substantially identical", which he did by essentially plagiarizing the then federal AWB's "evil features" list. This made any firearm not mentioned by name on the AWB list legal if it doesn't have enough "evil features". If the "substantially identical" standard were still being used, Saiga's, MAK's, WASR's, etc would all be illegal.

 

As for the M1 carbine variant debacle, there is nothing in any law or court ruling I can see that would make them illegal if they don't have the "evil features". They were banned by AG Paula Dow almost certainly because she is a raging gun hater and nothing more. If someone has the cash to sue, I can't see why her ruling would stand if the Verniero standard is going to be continued to be used.

 

Log a US Carbine out to me, I'll be the test case

[PK90 3,570]

Attempting to get the NJAG to allow "M1 carbine type" firearms to be considered NJ Legal based on the "substantially identical" clause is opening Pandora's Box on "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms".

 

ETA: It is better to let sleeping dogs lie.

[Carcano 14]

and the fact that MOST m1 carbines actually don't say "m1 carbine" makes it odd no one hasn't

most say "U.S. Carbine Cal .30 ML"

 

Most of them ones I've seen (no, none in my house ) have "US Carbine" instead of "M1 Carbine"...

 

I think PK90 sold some M1 clones and the state told him to get them back or something along those lines...

[carl_g 568]

The thing about the AK "type" that I don't get is what determines "type?" The action? Where it's made? The look? The caliber it shoots?

Probably all of the above.. But it's so intentionally vague that it scared me to have one in my car going to and from the range.

[PK90 3,570]

The NJSP FIU told Cheyenne Mountain Outfitters in Robbinsville that ALL AK Types were illegal. This was when someone purchased an IOI AK Type. The NJSP requested all sold IOIs to be returned. CMO pulled all their AKs, WASRs, SARs and Saigas off the racks and refused to sell them anymore. I am not sure that this is still the case.

[Carcano 14]

The thing about the AK "type" that I don't get is what determines "type?" The action? Where it's made? The look? The caliber it shoots?

Probably all of the above.. But it's so intentionally vague that it scared me to have one in my car going to and from the range.

 

I spoke to an FFL about this, the AK-74 semi-auto rifle is NJ legal (muzzle break must be pinned and bayonet lug ground off) as they are not substantially identical.

[Carcano 14]

The NJSP FIU told Cheyenne Mountain Outfitters in Robbinsville that ALL AK Types were illegal. This was when someone purchased an IOI AK Type. The NJSP requested all sold IOIs to be returned. CMO pulled all their AKs, WASRs, SARs and Saigas off the racks and refused to sell them anymore. I am not sure that this is still the case.

 

FIU must have been having a bad day

 

They missed the other 20+ stores stocking and selling AK clones.

[PK90 3,570]

They look the other way. When someone brings a light to a situation, they will take action.

[Carcano 14]

They look the other way. When someone brings a light to a situation, they will take action.

 

It's just mind blowing, I can buy WASR, PTR, AR, etc. pattern rifles in shops around this state but a little WW2 vintage M1 Carbine is considered a killing machine...

[vladtepes 1,060]

As for the M1 carbine variant debacle, there is nothing in any law or court ruling I can see that would make them illegal if they don't have the "evil features". They were banned by AG Paula Dow almost certainly because she is a raging gun hater and nothing more. If someone has the cash to sue, I can't see why her ruling would stand if the Verniero standard is going to be continued to be used.

 

but that is exactly the point..

 

"AK TYPE" or "m1 CARBINE TYPE"

on paper.. there is no difference...

 

and how would they prove it? what case would they bring? (assuming they felt like it?)

 

they would arrest you.. and charge you.. and then stick you in front of a jury made up of the general public.. and parade your AK variant around the court.. which we all know is an "AK TYPE"

 

a wasr.. saiga... etc. are all "AK TYPE" guns in the same way an M&P15 is an "AR TYPE" gun.. in that it shares an identical operation.. we can pretend that it doesn't.. but on paper.. ALL of the AK type guns are in the same exact boat as M1 carbine type guns.. they are both.. by the literally wording of the AWB.. illegal.. if the "evil feature list" set a precedent than the M1 carbine types would be legal as well.. but we all know the story with that..

 

as a former NJ resident with a love for the AK platform.. this DID concern me at times..

[mipafox 438]

It's just mind blowing, I can buy WASR, PTR, AR, etc. pattern rifles in shops around this state but a little WW2 vintage M1 Carbine is considered a killing machine...

You are cheating. They banned all of it, you just managed to find loopholes for some of them. Nothing mind blowing about it.

[Carcano 14]

You are cheating. They banned all of it, you just managed to find loopholes for some of them. Nothing mind blowing about it.

 

Just like everyone else lol

 

You are right they banned everything in this state even a freakin sling shot..

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

but that is exactly the point..

 

"AK TYPE" or "m1 CARBINE TYPE"

on paper.. there is no difference...

 

and how would they prove it? what case would they bring? (assuming they felt like it?)

 

they would arrest you.. and charge you.. and then stick you in front of a jury made up of the general public.. and parade your AK variant around the court.. which we all know is an "AK TYPE"

 

a wasr.. saiga... etc. are all "AK TYPE" guns in the same way an M&P15 is an "AR TYPE" gun.. in that it shares an identical operation.. we can pretend that it doesn't.. but on paper.. ALL of the AK type guns are in the same exact boat as M1 carbine type guns.. they are both.. by the literally wording of the AWB.. illegal.. if the "evil feature list" set a precedent than the M1 carbine types would be legal as well.. but we all know the story with that..

 

as a former NJ resident with a love for the AK platform.. this DID concern me at times..

The literal wording of the AWB regarding this was found by a court to be unconstitutionally vague. The court then ordered AG Verniero to define what "substantially identical" means, he stated:

 

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

 

 A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

 

 

1. a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a bayonet mount;
4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
5. a grenade launcher;

 

B. a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
2. a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
3. a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
4. manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
5. a semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and,

C. a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following:

 

1. a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
4. an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

M1 carbine clones shouldn't be banned, I just think no one has challenged AG Dow's ruling on it.

[intercooler 41]

the ones marked ML should be legal...

[njdave 0]

I was always told one of the reasons why the m1 carbines are banned is because of the large amount that where stolen in Plainfield nj from the manufacturer during riots in the late 60s. Idk I wasn't born yet. But it does sound like new jerseys way of handling a problem.

And much like a lot of other people, I was always told Ak types are legal as long as they have the muzzle brake welded, and the bayonet mount removed. At the same time I don't flash mine around. But it sounds like we need a lawyer to sort all this out.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The literal wording of the AWB regarding this was found by a court to be unconstitutionally vague. The court then ordered AG Verniero to define what "substantially identical" means, he stated:

 

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

 

 

 A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

 

 

 

 

• a folding or telescoping stock;
• a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• a bayonet mount;
• a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
• a grenade launcher;

 

 

B. a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

 

• an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
• a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
• a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
• manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
• a semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and,

C. a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following:

 

 

• a folding or telescoping stock;
• a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
• an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

M1 carbine clones shouldn't be banned, I just think no one has challenged AG Dow's ruling on it.

 

But can something be substantially identical to a "type"... It's not saying this single gun is banned... And this other gun is "too similar" it is saying this whole type of gun is banned... I understand your point on paper... But in practice? I question it..