sof 0 Posted October 24, 2014 Starting the upper project and following devils4ever thread and realized that I've never shot an uncompensated 223/556. So, what would you say the recoil is most like? Maybe you could compare it to a .308 bolt action or a 20 gauge shotgun as those are calibers/guns I can relate to. If not name the one they are most like. I will be building or buying a 20" 1:8 twist upper to shoot 100-300 yards with 55-75 grain mostly. No hunting or varmint shooting, just paper and while I may never shoot any competition I'd like to be able to if it gets to me. Not sure if I'll put irons on it or not, most likely I will as I enjoy giving it a go at 100 yds.now with my other 223. The comp is definitely not a necessity, but I tend to think I'd like one as it's not uncommon to shoot 400+ rounds in a day and I don't want recoil making it a chore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JTS1469 0 Posted October 24, 2014 I've shot both comp an uncomped never really noticed much difference. No where near 308 or a shotgun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted October 24, 2014 Unless you put the butt of the rifle on yer jock strap, you won't feel any recoil. Little 9 year old girls are makin' You Tube videos shooting AR's......LOL! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MidwestPX 172 Posted October 24, 2014 Recoil of .223/5.56 is relatively tame even without a brake/comp. You can further tune it by playing with buffer weights, action spring, gas block, or a lightened carrier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sof 0 Posted October 24, 2014 So then, I've read where a comp will harm accuracy and I've read where it will enhance it. Is it just a matter of staying on target or are there other factors? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted October 24, 2014 I've shot both comp an uncomped never really noticed much difference. No where near 308 or a shotgun Same here. I started shooting M16s in 1968 and have fired probably several hundred thousand rounds through M16s, ARs, and M4s. I don't have a comp on any of my ARS and have no interest in putting one on any of them. Most people IMO put on comps for cosmetic not practical reasons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MidwestPX 172 Posted October 24, 2014 Same here. I started shooting M16s in 1968 and have fired probably several hundred thousand rounds through M16s, ARs, and M4s. I don't have a comp on any of my ARS and have no interest in putting one on any of them. Most people IMO put on comps for cosmetic not practical reasons. Some are effective at reducing muzzle climb which is useful for quick follow-up shots which impact competition times (and have tactical applications). Others are purely cosmetic,IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,128 Posted October 24, 2014 In NRA High Power competitions, compensators and brakes are prohibited. In casual practice on the range, they will certainly make you NO friends on the line, either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted October 24, 2014 So then, I've read where a comp will harm accuracy and I've read where it will enhance it. Is it just a matter of staying on target or are there other factors? As a rule comps won't hurt accuracy, but sometimes they can change the harmonics of the barrel in odd way. Don't even worry about it, every competition rifle I know outside DCM uses comps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,128 Posted October 24, 2014 NRA High Power Rifle Rulebook "3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited. An extension tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considered a "muzzle brake." The extension tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4 inch x 1 inch slots cut at 12 and 6 o'clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the installation of sight bases will be allowed. (a) Sound suppressors are not authorized for use in high power competition." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scorpio64 5,119 Posted October 24, 2014 Compared to a 12GA or a 30-06, 5.56 recoil is like a little girl pushing on your shoulder. You don't even have to be manly to handle it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sof 0 Posted October 24, 2014 Am I correct in summarizing by saying that comp or no comp is just a matter of taste assuming proper installation and match to the barrel and you are not doing NRA High Power competition? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sof 0 Posted October 24, 2014 And moving right along here, other than the satisfaction of being able to say you built it yourself, is it worth it to buy the necessary tools such as the action block to do a build when you could spend the money on better components and just buy pre built such as White Oak? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYMetsFan86 9 Posted October 24, 2014 And moving right along here, other than the satisfaction of being able to say you built it yourself, is it worth it to buy the necessary tools such as the action block to do a build when you could spend the money on better components and just buy pre built such as White Oak?To me yes. Because once I built my first, I was hooked and built more in different calibers. I've also lent others my build tools as well as helped family members assemble parts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYMetsFan86 9 Posted October 24, 2014 double post...dang it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
younggun93 5 Posted October 24, 2014 biggest factor ive seen in mitigating recoil is the gas system. My 14.5 in mid-length feels a lot better then my old 16in carbine system Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted October 24, 2014 Am I correct in summarizing by saying that comp or no comp is just a matter of taste assuming proper installation and match to the barrel and you are not doing NRA High Power competition? No. If you ever plan to shoot off-hand and from improvised poistions or you foresee ever having to shoot fast, or you plan to ever try action shooting spots, comps are a VERY good thing to have. If you are only going to shoot from a bench or High Power then yeah, get a plain muzzle. I believe that people who say comps make no difference have never shot a rifle with a good comp. Sure .223 is not punishing to shoot in any form, but comps do make a difference. Heck comps make a difference on .22s. And moving right along here, other than the satisfaction of being able to say you built it yourself, is it worth it to buy the necessary tools such as the action block to do a build when you could spend the money on better components and just buy pre built such as White Oak? Your choice really. Odds are if you shop around for the parts you might come out a bit cheaper even if you buy the tools, but you can also screw it up and destroy a couple of barrel nuts or small parts before you get it all together. I think it is worth building your own. NRA High Power Rifle Rulebook "3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited. An extension tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considered a "muzzle brake." The extension tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4 inch x 1 inch slots cut at 12 and 6 o'clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the installation of sight bases will be allowed. (a) Sound suppressors are not authorized for use in high power competition." That may be, but High Power has long waned in popularity. Lets face it, they also require an internal freefloat on ARs for no apparent reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,256 Posted October 24, 2014 Am I correct in summarizing by saying that comp or no comp is just a matter of taste assuming proper installation and match to the barrel and you are not doing NRA High Power competition? No, there are some things that are not a matter of taste. There are some physics involved that are not really in the hands of the end user at all that one considers with end use, budget, etc. 1) Unless otherwise attached, comps need a threaded barrel. How and when in the manufacturing process this is done matters in terms of what it does to the barrel. For most barrels out there, they are cut as a last step, and this can result choking the bore down a bit where the threads are cut. This can negatively impact accuracy. Some barrel makers get around this by cutting to something bigger than 1/2-28 but the universally easy thing to do is just not have threads. 2) Putting a comp on the end means you slapped a weight on there. Which affects barrel harmonics. This can help, or it can hurt. There's ways around it, but I haven't seen any of them implemented on the AR platform. The Tubb ar-ish bolt action space guns, but not an AR. If you are shooting off a bench, doing the whole breath control bit per NRA rifle shootin' instructions and wind up taking a shot every 5 seconds or less, a comp is useless and can only really hurt your performance or at best remain neutral. If you are going to be shooting fast, shooting from funky positions, etc. Then a comp has benefits, a well designed comp especially so. IMO, felt recoil really isn't one of those things that come into the equation. A rifle built for accuracy will be heavier than one built for run and gun more often than not which mitigates felt recoil, and .223/5.56 doesn't really have a lot of recoil to begin with. Outside of that, IMO if it is threaded, put a comp on it. If you want max accuracy, get a non threaded bull barrel. It's less a matter of taste than of specialization. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,128 Posted October 24, 2014 ...That may be, but High Power has long waned in popularity. Lets face it, they also require an internal freefloat on ARs for no apparent reason. The reason High Power shooters have rifles with free-floated barrels is to eliminate the bending stress on the barrel when the shooter is slung-up in position (3 of the 4 stages, everything except Offhand (unsupported standing)) The front sling attachment is on the free-float and not on the front sight base as in standard issue AR15s The free float is attached to the upper receiver at the barrel nut, not on the barrel. Sling up tight with a standard issue AR and you will be bending the barrel, adversely affecting your point of impact, moreso with a small contour barrel as compared to an HBAR or bull barrel. As far as waning in popularity, yes, this is no longer the "Golden Age" which followed WWII and Korea, but there are still quite a few of us. As the TV commercial used to say "Try it! You'll like it!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sof 0 Posted October 24, 2014 A fair amount to think over here, and as usual both points of view are well stated. I am leaning toward no comp now as I have a 16" that I use a red dot or co-witnessed BUIS, and that would mean that this set up will probably stay scoped for the most part. Can a 6-18 scope be used co-witnessed? I imagine you'd never get the front sight to be more than a smudge. Thanks for all the good advice and as soon as I get going, like next week, I'll be looking for opinions on specific parts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,256 Posted October 24, 2014 The reason High Power shooters have rifles with free-floated barrels is to eliminate the bending stress on the barrel when the shooter is slung-up in position (3 of the 4 stages, everything except Offhand (unsupported standing)) The front sling attachment is on the free-float and not on the front sight base as in standard issue AR15s The free float is attached to the upper receiver at the barrel nut, not on the barrel. Sling up tight with a standard issue AR and you will be bending the barrel, adversely affecting your point of impact, moreso with a small contour barrel as compared to an HBAR or bull barrel. As far as waning in popularity, yes, this is no longer the "Golden Age" which followed WWII and Korea, but there are still quite a few of us. As the TV commercial used to say "Try it! You'll like it!" He wans't wondering why they have free float tubes, he was wondering why they require it to be internal. Yeah, years ago, it had to "look like" something that was issued. They didn't really, and now you have stuff being fielded with rail systems. So there's this weird sort of make believe going on there that doesn't make much sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,128 Posted October 24, 2014 The "has to look like as-issued" requirement you refer to is for "Service Rifle" class within NRA matches and for all CMP matches. Myself, I shoot Match Rifle, also known as a "Space Gun" It doesn't look anything like the as-issued M16 everyone is familiar with. But it operates exactly the same way and uses the same ammo and internal parts (semi-auto only.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gleninjersey 2,134 Posted November 3, 2014 Build it! Only reason I put a brake on mine is b/c it's the law (14.5 in barrel). If I were building a longer range shooter I would concentrate on a higher quality barrel. Where are we going to be shooting 300 yards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,128 Posted November 3, 2014 ...Where are we going to be shooting 300 yards? You're all coming to the Frozen Nutz matches at South Jersey Shooting Club, right?? SOUTH JERSEY SHOOTING CLUB 840 Piney Hollow Rd, Hammonton NJ 08037 300 YARD PRONE MATCHES 2014-2015 Come on out and try your hand at shooting 300 yards prone. I will be holding five (5) 300 yard “Frozen Nutz” Prone Matches this year. The dates are: NOV 16, DEC 21, JAN 18, FEB 15 and MAR 15. There will be two separate classes: Scoped and Iron Sights, with a caliber limit of 8mm/.323 The matches will consist of 3 separate stages of 22 rounds in 22 minutes (the first match may have a 5-min sighter period at the match director’s discretion. Please try to have some kind of 300yd zero before the match) slow fire single round feed from the prone position. Your score will be the best 20 of 22 shots, allowing for 2 sighters per match. BRING ENOUGH AMMO! The scoped rifles may be supported by a front rest / bipod or off hand, sling and shooter’s shoulder and will be fired on the MR-63F target. The iron sight rifles may only be supported by the off hand, sling and shooter’s shoulder and will be fired on the MR-63 target. Entry fee is $10.00 per shooter. Sign-in starts at 8AM. Shooting starts at 9AM SHARP. The matches will only be cancelled due to heavy snow the day before the match. The match will be shot in all other weather, as we are inside the shooting house. THIS IS A FUN MATCH ONLY, not NRA or any other org approved. High scores from 4 of the 5 matches will be used to determine Champion. Any questions, shoot me an email at [email protected] SHAYNE SIMCOX, HIGH POWER RIFLE MATCH DIRECTOR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,256 Posted November 3, 2014 The "has to look like as-issued" requirement you refer to is for "Service Rifle" class within NRA matches and for all CMP matches. Myself, I shoot Match Rifle, also known as a "Space Gun" It doesn't look anything like the as-issued M16 everyone is familiar with. But it operates exactly the same way and uses the same ammo and internal parts (semi-auto only.) Well the issue was why the limitation to internal float tubes. Doesn't really apply to space gun now does it? Hence not talking about space guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
louu 399 Posted November 3, 2014 I'm just going to leave these pictures here and say that 600 yards is no problem. Neither is muzzle rise, recoil or scaring the guy shooting next to you because they do not exist. White Oak Armament Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sof 0 Posted November 4, 2014 Well, after extensive consultation with T Bill and Pete of ar15sales in NH, I went with no comp on a stainless rock river arms 18" match barrel! It's the RRA ATH model. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gleninjersey 2,134 Posted November 4, 2014 What's that? A complete rifle, barrel only or complete upper? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites