NJ Law Re: Justifiable Need Expires Nov. 13th

[maintenanceguy 510]

Posted a little while ago at the NJ2AS website:

 

The law requiring "Justifiable Need" to qualify for a carry permit is about to expire in NJ. In fact, all codes concerning firearms are about to expire in NJ.

 

"In accordance with N.J.S.A. 52:14B-5.1b, Chapter 54, Firearms and Weapons, expires on November 13, 2014. See: 43 N.J.R. 1203(a)."

 

There are two parts to NJ's laws: The legislature passes "statutes" and the various departments of the government write "codes". For some reason, codes that were never passed by the legislature are still treated as laws. These codes expire every 7 years and need to be re-adopted. It's one of these codes that defines "justifiable need" and makes it impossible for us to get permits. This code expires Nov 13th.

 

The NJSP is required to post a notice that they will be re-adopting this code in the NJ Register at least 30 days before the expiration. I've searched the last several issues of the NJ Register and I can't find it. There is typically a 30 day comment period. I want to comment. I think thousands of us should comment before this is adopted - if for no other reason than to have it enshrined in the NJ Register that thousands of people commented against re-adoption. But I can't find the notice.

 

Somebody here understands this better than I do and can point the rest of us to the notice or let us know how we file our comments.

 

 

[NYMetsFan86 9]

 

if that actually goes down it would be amazing

[ogfarmer 138]

was posted by a person on Nj2AS FB page not NJ2AS website

[PK90 3,570]

This comes up every few years. It will be renewed.

[revenger 473]

Had our "republican" governor appointed a republican as his first AG rather than Paula Dow ultra liberal democrat,  many of these codes would have gone away.    How and why the republican party still supports this guy is beyond me. 

[maintenanceguy 510]

This comes up every few years. It will be renewed.

 

Of course it will.  At least we can get it re adopted with our official protests and valid legal arguments and the NJAG's unconstitutional responses as part of the legal record.  

 

Who knows, maybe forcing NJ to make it's legal position "official" might help in court someday if we can point to that and show unconstitutionality.

[RUTGERS95 890]

How can a code be adopted as law

[SJG 253]

Even if the code is not renewed, it does not negate the case law which interpreted the statute, case law is also law, but it would afford a basis for further challenge.

[Wolfy 51]

The "Justifiable Need" has been on the books since the 1790's. I highly doubt they will let it expire.

 

Don't get your hopes up.

 

 

Who is John Galt?

I am so excited I figured out how to change my signature.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

How can a code be adopted as law

 

"Regulation," to be more precise.   Statutory law provides for various State agencies, etc. to issue "rules and regulations" and impose penalties for violating them, similar to statutes. They have the same practical effect of a "statute," (perhaps with less severe penalties)...they just weren't formally adopted as one by the legislature and/or signed into law by the gov.

 

Where the NJSA is the body of all "Statutes" and Statutory law in NJ, the NJAC is the body of rules and regulations.  To analogize, in the Federal govt, the USC (United States Code) is the body of all Federal Law (Statutes), and the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is the regulatory body.

[GlastonburyNative 0]

"Regulation," to be more precise.   Statutory law provides for various State agencies, etc. to issue "rules and regulations" and impose penalties for violating them, similar to statutes. They have the same practical effect of a "statute," (perhaps with less severe penalties)...they just weren't formally adopted as one by the legislature and/or signed into law by the gov.

 

Where the NJSA is the body of all "Statutes" and Statutory law in NJ, the NJAC is the body of rules and regulations.  To analogize, in the Federal govt, the USC (United States Code) is the body of all Federal Law (Statutes), and the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is the regulatory body.

 

I thought it was administrative law which allows state agencies to issue said rules and regulations?

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I thought it was administrative law which allows state agencies to issue said rules and regulations?

 

Said administrative "law" having its foundation/authority within the NJ Statutes.... (NJSA 52:14 F et. seq.).... 

[Guest]

Had our "republican" governor appointed a republican as his first AG rather than Paula Dow ultra liberal democrat,  many of these codes would have gone away.    How and why the republican party still supports this guy is beyond me. 

 

 

He is the lesser of two evils. Who else are you going to vote for, any of the dems?

[67gtonut 847]

Discuss the law.....

 

Politics will get this thread moved to 1A area.... 

[Midwest 28]

In doing my research on the history of  gun control, I found there are two laws from the 1920's which address Concealed Carry, Justifiable Need and Open Carry in New Jersey.

 

 

The law for carrying a handgun concealed went in effect May 11 1924

 

However looking into to this further, it would appear that this applies to carrying concealed. And the reason why I say that, is because there was another law on April 3 1928 which seems to imply that carrying a pistol for hunting or target practice was OK.

Meaning that it would seem that open carrying was OK until April 3 1928 when open carry was OK under limited conditions.

 

 

Summary:

So this means BEFORE May 11 1924 You could carry concealed, after that date you needed a permit.

And BEFORE April 3 1928 You could open carry , after that date you needed a permit unless you carrying it for hunting or target practice.

 

Justifiable Need

 

Now what is justifiable need for a concealed carry permit May 11 1924? We have the answer and I will highlight the justifiable need portions.

 

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bin/diglib.cgi?collect=njleg&file=148&page=0305&zoom=90

"If such application is approved by the chief of police or the sheriff, as the case may be, the applicant shall then present such application, so approved as aforesaid, to the Justice of the Supreme Court holding the circuit for the county in which the applicant is resident, who after investigation, and being satisfied of the sufficiency of the application, and of the need of such person carrying concealed upon his person, a revolver, pistol or other firearm shall issue a permit therefor.

A permit so issued pursuant to the provisions of this act is sufficient authority for the holder thereof to carry concealed upon his person a revolver, pistol or other firearm in all parts of the State Of New Jersey."

 

So this needs based carry (concealed) dates back to 1924.

 

 

 

Limited Open Carry April 3 1928

 

Now what about April 3 1928? There was another law which restricts open carrying.

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bin/diglib.cgi?collect=njleg&file=152&page=0384&zoom=90

"No person shall, without a license therefor issued as provided in the statute referred in the preceding section carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except in his dwelling house or place of business or on land possessed by him"


(After this is gives a long list of exceptions for law enforcement, military, SPCA (animal rights officer), guards, railway express, National Guard and so on.... Then we get to the civilian exemptions.)

"Nothing contained herein shall prevent any person keeping or carrying about his or her place of business, dwelling house or premises, any such revolver, pistol, firearm or other weapon, or from carrying from any place of purchase to his or her dwelling house or place of business,  from his or her dwelling house or place of business to any place where repairing is being done to have the same repaired and returned, or to carry a gun, rifle or knife in the woods or fields or waters of the State for the purpose of hunting or target practice. Whenever the words "pistol" or "revolver" are used in this act such words shall include a shotgun, rifle or other firearm with over-all length less than twenty-six inches. This act shall take effect immediately. Approved April 3 1928."

 

 

I have read accounts on here and other forums that open carry was allowed in rural areas in NJ as late as the 1950's and 1960's until the Firearms ID Card law in 1966. Therefore it would seem that from April 3 1928 until 1966, a limited open carry was permitted in New Jersey.  By the way, the Rutgers law library is great resource for looking up these old firearm laws.

[Guest]

Good research on the history of NJ gun laws.

 

But how does that help us today???

[JohnnyB 4,324]

It helps us by informing us that NJ has sucked for a very long time!  It further informs us that there is VERY little hope for change

from within the PRNJ. The only hope is a Federal ruling that will negate NJ state law regarding our 2A rights!!!

But, and this is a Big but.....That does not mean we should EVER stop trying to change things here!!!!!!!!!!

[melrose 0]

It helps us by informing us that NJ has sucked for a very long time!  It further informs us that there is VERY little hope for change

from within the PRNJ. The only hope is a Federal ruling that will negate NJ state law regarding our 2A rights!!!

But, and this is a Big but.....That does not mean we should EVER stop trying to change things here!!!!!!!!!!

 

Right! Get out and vote on Tuesday!!

[Midwest 28]

I don't know where the 7 year renewal comes from. It wasn't in the original legislation in the 1920's. If someone knows the year, they can look it up at The Rutgers Online Law Library and find when it started. If someone has the resources for old newspapers archives they can research the news articles of the day and find out the reason for the legislation and who was in opposition to it.

 

By the way the legislation for the FID card mess in 1966 started earlier, with Arthur Sills (Attorney General of NJ) being the main architect. He testified in the infamous "Dodd Gun Control Hearings" in 1965. There is a pdf record of Sills mentioning the FID proposal in during his testimony.  Here is a thread on it  http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-756346.html

 

 

Good research on the history of NJ gun laws.

 

But how does that help us today???

 

 

All of these gun laws passed in New Jersey for several reasons, political and other. But the main two reasons are....

 

# 1. New Jersey does NOT have the Second Amendment in it's state constitution. http://conservativenewjersey.com/handguns-banned-in-new-jersey

 

"Delegates to the 1947 New Jersey Constitutional Convention believed that the right of the people to keep and bear arms was so obvious and universally accepted that they did not include it the wording in our state Constitution - a presumptive error of epic proportions."

 

# 2. The other reason is because until fairly recently, the Supreme Court was bound by United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 (Supreme Court, 1876) and it was ruled that the Second Amendment didn't apply to the states. 

 

However later it was ruled in McDonald v. Chicago that the Second Amendment applied to the states in 2010

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=756407 (Read Posts # 1 and #3) .

 

 

"At that time, the controlling federal precedent was United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 (Supreme Court, 1876). The Court in Cruikshank held, among other things, that the Second Amendment did not apply to the States. That was, at the time, consistent with the ruling in Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U. S. (7 Pet.) 243 (Supreme Court, 1833) to the effect that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States. A New Jersey state court was bound by those United States Supreme Court rulings on the federal question.

It wasn't until later that SCOTUS began to apply, through the Fourteenth Amendment, the rights enumerated in the Bill of Right piecemeal to the States. And it wasn't until McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U. S. 742 (Supreme Court, 2010) that the rights described by the Second Amendment were applied to the States."

 

So now that it was ruled that the Second Amendment DOES apply to the States...(including New Jersey,  it still is a State...right?) Then all these anti-gun laws from long ago needs to be revisited as they were originally based on United States v. Cruikshank and not McDonald v. Chicago.

 

But since McDonald v. Chicago is now in play, that should give cause and legal standing to bring New Jersey's gun laws in line with the rest of the states.

 

How that could be accomplished?

 

I would ask Evan Nappan or some other legal expert to look into this. But there is your crack in the wall, a weak spot in New Jersey's gun laws.

 

 

 

"Mr. Christie, Tear Down this Wall!"

 

'if you seek peace the National Spotlight, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and eastern Europe to be the leader of the free world, if you seek liberalization the Presidency, come here to this gate and change NJ gun laws. Mr. Gorbachev Mr. Christie, open this gate prove to the people that you are conservative and believe in the second amendment. Mr. Gorbachev Mr. Christie , tear down  this wall!  New Jersey's anti-gun laws! '

 

.

[raz-0 1,259]

How can a code be adopted as law

 

 

It's not the law. It is the guidelines under which you will be arrested, charged, and prosecuted. The judge will work off the statutes. But if you view the time, cost, and trouble of those steps, yes, it results in your punishment. 

[SJG 253]

has it been renewed yet?

[ryan_j 0]

Does it matter? If it's not renewed can we all go apply and get approved? I'm thinking NO.

[Guest]

On FOX news this morning, they mentioned the "justifiable need" is being challenged in DC

[JohnnyB 4,324]

As of today the 9th Circuit ruled NO justifiable need in CA  Now how about us in the PRNJ???

 

Law-abiding Californians may not need to justify their need to carry concealed weapons, after the same three-judge panel that struck down restrictions on the permits earlier this year ruled Wednesday that it is too late for new opponents to join the fight against the ruling.  

The decision by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals would bar other law enforcement officials, including state Attorney General Kamala Harris, from appealing its ruling in a case originally brought by an independent journalist who sued the San Diego County Sheriff’s Department over its policy of requiring a specific reason for being allowed to carry a concealed weapon in public.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/72096-whats-up-with-peruta/?hl=peruta

[ryan_j 0]

As of today the 9th Circuit ruled NO justifiable need in CA  Now how about us in the PRNJ???

 

Law-abiding Californians may not need to justify their need to carry concealed weapons, after the same three-judge panel that struck down restrictions on the permits earlier this year ruled Wednesday that it is too late for new opponents to join the fight against the ruling.  

The decision by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals would bar other law enforcement officials, including state Attorney General Kamala Harris, from appealing its ruling in a case originally brought by an independent journalist who sued the San Diego County Sheriff’s Department over its policy of requiring a specific reason for being allowed to carry a concealed weapon in public.

 

 

Peruta does not apply here. We have the 3rd circuit decision in Drake v Jerejian binding here which says justifiable need is a "long standing, presumptively lawful measure."

 

That said, we should apply for carry permits and attach a copy of the peruta decision. Let's see what the superior court judge says...

[dman2112 6]

Waste of time. This state is too hoplophobic and corrupt to follow a law without an agenda

[NYMetsFan86 9]

so nothing changes even though it expires? Can't keep up with you guys

[Self007 0]

Yea NJ sucks here I am a Constable for NJ and I am being tried in court for carrying my weapon without a carry permit. Let alone it is legally registered to me. Some times I feel like :roulette:cause of all the stuff im going threw.