14.5" Barrels NFA or Not?

[Scorpio64 5,154]

My next build will be an M4 type carbine.  I want to put a 14.5" BBL on it with a Levang linear comp.  It is my understanding that the 14.5" barrel with a "permanently attached" muzzle device, bringing the overall length of the barrel just over 16 inches, is not subject to NFA regulation.

 

So the question is, can I order a 14.5" BBL and have it shipped to my house or does it need to have the comp already installed before it can be shipped  to me?  Technically the barrel is an NFA item but once the comp is installed it is no longer NFA, so there is that period of "limbo" I'm concerned about. 

[Vlad G 345]

Realistically, it isn't a rifle until it is assembled, so everyone and their mother will ship you the barrel. I suspect if the ATF wanted to get you specifically they could make an argument but in practice LOTS of people buy 14.5 barrels, get them built and pinned in a reasonably short time and now one seems to care.

[JT Custom Guns 957]

There is the "Components to build" stipulation so if you have all the parts to assemble

the rifler in you possession than there can be an issue! will there be - ???

 

Also if it's a 14.5" barrel, when you have the muzzle device attached and pinned - it must

be welded by federal regulations. A 16" barrel only needs to be pinned (welding is not required)  

[Scorpio64 5,154]

There is the "Components to build" stipulation so if you have all the parts to assemble

the rifler in you possession than there can be an issue! will there be - ???

 

Also if it's a 14.5" barrel, when you have the muzzle device attached and pinned - it must

be welded by federal regulations. A 16" barrel only needs to be pinned (welding is not required)  

 

Right, the device must be welded to the barrel, where the two meet, with a bead around the perimeter at least 3/4 the way around.  In essence, doing this makes the device part of the barrel instead of attached to the barrel.

[Vlad G 345]

Per ATF NFA handbook: https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

 

Under section 2.1.3 Rifle:

 

 

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost

end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

[AverageJoe 95]

"measure from closed bolt" ...since its not together there is no closed bolt to measure from lol. I have my spikes 14.5 awaiting other parts, its fine.

[n4p226r 105]

Per ATF NFA handbook: https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

 

Under section 2.1.3 Rifle:

 "or blind pinning with the pin head welded over" 

 

essentially how every barrel gets pinned in NJ correct?

[Vlad G 345]

That's how I read it, but I am not a lawyer, FFL, gun manufacturer, etc.

 

Personally I like belts and suspenders when it comes to avoiding federal crimes, so I'd say do TWO of the methods at the same time. Silver solder is fairly easy to do, combine that with a pin and weld and that should be on for good.

[silverado427 10,716]

So if i'm purchasing a 14.5" upper  The muzzle brake  has to be pinned and welded to be compliant . And the welded part i'm talking about is the blind pin being welded. am i correct in thinking this way. ???

[Vlad G 345]

Or you can have someone else do it, and sell it to you done already. A few extra bucks may be a nice piece of mind when you can say you bought it not made it

[RUTGERS95 890]

so 16" only needs pinning but 14.5 must have both....thanks for the clarification on that, I always wondered why they were not the same?

[Lalo 13]

Why are people saying that 14.5" barrels need to be made permanent using two methods? Pin and weld should be all you need, no?

 

 

or blind pinning with the pin head welded over

[Scorpio64 5,154]

So if i'm purchasing a 14.5" upper  The muzzle brake  has to be pinned and welded to be compliant . And the welded part i'm talking about is the blind pin being welded. am i correct in thinking this way. ???

The way I read the regulation....  16" BBL = Pin and blind weld, or solder or weld the device to the BBL 3/4 the way around.  14.5" BBL = Just weld the device to the BBL 3/4 the way around.  On a 16" or better BBL most opt for the least expensive easy way which is blind pin.  This method also happens to be, more or less, reversible. All of the methods are reversible to an extent, and the extent being access to a machine shop or lots of money to have the work done.

 

Though I have no choice in the matter, I do not like the fact that welding the device to the BBL will change things.  It will alter  harmonics, sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much.  If the harmonics get whacky or the heat from welding creates tension it will F accuracy.    Once that sucker is on there, there's no practical way of going back.  May as well start over with a new BBL.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

Why are people saying that 14.5" barrels need to be made permanent using two methods? Pin and weld should be all you need, no?

No.

 

To make a 14.5" BBL meet the NON NFA standards the device must become part of the barrel and the only way to do that is to weld the seam as described.  I'm sure many folks have 14.5" BBLs with pinned devices that came from the retailer that way and have no problems but if the issue was ever forced, I believe it would be determined that they do not meet the federal standard for compliance.

[Vlad G 345]

No.

 

To make a 14.5" BBL meet the NON NFA standards the device must become part of the barrel and the only way to do that is to weld the seam as described.  I'm sure many folks have 14.5" BBLs with pinned devices that came from the retailer that way and have no problems but if the issue was ever forced, I believe it would be determined that they do not meet the federal standard for compliance.

 

 

Where do you get that from. Read the ATF document again. It explicitly lists pin with weld over the pin as an acceptable method. 

[Lalo 13]

Gotcha, it's the way "you" interpreted the regulation.

 

I'm good. Thanks!

[Scorpio64 5,154]

As much as I hate to admit this, I think I'm incorrect about the seam welding requirement.  I could swear that I read that last year when I was looking into compliance.  So after looking at the ATF site I will go along and agree that fusion seam welding, silver solder or blind pin are all legitimate methods as long as the length from breech to the exit of the device is 16" or greater. .  Still, I have this nagging voice telling me that seam welding is a requirement for barrels under 16".

[raz-0 1,259]

As much as I hate to admit this, I think I'm incorrect about the seam welding requirement.  I could swear that I read that last year when I was looking into compliance.  So after looking at the ATF site I will go along and agree that fusion seam welding, silver solder or blind pin are all legitimate methods as long as the length from breech to the exit of the device is 16" or greater. .  Still, I have this nagging voice telling me that seam welding is a requirement for barrels under 16".

 

That's just you wanting to not be wrong. There are manufacturers who get audited regularly that do not use the seam welding method, but one of the other two approved methods. Heck, other methods were used as well during the 94 AWB, they are just out of the reach of folks like you and I and many small manufacturers. 

[carl_g 568]

I bought a spike's 14.5 complete upper and the brake is blind pinned and spot welded over the pin.

[JT Custom Guns 957]

The law on pinning / welding barrels & brakes in NJ is a vague as all the others but 

according to NJ State Police (take it for what it's worth to you) NJ accepts a Blind pinning

of the barrel as acceptable with no welding required.

 

The ATF requires the pins to be welded over (along with other acceptable methods mentioned earlier)

on any barrels shorter than 16" before the muzzle devise, extension, ect. is installed.

 

Because of the ATF regulations on SBR's many NJ FFL's (and gun owners) believe that standard

16" barrels need to be pinned and welded as well, but it is simply not true. You can get it done if it

helps you sleep better, but it is not a requirement in NJ.......

[silverado427 10,716]

 

The ATF requires the pins to be welded over on any barrels shorter than 16" before the muzzle devise, extension, ect. is installed.

 

 

So a pinned and welded muzzle device  would meet the atf requirements.  whats with the quote  along with other acceptable methods. If P/W meets the requirements , why would you silver solder or weld the muzzle device directly  to the barrel. ???  

[JT Custom Guns 957]

I didn't say you had to do all the methods - Pinning & welding is just one of the approved methods.

You can choose whichever one you want to perform.........

[Vlad G 345]

Slight thread drift, if you don't weld over the pin, what keeps it from just working itself out?

[JT Custom Guns 957]

When we pin barrels, we use a spl pin that is pressed in - they don't come out!

[Vlad G 345]

Sorry, what is an "spl pin"?

[silverado427 10,716]

I didn't say you had to do all the methods - Pinning & welding is just one of the approved methods.

You can choose whichever one you want to perform.........

OK

[JT Custom Guns 957]

Sorry, what is an "spl pin"?

"spl" Special, hand made each time to fit the size & contour of each application

[Vlad G 345]

Ah. Interesting. I would imagine with comps getting hot and expanding and contracting eventually the pin would work loose, but I guess not. 

[raz-0 1,259]

So a pinned and welded muzzle device  would meet the atf requirements.  whats with the quote  along with other acceptable methods. If P/W meets the requirements , why would you silver solder or weld the muzzle device directly  to the barrel. ???  

 

Why? Usually ease or volume. 

 

If you are a DIY type, you can get the right kind of silvver solder in paste form, and then you just need a mapp gas torch and no concern about overheating the barrel. It's cheaper than a welder. 

 

If you are a business, silver solder paste and a magnetic induction heater give you speed and control, and no machine steps. Seam welding is similar in that it can be largely automated, but the investment cost is higher for a largely automated machine. During the 94 AWB, some businesses did a pin, and covered it over with a bigger pin that was press fit somehow and then machined down to flush. You weren't getting it off without cutting off the muzzle device.