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This^^

 

The TDP doesn't just specify dimensions and tolerances, it also specifies manufacturing processes, testing protocols and materials used.

 

While the TDP is certainly not the end all be all of the AR world, companies that meet or exceed the TDP certainly produce more reliable product/parts than companies that skimp or take shortcuts in my experience.

 

For a long time Colt was all there was in the quality AR market. Now with Noveske, Knights, LMT, BCM, Daniel Defense and a few others there are many more quality options to choose from that meet or surpass the TDP.

 

 

DD makes a great product. A little expensive and I have seen a few of their by carriers shit the bed, but on the whole, they are quality.

 

LWRC also makes a good product from what I have seen. I have taken a few classes with shooters running them and have met their head Armorer. Quality product, no corners cut - but still

have piston issues, I have seen a few disintegrate on the line.

 

LWRC and HK are the only companies I would buy from if I was in the market for a piston gun.... Which I'm not - just so we are clear :rofl:

 

DPMS I avoid at all costs. Allegedly the .308 rifles are GTG but I have no experience with them.

 

 

its funny you say that.  I've heard nothing but GREAT things about the DPMS 308 guns.  which is a huge difference than what most people seem to report on their 5.56 line.  doesn't colt own LWRC now?  LMT is the real sleeper of the bunch.  their small parts are probably the only lower parts kit that i think rival (possibly exceed) the colt parts

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The TDP doesn't just specify dimensions and tolerances, it also specifies manufacturing processes, testing protocols and materials used.

 

 

Sort of. We don't actually know what is specifies, because it is double probation secret squirrel hidden magic. There are actually GOA enforced requirements for testing and standards and materials. For example the MPI procedure, the straightness of the barrel, etc, etc are all in the public spec, as are the materials used.

 

Colt and FN might say "yes yes but we have MAGIC BEANS that let us test better for those things", but lookit, the thing leaked, and everyone who wants a copy can have a copy by just asking around the industry while making some special masonic hand signal. Hell "leaked" is the wrong word, the government handed out to a lot of people my mistake and then asked for it back.  That's like the feds handing over the secret sauce recipe to BK, Wendy's and Five Guys (and really every major burger joint) and then asking for it back as if  it hasn't been copied, xeroxed, telexed to third world countries, and furtively written on the palm of every employee that dreams to own day open his own "Clyde's House of Evil Rifles Tasty burgers ". 

 

I guess what I'm saying there is nothing wrong with buying Colts or BigMac's if you want the real authentic secret sauce, but lets not place that recipe on some plinth as the one and only way to make a righteous burger, There is nothing really magical about it that it is worth worrying about.

 

Personally I'm more interested in a company's desire to make a quality product, because everything follows from there. And McD's makes some really shitty burgers, even if the ISO9000 certify how to turn pork rectums into "burgers".  Similarly, I've seen much better made ARs then the Colt's 6920, specially if you consider that there is no proof that Colt actually uses the secret sauce when they make it. In fact if I was pedantic about it, I'd say the absolutely can't follow their own gradma's secret cookie spice combo because it of how far the thumb thingamajig rotates. 

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I've seen better than a 6920 as well. But let's put the pieces of the recipe that we do know together. We know the bolt material. Bolt carrier material. Full auto. Properly stakes gas key. HPI and MPT. We know the front sight should be straight. The front sight pinned. The castle nut staked. Ignoring things like the lower parts kit, who makes a rifle with those things correct for under $900. With a rear sight

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Primary Arms has a complete upper. 12 inch free float rail. M16 BCG. $339. Smack that on a $99 lower and go nuts. Then over time you can see what you want to change. Just can't see why you would "invest" a grand when you're not sure really what you want.

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Ignoring things like the lower parts kit, who makes a rifle with those things correct for under $900. With a rear sight

 

it is a fair question and a bit harder to answer. Part of the problem is that not everyone lists "properly staked castle nut" in their feature list or how straight their front sight is, right?

 

But I'm going to take  wild stab at interneting and see what I can find. Note this would be somewhat of a guess, if I was buying one I'd do more research and make some calls to the manufacturer to clear up questions not answered on the web sites. Also note some don't have rear sights, buy one.

 

But basically a LOT of people make an M4 clone that looks to be about right, just at $1000 or under

 

Armalite Def15F $699

M&P15 is just about $1000 with a rear sight, and I don't mean the sport

BCM sells one for about $1000 (Buds carries it)

FN's new M4 lookalike is just about $1000 with the carry handle sight

LMT's SPM16 can be found on sale under $1000 (sometimes under 900)

RRA LAR-15 it's also under $900

Spikes ST-15 LE Carbine

Stag Model 1

Windham's M4 clone

 

And I could go on, because almost everyone makes a M4 clone with chrome lined barrel, MPI'ed 158 bolts, etc, etc and they all are fighting for the $800-$1000 market. Sure we can argue about which kind of staking they used on key, or if the castle nut is staked enough, but my point is that there are a lot of guns out there that meet (or at least claim to meet) the same standards.

 

Based on my experiences I would rather have a RRA, LMT or FN then a colt. But that's me, and if I'm honest I wouldn't buy any of those because to me the M4 clones are kinda stupid at this point. We can do better for the same money.

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Get an LWRC and call it a day. 

+1 billion

 

 

I think before anyone says one brand is 'much better' than the next, I'd like for people to consider the price.  You can build for 500, buy for under 600 and spending nearly double for 'much better' is subjective. 

 

I don't think you'll find a better budget AR than the S&W., expecially when you consider it's days will mostly be range days and plinking.  You can buy that rifle, an optic and ammo for the price of a Colt and you are not really getting anything 'much better' for a range a toy

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This^^

 

The TDP doesn't just specify dimensions and tolerances, it also specifies manufacturing processes, testing protocols and materials used.

 

While the TDP is certainly not the end all be all of the AR world, companies that meet or exceed the TDP certainly produce more reliable product/parts than companies that skimp or take shortcuts in my experience.

 

For a long time Colt was all there was in the quality AR market. Now with Noveske, Knights, LMT, BCM, Daniel Defense and a few others there are many more quality options to choose from that meet or surpass the TDP.

 

 

DD makes a great product. A little expensive and I have seen a few of their by carriers shit the bed, but on the whole, they are quality.

 

LWRC also makes a good product from what I have seen. I have taken a few classes with shooters running them and have met their head Armorer. Quality product, no corners cut - but still

have piston issues, I have seen a few disintegrate on the line.

 

LWRC and HK are the only companies I would buy from if I was in the market for a piston gun.... Which I'm not - just so we are clear :rofl:

 

DPMS I avoid at all costs. Allegedly the .308 rifles are GTG but I have no experience with them.

Every company has issues at times, 2 years ago Colt bolts were breaking at 500 rounds and mil issued TRM on Colt ...

 

LWRC did replace the piston cup which was the only weak point in the design, they not only passed the SEAL OTB test (only 2 rifles ever did this) but have one at 100k rounds test model that is validating why they cost so much....

 

HK is HK, nuff said but, they too have had issues and well documented ones at that

 

DPMS gets a lot of hate and had a rough patch for sure but don't know anyone that has one that isn't satisfied and likes the accuracy.  Their .308s are lasers

 

DD is a great company and markets the product smartly. 

 

for LPK, I only use WOA, Colt, or LWRC....I favor WOA however

 

people forget that TDP and mil spec serve baseline purposes, BASELINE....that baseline is exceeded by lmt, dd, kac, lwrc (companies whose products have actually seen mil service).

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it is a fair question and a bit harder to answer. Part of the problem is that not everyone lists "properly staked castle nut" in their feature list or how straight their front sight is, right?

 

But I'm going to take  wild stab at interneting and see what I can find. Note this would be somewhat of a guess, if I was buying one I'd do more research and make some calls to the manufacturer to clear up questions not answered on the web sites. Also note some don't have rear sights, buy one.

 

But basically a LOT of people make an M4 clone that looks to be about right, just at $1000 or under

 

Armalite Def15F $699

M&P15 is just about $1000 with a rear sight, and I don't mean the sport

BCM sells one for about $1000 (Buds carries it)

FN's new M4 lookalike is just about $1000 with the carry handle sight

LMT's SPM16 can be found on sale under $1000 (sometimes under 900)

RRA LAR-15 it's also under $900

Spikes ST-15 LE Carbine

Stag Model 1

Windham's M4 clone

 

And I could go on, because almost everyone makes a M4 clone with chrome lined barrel, MPI'ed 158 bolts, etc, etc and they all are fighting for the $800-$1000 market. Sure we can argue about which kind of staking they used on key, or if the castle nut is staked enough, but my point is that there are a lot of guns out there that meet (or at least claim to meet) the same standards.

 

Based on my experiences I would rather have a RRA, LMT or FN then a colt. But that's me, and if I'm honest I wouldn't buy any of those because to me the M4 clones are kinda stupid at this point. We can do better for the same money.

 

all good rifles but as far as i know most of those will come with a semi-auto BCG.  at least i am pretty sure the LMT, armalite, and M&P will.  RRA charges extra for a chrome lined BCG when you order from their website, so its unknown what it will be if you see it in the store.  i've never seen a spikes or stag besides homebuilt ones so i can't comment on them.    The windham, RRA, and armalite won't have the castle nut staked from what i've seen.  it doesn't mean any of those are bad guns, I'm just trying to say, they cut more corners than Colt does to hit that $900 mark with sights.  From my experience, a LMT is generally nicer than a colt, and if i only had one gun, i'd probably choose that over a colt too.  BCM at $1k is hard to find, but if you say they are, i'd probably take them too.  there is a huge thread on m4carbine comparing the FN to the colt and its pretty apparent that FN dropped the ball on those.  i don't want to come across as a colt fanboy, as I'm not.  and you listed a lot of high quality stuff there.  but you always see people saying "why get a colt when you can get a del ton kit or a PSA kit on a anderson lower for like $500 out the door"  thats where you can really see the colt different.

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for LPK, I only use WOA, Colt, or LWRC....I favor WOA however

 

people forget that TDP and mil spec serve baseline purposes, BASELINE....that baseline is exceeded by lmt, dd, kac, lwrc (companies whose products have actually seen mil service).

 

I've never seen a WOA or LWRC LPK but this is a part where i think a lot of people seem to overlook.  i wish i had the money and time to take pictures to compare all the lower parts kit stuff.  when you put a colt LPK side by side with a PSA LPK, you can easily see and feel the difference.  

 

you should also put on your list the G&R Tactical LPK and the LMT LPK.  G&R uses all colt small parts (springs, roll pins, etc) and LMT safety selectors, takedown and pivot pins, etc.

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LWRC LPK is outstanding but expensive and can be hard to find. Their trigger is very nice for being a standard part.

 

I actually like Stag LPKs. I have had only one part give me an issue, it was a mag catch button that was too small, easily and cheaply replaced. Their trigger is meh, but I usually replace it with a Geissele or ALG anyway

 

DD and Colt are good too, the Colt LPK is $$$$$. I haven't used an LMT LPK but their reputation is good, same with G&R, bit I would expect nothing less from them.

 

I have a Midwest PX LPK that I got with an ALG ACT. Haven't built anything with it yet, but I expect it to be stellar like everything else. Ty will likely be my go to guy for LPK in the future.

 

DPMS parts have given me fits in the past, but they were all you could find for a while. Bad selector and detent, no/shallow detent cups in takedown pins, out of spec buffer retaining pin, loose bolt catch, awful trigger with disconnector that didn't line up with the trigger properly. I had to take three DPMS kits to compete one lower. Swapped them parts with a Stag kit as soon as it came in.

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Where could you find a LMT for under $1k shipped? Saw one today at Ramsey Outdoor but it was $1900 OTD.

I'm happy to hear that the $ from refrigerant I picked up from you is going to a good cause! Everyone should have at least one AR. If you decide to build one, let me know I can help you assemble it. I have a nice bench set up with a Tipton vice I use to build mine on in the garage. I also have all the tools, armors wrench, torque wrench, roll pin punch set, ect. I've done a few so far. Even if you just order a complete upper, you can save a bunch of loot by spending an hour building your own lower. Once you see how easy it is you'll understand why we all build them.

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I'm happy to hear that the $ from refrigerant I picked up from you is going to a good cause! Everyone should have at least one AR. If you decide to build one, let me know I can help you assemble it. I have a nice bench set up with a Tipton vice I use to build mine on in the garage. I also have all the tools, armors wrench, torque wrench, roll pin punch set, ect. I've done a few so far. Even if you just order a complete upper, you can save a bunch of loot by spending an hour building your own lower. Once you see how easy it is you'll understand why we all build them.

 

Hey Thanks for the offer! I've pretty much decided to go with the prebuilt AR, but down the road I'm most likely going to want to build a different upper so i may just take you up on that.  

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Hey Thanks for the offer! I've pretty much decided to go with the prebuilt AR, but down the road I'm most likely going to want to build a different upper so i may just take you up on that.

Cool say when. I'm always up for assembling a rifle.

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You can buy a completed upper and a completed lower and still be about $4-600 and that is all you need. The rest of the money could be for furniture. You could get a stripped lower for REALLY cheap, a lower parts kit but if you do not want to actually assemble the inner workings then get the completed lower.

 

As for resalw value, it depends more on the type rather than the name. Sure Colt/Bush/Stag may sell high but you are paying for the name IMO. Spikes/M&P/ hell even Anderson are all just as good lowers as colt bush or stag, the difference is the roll mark.

Can someone actually show me where I can buy a complete lower and complete upper and build a complete working AR for $400?

 

I keep hearing how cheap it is to build your own, but from looking around a bit, I don't see it happening for $400-$600.

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Sales of crappy parts or configurations you don't really want. Yes, it can happen, no you shouldn't buy it. Not paying top dollar for a brand name is one thing, spending bottom dollar for garbage is a completely different thing. 

 

I think, realistically, to get what you really want (whatever that is, unless it is trash) you end up spending $800-$1000 with some shopping around. Sure, you can buy pre-made guns for that or less, but you'll end up replacing furniture and parts until you are happy and you are back over that price.  

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I finally bought a Colt LE 6920 and I'm Happy with it. Got it used with a few rounds thru it but its a clean, complete gun for a lot less then my initial budget even after making it compliant. 

 

Sure searching around the AR Picture threads you see pictures of stocks, grips, handguards, and misc. doodads that will dress up your rifle, but do you need them? Right now my answer (for myself) is no. 

 

The Stock was pinned to fit me and so far its comfortable to shoot. The standard grip that came with it is fine for now. I dont need to change it until i find something wrong with it but it works for me. I dont plan on hanging anything off the rails just yet so the standard hand guards are ok for now. 

 

From what I've been reading this Gun is like a Civic. People start upgrading stuff just because they think it's cool or it looks cool, or someone told them it's cool. not necessarily because it's what fits their needs.. 

 

Even after all the forum/research time I've been spending I still would've bought pre-built over building it for myself. I picked it up Saturday and i was out shooting on Sunday enjoying the rifle.

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Can someone actually show me where I can buy a complete lower and complete upper and build a complete working AR for $400?

 

I keep hearing how cheap it is to build your own, but from looking around a bit, I don't see it happening for $400-$600.

Psa ptac rifle kits are seen for $400 regularly. Add $60 for a cheap lower and $150 for complains work and you are right at $600.

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DPMS I avoid at all costs. Allegedly the .308 rifles are GTG but I have no experience with them.

 

 

not relevant to this thread.. by my 20 year old DPMS runs extremely well as long as it is maintained... my home brew 556 guns run constant.. no issues even with neglect.. but the 308 dpms likes to be relatively clean..

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Can someone actually show me where I can buy a complete lower and complete upper and build a complete working AR for $400?

 

I keep hearing how cheap it is to build your own, but from looking around a bit, I don't see it happening for $400-$600.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18894/s/psa-16-carbine-length-chf-m4-5-56-1-7-rifle-kit/

 

$500 puts you right in the middle of that range.  yes, it's palmetto, which some could argue isn't a top tier brand, and i have limited experience with them. but for the money, i believe you probably get some good bang for your buck. (see what i did there?)  :prankster:

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http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18894/s/psa-16-carbine-length-chf-m4-5-56-1-7-rifle-kit/

 

$500 puts you right in the middle of that range. yes, it's palmetto, which some could argue isn't a top tier brand, and i have limited experience with them. but for the money, i believe you probably get some good bang for your buck. (see what i did there?) :prankster:

You still need a lower, muzzle brake, sights, and compliance work. That pushes it right into that $750+ range anyway. I could buy and already assembled compliant stag arms or others for that price.

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http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18836/s/ptac-16-carbine-length-308-win-1-10-upper-with-bcg-and-charging-handle/

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18862/s/ptac-ar15-blackhawk-complete-lower-receiver/

 

there's $530, plus a brake and compliance work...with transfer, etc. i bet you could have that for less than $750.

i'm sure there are cheaper rifles out there, i look to palmetto because i believe you get pretty decent quality for your money, which again, some people may feel differently.

 

https://www.stagarms.com/model-3/

(the cheapest i see on their site is $895)

 

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/stag-arms-model-2-ar15-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0

($750 but still needs brake + compliance work)

 

there must be a mythical $500 beast out there somewhere, but NJ legal...?  that's a tough buy

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