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New M9 being offered to the Army

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Smith & Wesson is getting the contract. General Dynamic did not team up with Smith & Wesson for the fun of it. 

 

Not likely. 

 

Entrants:

 

* S&W M&P9 variant

* Sig P320

* Deltonics STX

* Beretta PX4 variant

 

Program Requirements Solicitation

 

To facilitate the assessment, the following information is requested: 

 

1. Performance Improvement: Request information on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50m, terminal performance, modularity, reliability and durability in all environments. 

 

* The handgun and ammunition combination should, at a range of 50 meters, have a 90% or better probability of hit on a 4 inch circle when fired from a test fixture. It must maintain this throughout the life of the system. Systems are encouraged to utilize ergonomic and design improvements to minimize the effects of greater recoil energies, reducing the degradation of shooter-in-the-loop dispersion thereby improving the probability of hit. 

 

* Modularity includes but is not limited to compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers and sound suppressors. There is specific interest in designs that would be adaptable and/or adjustable to provide enhanced ergonomics that ensure 5th percentile female through 95th percentile male military personnel access to controls, such as the safety, magazine release, slide release and all other applicable controls. There is also interest in designs that offer these enhanced ergonomics while providing full ambidextrous controls.

 

* The handgun ammunition's terminal ballistics will be evaluated at ranges of 0-50m, over 0-14 inches of ballistic gelatin, to determine whether it provides more lethality when compared to the current U.S. Military M882 ammunition fired from the M9. Ammunition evaluated will meet international law of war conventions that bound current general purpose military ammunition. The Pistol evaluated must be capable of chamber pressures equal to or greater than SAAMI specification for the given cartridge, with prolonged reliability equal to or greater than the current M9. However, the ability to accommodate higher chamber pressures in excess of 20% over SAAMI spec without degradation of reliability is of specific interest. 

 

* Reliability and Durability includes but is not limited to Mean Rounds between Stoppage (MRBS), Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) and Service Life. There is specific interest in designs with ratings of at least 2,000 rounds MRBS, 10,000 rounds MRBF and 35,000 round Service Life. 

 

2. Production capacity estimates. Request information on minimum and maximum monthly production rates for a military handgun and associated ammunition as well as the lead times to achieve these production rates. This estimate should consider a US based production facility by the third year of deliveries. This capacity should be above and beyond any current production orders or current sales. If new facilities are planned or required, so state. A list of State and Federal agencies, as well as foreign governments, that have adopted the handgun should also be included. 

 

3. Detailed descriptions of proposed handguns to include pictures, brochures, etc. that will convey the principles as well as general and specific capabilities behind the submissions. Physical dimensions, weight and safety features should be included. 

 

4. Summarized and detailed test data from any certified test facility that addresses improvements in the areas proposed. Test operating procedures utilized and independent evaluations are also solicited. 

 

5. Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) Estimate. Request estimated pricing for the submission based on the following quantities: 250,000 to 550,000 handguns. 

 

So here's the kicker: 

 

Which entrant do you think will meet the ability to swap modular grips to meet 99% of shooters hands?  Which entrant has the ability to change calibers down the line?  Which entrant also has previous history supplying a handgun to the DoD?  Which entrant has the production capacity to meet the production quotas?

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Actually a the M&P and the SIg meet all those requirements, although I'm not sure where you got the caliber change thing from or the list of guns entered. S&W also has a long and storied history of selling guns to the US government.

 

The odd things is the caliber thing, it seems they really want something other then 9, but putting lethality studies on the gun manufacturer's list seems strange seeing how ammo procurement and its performance its a separate thing hamstrung by conventions and other things.

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They rejected the new Beretta, which I believe says two things:

 

they do NOT plan on retaining 9mm;

 

they DO have a favorite if not have already chosen " the winner "

 

it I was laying money at this, I would bet S&W and a hedge bet on Sig .

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They rejected the new Beretta, which I believe says two things:

 

they do NOT plan on retaining 9mm;

 

they DO have a favorite if not have already chosen " the winner "

 

it I was laying money at this, I would bet S&W and a hedge bet on Sig .

I assume you think they are going to go to .40?

 

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Personally, I'd suspect they would go to .45. It is already in the inventory, and all that jazz.

 

I mean if you are going to use ball ammo in a handgun you might as well go with the biggest pre-expanded bullet you can.

 

But that is what bothers me, you'd think they would first pick the loading the want, then say ok now we need a gun that lunches this at X fps and Y accuracy and holds Z bullets,  ... and .. go!

 

Instead they are picking guns as if somehow the a platform designed for 9mm would work equally well with .45 or as if you could compare someone's 9 to someone's .45 in a competition.

 

I don't get it

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I think they are a lot closer to going to the .40 than many of you and the rest of the internet firearms community realizes.

 

Not only do several branches of the gov't already use it, certain aspects of our military have been using .40 for a lot longer than people realize and have .40 S&W guns in bad men's holsters across the world as we speak.  You know those 1 bazillion-round-purchases of .40 S&W JHPs by the Post Office and such?  Reason for that.  Plus those same attributes that people use to bash it to all hell ("It's only stronger than 9mm but weaker than .45 and only holds more than .45 but not 9mm) do make it the definition of a compromise for a military looking for compromises in all things these days.  We are not in the middle of free-spending Cold War-era military economics ... it's going to be a battle of bullets and boom per dollar spent etc.

 

 

However, I also think the .45 ACP stands an outstanding chance of acceptance.  I think it has things going against it (like .40 does of course, no doubt about it) ... people will say things like, "So we used .45 ACP for nearly 100 years, switched away from it, but now switch back????  Why did we switch and waste time/money/lives at all???"  and if we were to dare go to a 1911 with it, man, while some people would rejoice, some voices could not be silenced in there vitriol .  Plus out of 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP , .45 ACP is the most expensive so there is that consideration.  (Again it's not really a governmental problem as a consideration, but consideration that some dissenting  general or congressman will raise that point and beat it to death.)

 

 

If they select a Glock, S&W M&P, or Sig P226/229 in .40 S&W I will be satisfied , just like I would if they selected those three in .45 ACP.  If they went back to the 1911 in .45, I also would be pretty satisfied.  I really doubt it's anything other than those two, I cannot see they selecting the niche .357 SIG unless they get some sort of sweeeeeeetheart deal (which is entirely possible) and I really cannot see them retaining 9mm when they make so many points against it.

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Personally, I'd suspect they would go to .45. It is already in the inventory, and all that jazz.

 

I mean if you are going to use ball ammo in a handgun you might as well go with the biggest pre-expanded bullet you can.

 

But that is what bothers me, you'd think they would first pick the loading the want, then say ok now we need a gun that lunches this at X fps and Y accuracy and holds Z bullets, ... and .. go!

 

Instead they are picking guns as if somehow the a platform designed for 9mm would work equally well with .45 or as if you could compare someone's 9 to someone's .45 in a competition.

 

I don't get it

^^ This

 

I think they are a lot closer to going to the .40 than many of you and the rest of the internet firearms community realizes.

 

Not only do several branches of the gov't already use it, certain aspects of our military have been using .40 for a lot longer than people realize and have .40 S&W guns in bad men's holsters across the world as we speak. You know those 1 bazillion-round-purchases of .40 S&W JHPs by the Post Office and such? Reason for that.

I don't think so. They will stay with a NATO specific round - 9mm or .45ACP.

 

DOD is it's own animal. It doesn't matter what DHS, DOE, etc.... gets.

 

Also, no one has a bazillion rounds in their ammo locker. That is a huge misconception.

 

What they do have is a piece of paper/contract that let's them buy up to a "bazillion" rounds of .40 S&W at a locked in price for a set number of years. It's called an IDIQ contract (Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity) and the agency orders what they need, when they need it, in smaller lots, all at the contract price.

 

It's pretty standard and saves a ton of money by locking in this years prices for next years purchases. Schools do it with milk, hospitals do it with bandages, my PD does it with fuel, the State does it with GSA/State Contract pricing for everything from flashlights to holsters to ammo.

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You know what I REALLY dread? The day the Army picks their new uber pea shooter of doom in .456 MaximumDeath made by the highest quality European whatnot (by which I mean lowest bidder, or highest bribery)  I'm going to have to watch every internet forum, everywhere, being swamped for a decade by a certain type of people who will do nothing but tell me that there is no better gun then their civilian version of the .456 HajjiStumper because the US military uses it.  I'll have to see remakes of every 80's cop movie, and I just hope we don't see a return of Mel Gibson's hair in Lethal Weapon. 

 

Quite seriously, I don't think I'll be able to browse the gunweb for a few years. 

 

You mean this?

 

IMG_2563.jpg

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Actually a the M&P and the SIg meet all those requirements, although I'm not sure where you got the caliber change thing from or the list of guns entered. S&W also has a long and storied history of selling guns to the US government.

 

The odd things is the caliber thing, it seems they really want something other then 9, but putting lethality studies on the gun manufacturer's list seems strange seeing how ammo procurement and its performance its a separate thing hamstrung by conventions and other things.

 

When was the last time S&W sold guns to the government that weren't Model 10s and 13s?

 

Caliber change is a backdoor way for the Army to adopt a different caliber.  By selecting a 9mm up front with the ability to change calibers, they can go to a new round with less logistical impact or contractual effort. 

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Not likely. 

 

Entrants:

 

* S&W M&P9 variant

* Sig P320

* Deltonics STX

* Beretta PX4 variant

 

Program Requirements Solicitation

 

To facilitate the assessment, the following information is requested: 

 

1. Performance Improvement: Request information on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50m, terminal performance, modularity, reliability and durability in all environments. 

 

* The handgun and ammunition combination should, at a range of 50 meters, have a 90% or better probability of hit on a 4 inch circle when fired from a test fixture. It must maintain this throughout the life of the system. Systems are encouraged to utilize ergonomic and design improvements to minimize the effects of greater recoil energies, reducing the degradation of shooter-in-the-loop dispersion thereby improving the probability of hit. 

 

* Modularity includes but is not limited to compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers and sound suppressors. There is specific interest in designs that would be adaptable and/or adjustable to provide enhanced ergonomics that ensure 5th percentile female through 95th percentile male military personnel access to controls, such as the safety, magazine release, slide release and all other applicable controls. There is also interest in designs that offer these enhanced ergonomics while providing full ambidextrous controls.

 

* The handgun ammunition's terminal ballistics will be evaluated at ranges of 0-50m, over 0-14 inches of ballistic gelatin, to determine whether it provides more lethality when compared to the current U.S. Military M882 ammunition fired from the M9. Ammunition evaluated will meet international law of war conventions that bound current general purpose military ammunition. The Pistol evaluated must be capable of chamber pressures equal to or greater than SAAMI specification for the given cartridge, with prolonged reliability equal to or greater than the current M9. However, the ability to accommodate higher chamber pressures in excess of 20% over SAAMI spec without degradation of reliability is of specific interest. 

 

* Reliability and Durability includes but is not limited to Mean Rounds between Stoppage (MRBS), Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) and Service Life. There is specific interest in designs with ratings of at least 2,000 rounds MRBS, 10,000 rounds MRBF and 35,000 round Service Life. 

 

2. Production capacity estimates. Request information on minimum and maximum monthly production rates for a military handgun and associated ammunition as well as the lead times to achieve these production rates. This estimate should consider a US based production facility by the third year of deliveries. This capacity should be above and beyond any current production orders or current sales. If new facilities are planned or required, so state. A list of State and Federal agencies, as well as foreign governments, that have adopted the handgun should also be included. 

 

3. Detailed descriptions of proposed handguns to include pictures, brochures, etc. that will convey the principles as well as general and specific capabilities behind the submissions. Physical dimensions, weight and safety features should be included. 

 

4. Summarized and detailed test data from any certified test facility that addresses improvements in the areas proposed. Test operating procedures utilized and independent evaluations are also solicited. 

 

5. Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) Estimate. Request estimated pricing for the submission based on the following quantities: 250,000 to 550,000 handguns. 

 

So here's the kicker: 

 

Which entrant do you think will meet the ability to swap modular grips to meet 99% of shooters hands?  Which entrant has the ability to change calibers down the line?  Which entrant also has previous history supplying a handgun to the DoD?  Which entrant has the production capacity to meet the production quotas?

Not likely??? General Dynamics= Huge defense contractor which equals LOBBYISTS. SMITH & WESSON FTW.

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