Red dot vs. 1-4 optic for carbine

[Toast 0]

What are your thoughts guys?

I'm stuck between a vortex 1-4 or aimpoint T1 but I want this thread to be more broad of a discussion then just that so what are your opinions on red dot vs 1-4

[vladtepes 1,060]

Depends on the goal...

 

Aimpoint on carbine with swing out quick detach 3x magnifier... Extremely fast inside 100... But the ability for reasonably reliable man size hits out to 300...

[High Exposure 5,661]

For what I do, mostly shooting 100 yards and in, I find that a T1 is ideal, a PRO is a suitable alternative, especially when I can buy 2 PROs for the price of a T1.

 

I have taken a T1 and a PRO out to 300 yards on 8" steel circles with no issues.

 

I tried the Aimpoint magnifier on a LaRue FTS mount behind a T1. I really wanted to like it, but it just did not work for me.

 

If I was routinely shooting past 100 yards I would look into a 1-4 or 1-6 variable power scope.

[vladtepes 1,060]

For what I do, mostly shooting 100 yards and in, I find that a T1 is ideal, a PRO is a suitable alternative, especially when I can buy 2 PROs for the price of a T1.

 

I have taken a T1 and a PRO out to 300 yards on 8" steel circles with no issues.

 

I tried the Aimpoint magnifier on a LaRue FTS mount behind a T1. I really wanted to like it, but it just did not work for me.

 

If I was routinely shooting past 100 yards I would look into a 1-4 or 1-6 variable power scope.

 

 

what issues did you have with the magnifier? while it is not perfect.. it serves the role of having the ability to reach out with a little magnification when needed.. again assuming that the primary use is 100 and in..

[Vlad G 345]

What is you budget?

 

A high quality 1-4 or 1-6 is no slower at ANY range then a red dot, and a heck of a lot faster past 200 yards.   I crappy scope will be worse everywhere. A middle of the road scope will be a touch slower close up and a lot faster further out.

 

Personally I think red dot magnifiers are a waste of weight, they get in the way, the combined weight of a red dot and magnifier is about as much as a scope, magnifying a 2 or 4 MOA dot only makes the dot bigger too, etc. 

 

If your ONLY options are a 1-4 pst scope or a T1, I'd say get the T1.  Actually seeing how the T1 is twice the cost of a 1-4 vortex, buy a Aimpoint Pro for the same money and spend the difference on ammo.

 

if you are willing to spend $700+ you can move into the realm of low power scopes that start to compete with the red dots for close up speed.

[Bully 749]

I went with a 1-4 with an illuminated reticle.

 

For my needs I went with a Burris, I think. I picked it up lightly used for a couple hundred bucks. As I'm not an "operator" at all, it fills my need of fast, low light acquisition and the ability to reach out a bit further. Pretty much perfect. If I had the loot, I would have gotten the Leupy Firedot. Unfortunately I'm a "Champagne taste/beer budget" kinda guy.

 

My dos centavos.

 

C

[FLHX 1]

I prefer a 1x4 scope. My rifle is used mainly for 3gun and range use. I bought a Nikon 223 when I first started getting into shooting. I could of made a better buy for around the same price.

 

I am now in the process of comparing scopes for an upgrade. I am not looking to spend all that much money and the ones I am looking at now are the Burris and Vortex. I have put everything on hold until after the SHOT show as Vortex is coming out with a new model that looks like it will be a winner at my price range.

 

So I prefer a scope to a RDS. I have a Vortex SPARC on my 15-22 and its good for what I use it for steel challenge matches. So I think you really need to look hard at what role the rifle will have and decide on a scope.  I also have the same taste that's why I think this new scope from Vortex will be a winner and it's 1x6.

 

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/strike_eagle_riflescopes

[Vlad G 345]

I'm really withholding judgement on their new scope until I get my eyeball behind it. There is only so much you can do at that price point so I wonder where they cut corners.

[Tack Tickle 0]

When magnifying the Aimpoint, the dot size will increase. However, with an EOTech you will not have an increase in dot size. The Aimpoint PRO has a 2 MOA dot. 6 MOA dot at 100 yards is not very large. Here is a pic of an EOTech with no magnification.

http://s2.photobucket.com/user/los3088/media/EOTechphotos00925.jpg.html

And the same pic with the 3x magnifier behind it.

http://s2.photobucket.com/user/los3088/media/EOTechphotos01125.jpg.html

 

You will have a similar issue with the 1-4 zoom scopes. Depending on whether it is first or second focal plane. First focal plane will have the reticle increase in size as you zoom. Second focal plane the reticle will stay the same size, which zoomed in is very thin. They both have their pros and cons. The pro for the first focal plane increasing is size is being able to keep the MOA markers, Mil dots or "Hash Grid" in spec with the actual target. So a Mil Dot at 100 yards will be 1" at the target. The con is the reticle can get quite large zoomed in. The pro for the second focal plane is the reticle is super thin zoomed in for precision shots. Obviously the con is you can only use the Hash Grid at a specific zoom on the scope. Some more food for thought when buying a variable scope.

Here is a good video from Vortex to explain the focal planes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XgugJSqpoE#t=79

 

As Vlad said, some do not like the flip to side magnifier and some love it. That being said, I love the 1-4 zoom setup and the red dot with flip to side zoom.

 

Magnifying a 2 or 4 MOA dot only makes the dot bigger too, etc.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Honestly, if I had to do it all again, I'd ditch the 1-6x optic for a fixed 4x optic.  A fixed optic is much lighter and cheaper, and with practice, can be used within 100yd ranges.

[Screwball 483]

When magnifying the Aimpoint, the dot size will increase. However, with an EOTech you will not have an increase in dot size. The Aimpoint PRO has a 2 MOA dot. 6 MOA dot at 100 yards is not very large. Here is a pic of an EOTech with no magnification.

http://s2.photobucket.com/user/los3088/media/EOTechphotos00925.jpg.html

And the same pic with the 3x magnifier behind it.

http://s2.photobucket.com/user/los3088/media/EOTechphotos01125.jpg.html

Sorry, but if your magnifier is behind the red dot and the target, your dot size compared to target DOES NOT change...

 

With a 3x magnifier, a 2 MOA dot is still 2 MOA. That means at 100 yards, your dot represents 2". If you magnify the image, your dot is still 2" at 100 yards... just appears bigger.

 

The dot and its relationship to the target hasn't changed, but the relationship of the sight picture to your eye has. It would seem like a 6 MOA dot, but your target is also 3x, so it cancels that out and results in the same 2 MOA dot, just looking bigger.

[checko 180]

Sorry, but if your magnifier is behind the red dot and the optic, you dot size compared to target DOES NOT change...

 

With a 3x magnifier, a 2 MOA dot is still 2 MOA. That means at 100 yards, your dot represents 2". If you magnify the image, your dot is still 2" at 100 yards... just appears bigger.

 

The dot and its relationship to the target hasn't changed, but the relationship of the sight picture to your eye has. It would seem like a 6 MOA dot, but your target is also 3x, so it cancels that out and results in the same 2 MOA dot, just looking bigger.

This

 

The eo may not look like it gets bigger cause its a tiny little 1 moa dot. It will magnify like any other dot.

[Tack Tickle 0]

6 MOA dot at 100 yards is not very large.

 

Nothing to be sorry over, you are correct. It will not be a 6" dot at 100 yards. BUT, I never stated it would be 6 MOA. I stated a 6 MOA dot at 100 yards is not that large.

 

What I meant to say was OPTICALLY the red dot will increase with magnification. Thank you for pointing that out for clarification for anyone reading this thread.

 

HOWEVER The EOTech dot is diffraction limited. When you use a magnifier to magnify the background, the dot is not magnified.

 

Sorry, but if your magnifier is behind the red dot and the target, your dot size compared to target DOES NOT change... With a 3x magnifier, a 2 MOA dot is still 2 MOA. That means at 100 yards, your dot represents 2".

 

Your statement below is incorrect. The EOTech dot does not increase in size with magnification.

 

The eo may not look like it gets bigger cause its a tiny little 1 moa dot. It will magnify like any other dot.

[checko 180]

Gotcha. I understand now. The ring increases but not the dot itself.

[MidwestPX 172]

Mission drives gear. That being said, here's how some of my rifles are setup with optics.

 

HD SBR: Aimpoint Pro

Vehicle carbine: Aimpoint Pro

870: Aimpoint T1

18" AR15 SPR: 1-8.5 FFP Bushnell

14.5" AR15: 1-6.5 FFP Bushnell

16" .308 AR: ACOG TA11

 

As you can see, my long guns which I would expect to use inside of 100 yards sport red dots. This is because they're fast and relatively light compared to variable power scopes and ACOGs. What I give up is longer range target identification and precision, factors that aren't in play with the intended range. The last three are general purpose rifles with the .308 being the newest addition. I considered another 1-8.5 or a 1-6.5 for it but chose to use a fixed power ACOG because 4x is enough for me to make good hits at 400 yards or further while saving me nearly a pound compared to a scope in a mount and still be reasonably quick at close ranges. My objective with the .308 was to build a capable general purpose rifle that would rival my SPR as my go-to rifle outside of a HD/CQ scenario. With the two AR15s with variable power scopes, I've found that I use the optics at either 1x or 6.5/8.5x. They come with a substantial weight penalty and in my experience, are not quite as fast at 1x as an Aimpoint due to being more sensitive to cheekweld. The ACOG is slower than the 1x setting at close ranges but it's a good compromise between speed, weight, and usefulness.

[Toast 0]

I'm not a fan of the flip to side magnifiers, that being said I think for my current build Im going with the 1-4. Any good recommendations for around $700? Right now Im thinking about the viper pst but Im open to options. I'll save the aimpoint for my 14.5in build haha

[Shane45 807]

Door kicker gun, red dot. When magnification comes into play, I go with a scope. I don't care for flip to the side mag solutions. I prefer the advantages an actual optic offers over a magnifier.

 

On a side note, I don't see how the size of the dot/sight picture would not be increased on the eotech/3X. I suspect that it is, its just not as pronounced.

[Vlad G 345]

I'm not a fan of the flip to side magnifiers, that being said I think for my current build Im going with the 1-4. Any good recommendations for around $700? Right now Im thinking about the viper pst but Im open to options. I'll save the aimpoint for my 14.5in build haha

 

 

Take a look at the Burris XTR II. With scopes you really need to see what they look like to YOUR eyes with the diopter properly adjusted. This is a good reason for a trip to Cabelas where they let you play with the scope and look at things close and far.

 

Oh and remember you need money for a mount.

[Tack Tickle 0]

The red dot does not increase in size due to angular resolution or Diffraction limited systems. The sight picture or "background" does increase in size. The reflection of light does not increase do to the wavelength of the light.

 

There is a very simple to understand formula to explain it, LOL...

 

Approximated the diffraction limit as , where d is the resolvable feature size, λ is the wavelength of light, n is the index of refraction of the medium being imaged in, and θ (depicted as α in the inscription) is the half-angle subtended by the optical objective lens.

 

 

 

On a side note, I don't see how the size of the dot/sight picture would not be increased on the eotech/3X. I suspect that it is, its just not as pronounced.

[Vlad G 345]

Maybe, but the EOTECH reticule looks like crap to me under ALL circumstances, and never looks like 1moa to me (and a lot of other folks with imperfect vision).

[Tack Tickle 0]

Yes, you might have a bad astigmatism in your eye. People with two ocular focal points will have issues with angular resolution. Instead of one circular dot, you will get a bunch of super tiny dots making up a somewhat circular red dot.

 

This will happen slightly with a Aimpoint. Instead of a ton of different little dots, you will usually get two dots slightly off depending on where your second focal point is in the eye.

 

Maybe, but the EOTECH reticule looks like crap to me under ALL circumstances, and never looks like 1moa to me (and a lot of other folks with imperfect vision).

[Shane45 807]

I still contend there has to be more to the story. Its not in my wheelhouse to refute the formula one way or another. But I do know the labors gone through by Schmidt and Bender, Premiere, Leupold, and US Optics to get second focal plane red dots to work in their scopes.

 

Indeed astigmatism is an issue for me with red dots and the reticle of the Eotech is worse for me. But on the clock the difference is non existant so why not go with the more rugged, better battery life solution(Aimpoint). But this is why I have moved to mostly scopes.

 

As always, optics is all about the tradeoffs and compromise.

[Vlad G 345]

Yes astigmatism is the issue, but a heck of a lot of people have that issue. The Aimpoint dot can actually be seen as a single dot with proper head placement and decent glasses. Nothing fixes the eotech issue (plus in my observation of other people's gear they fail a heck of a lot more)

[High Exposure 5,661]

what issues did you have with the magnifier? while it is not perfect.. it serves the role of having the ability to reach out with a little magnification when needed.. again assuming that the primary use is 100 and in..

Sorry I missed this earlier VladTepes. Vlad G covered my issues pretty succinctly though.