Does anybody even bother

[vladtepes 1,060]

 That all good! My opinion.. If you want to learn to be a good marksman then you need to learn how( Again my Opinion right)..  I can see how it can give confidence to a new shooter but like when I teach someone how to shoot a bow or guns we go without all the cams and optics lasers and such. all they are is a crutch for your own skill and compensate for short comings of marksmanship. but they do build confidence in a new shooter because it a ton easier to hit the bull. Teach them the difference if they show an interest  in the sport they will love the challenge and benefits in the long run. .. Again not a bad thing most optics can turn an poor shooter into an good one. but a marksman they are not.

 

. http://www.thenewrifleman.com/marksmanship-basics-the-new-shooters-guide/

 

 

so is a good quality trigger a crutch for those that can't handle a slightly stiffer or less smooth trigger? is a sling a crutch for those that can't maintain the weight of the rifle without? is a bipod a crutch since after all you can just hold the gun.. why use a bipod.. calling a red dot a crutch is silly at best... the sport moved on.. things are better now than they were in the past... MOST (if not all) shooters shoot faster and better with a red dot... because they are better.. the equipment evolves.. and improves.. and you can get on board and reap the benefits.. or you can punish yourself and mock the advancements...

 

I learned to shoot irons because they are simple.. and they function as a backup to me should the red dot fail.. but in the several years I have been using a red dot.. and the amount of abusive I give.. I have never once said "oh man glad I had those irons"... because the optics have yet to fail... buy quality gear and it will hold up.. it is tortured beyond the use of anyone here...

 

If I could only opt for one.. give me the quality optic over irons in any situation.. why? better.. and faster..

[Tallday 10]

so is a good quality trigger a crutch for those that can't handle a slightly stiffer or less smooth trigger? is a sling a crutch for those that can't maintain the weight of the rifle without? is a bipod a crutch since after all you can just hold the gun.. why use a bipod.. calling a red dot a crutch is silly at best... the sport moved on.. things are better now than they were in the past... MOST (if not all) shooters shoot faster and better with a red dot... because they are better.. the equipment evolves.. and improves.. and you can get on board and reap the benefits.. or you can punish yourself and mock the advancements...

 

I learned to shoot irons because they are simple.. and they function as a backup to me should the red dot fail.. but in the several years I have been using a red dot.. and the amount of abusive I give.. I have never once said "oh man glad I had those irons"... because the optics have yet to fail... buy quality gear and it will hold up.. it is tortured beyond the use of anyone here...

 

If I could only opt for one.. give me the quality optic over irons in any situation.. why? better.. and fast

 

 

 

 

 Its my opinion! Not a personal Insult I shoot both Irons and Red Dots/Optics for my Job and qualify with all (expert I may add) they both have there place. Yes they can be faster but faster is not always better or needed.  for work or play. Some matches/Qual courses I shoot only allow iron sight and they are a ton of fun to shoot . I can also tell you that in real world up close type situations you don't even look at sights its more instinctive point and shoot because the targets shoot back.(this is when practicing the fundamentals of shoot can save your live). Both are great and have a place in the shooting world. they are tools and can be toys for some and that fine too I have both. I just think people should learn how to shoot with a good foundation. This includes iron sights before they jump into the Ferrari and go 200mph. You also wouldn't take that Ferrari and go off road with it because its not built for that you don't need speed you need a truck. They are both drives but different Tools are needed. You still need to know the fundamentals of driving before you jump in any of them and go for a spin. Just my opinion!

[magnawing 5]

There's something other than iron sights?!?!?!

 

 

This signature is AWESOME!!!

[Tallday 10]

Regardless of preference it is the ability to keep rounds on target when your hair is on fire. Iron,glass,dots all work, it's the ability to stay in the fight (overcoming your fear) that most times wins the day. JMOP

true!  http://www.selfdefensepsa.com/secrets.html

if it is that kind of shooting not a match or range fun! all and all its a loss of fine motor skills and you don't even see the sights  you see people shooting back! and you point and shoot to hit your target muscle memory and the basics is all you need up close to fight for your life.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

true!  http://www.selfdefensepsa.com/secrets.html

if it is that kind of shooting not a match or range fun! all and all its a loss of fine motor skills and you don't even see the sights  you see people shooting back! and you point and shoot to hit your target muscle memory and the basics is all you need up close to fight for your life.

As I stated earlier, Most SD situations are in fact point and shoot!  The range of most SD shootings is well within 7 yards. In such situations with your life flashing before your eyes, muscle memory and not obtaining a good sight picture

is what will happen! Although there are always exceptions to this rule, they are few and far between!

[High Exposure 5,664]

As I stated earlier, Most SD situations are in fact point and shoot! The range of most SD shootings is well within 7 yards. In such situations with your life flashing before your eyes, muscle memory and not obtaining a good sight picture

is what will happen! Although there are always exceptions to this rule, they are few and far between!

This is bullshit.

[Shane45 807]

Just because point shooting is employed by the masses doesn't mean that's how it should be done or a goal to aspire to. A few I know who have been in multiple actual gunfights, they are not proponents of point shooting. Granted they are highly trained. But if you look into it you will find a common theme amongst this level of shooter, they aim....

[302w 83]

 

According to this thread: I can't shoot, my guns suck, and I'm not cool

 

Mall Ninjas really annoy me. They're constantly running "drills" at my range

 

Edit: office wallpaper certainly doesn't help me

[High Exposure 5,664]

If you think you don't have time to aim, you definitely don't have time to miss.

 

If you don't use your sights you will most likely miss. If you don't use your sights, you won't know if you hit. It's not like the movies.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

According to this thread: I can't shoot, my guns suck, and I'm not cool

 

Mall Ninjas really annoy me. They're constantly running "drills" at my range

 

Edit: office wallpaper certainly doesn't help me

 

I find a red dot more useful than a 7in knife strapped to the end of my gun.. lol

[Vlad G 345]

According to this thread: I can't shoot, my guns suck, and I'm not cool

That smells like a strawman argument. I don't think anyone here said that iron sights means you can't shoot or that your guns suck, the argument presented is actually the opposite, that people who DON'T use iron sights can't can't shoot and are range ninjas. In refuting that I don't believe anyone stated what you have just complained about.

[Old School 611]

         

 

 

This is NOT for anyone in particular.

 

Look you bunch of wieners...

 

If any sighting system was voided there would be a gap in firearms development.  

 

They all have their place.

 

In my advanced years I've seen all these systems come to fruition.

 

I've shot with all of them.

 

One thing hasn't been mentioned which is a component in he type of system used and why they are accepted by individuals and agencies.

 

TRAINING!!!

 

Some systems are easier to train on so they become more popular.

 

What I choose for games may not be what I choose for SHTF.

 

Play nice girls.

 

 

 

 

[mipafox 438]

302, you have great taste!

 

I know dots can be better but I use irons. I have a dot on an SMG and a dot on a Frankenbrew LMG upper, but that's it.

 

It's because I'm old, I know. It is what it is. If I want a dot I sight over the rear sight and just use the front. Boom, dot. This was the revised "quick kill" of the 90s in the ridiculously comprehensive rifle marksmanship TM. Under 50 yards they are the same at torsos as red dots. The drop in accuracy and elevation is inconsequential. Also works great for auto without a dot. I have tritium front sights and my dots are ready NOW. I have two switches, fire selector and trigger.

[Newtonian 453]

 

According to this thread: I can't shoot, my guns suck, and I'm not cool

 

Mall Ninjas really annoy me. They're constantly running "drills" at my range

 

Edit: office wallpaper certainly doesn't help me

Vlad what's the caliber of the one all the way on the right with the circular aluminum butt? 

[High Exposure 5,664]

As I stated earlier, Most SD situations are in fact point and shoot! The range of most SD shootings is well within 7 yards. In such situations with your life flashing before your eyes, muscle memory and not obtaining a good sight picture

is what will happen! Although there are always exceptions to this rule, they are few and far between!

Again, this is bullshit.

 

I am currently in New Mexico for work. I arrived on Sunday night and have spent the week so far in these small old houses that are used as shoot houses with sims doing CQB with an AR and a Glock.

 

As an experiment to prove to myself yet again that I am not wrong, at lunch I ran some solo runs through the house on static shoot/no shoot targets using point shooting. The funniest thing happened. I missed. A LOT. And I ran through a lot more ammo. I scored a few lucky hits, but they weren't good hits, or anywhere near where I would want them in real life.

 

I then did a few runs through the house using the sights. I was faster, more accurate, used less ammo and got multiple rapid critical hits on my targets - all with sights.

 

Point shooting does not work.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

so is a good quality trigger a crutch for those that can't handle a slightly stiffer or less smooth trigger? is a sling a crutch for those that can't maintain the weight of the rifle without? is a bipod a crutch since after all you can just hold the gun.. why use a bipod.. calling a red dot a crutch is silly at best... the sport moved on.. things are better now than they were in the past... MOST (if not all) shooters shoot faster and better with a red dot... because they are better.. the equipment evolves.. and improves.. and you can get on board and reap the benefits.. or you can punish yourself and mock the advancements...

 

I learned to shoot irons because they are simple.. and they function as a backup to me should the red dot fail.. but in the several years I have been using a red dot.. and the amount of abusive I give.. I have never once said "oh man glad I had those irons"... because the optics have yet to fail... buy quality gear and it will hold up.. it is tortured beyond the use of anyone here...

 

If I could only opt for one.. give me the quality optic over irons in any situation.. why? better.. and faster..

I think that you are focusing on self defense only.  I guarantee that I can outshoot you with an AR at 500m with an A2 iron sights and you using an Aimpoint zeroed at self defense ranges.  It is all relative.

[High Exposure 5,664]

But could your irons outshoot him with an optic designed to shoot 500m that was zeroed properly?

 

If we are gonna compare, at least make it apples to apples.

[Shane45 807]

HE, I think some people get stuck on a theme because its often repeated. They fail to dive a little deeper and do the research to find that the research actually supports what we are saying. Fer example PD's that teach aimed fire and the improvements in OIS as a result. Or the follow up of post Givens class students that go on to be involved in armed conflicts.

 

JC_68Westy, Im not sure I fully understand your statement. I think its rather self evident that all shooting scenarios are relative. To extrapolate your statement, its like saying you would do better than me with your AR than I would with a 38 snub. Indeed the context matters. But is it likely I would fair better than you at 500 meters using my OBR with my Hendsolt 4-16 scope? Does that make me a better shooter or am I picking a better suited tool for the task? As I have said many times before, pick the right golf club for the shot you need to make. Now many of us see an advantage to having a rifle configured in a way that it covers a broad spectrum of capabilities. The fact of the matter is I shoot more accurately with iron sights when I am shooting on a static range. But I shoot a red dot more accurately and at greater speed over a broader spectrum of conditions and circumstances.

[302w 83]

That smells like a strawman argument. I don't think anyone here said that iron sights means you can't shoot or that your guns suck, the argument presented is actually the opposite, that people who DON'T use iron sights can't can't shoot and are range ninjas. In refuting that I don't believe anyone stated what you have just complained about.

 

It was a joke. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

I think that you are focusing on self defense only.  I guarantee that I can outshoot you with an AR at 500m with an A2 iron sights and you using an Aimpoint zeroed at self defense ranges.  It is all relative.

 

so you prove your point but stating you shoot better in a discipline that I have absolutely 0 interest in? why would I even shoot an AR15 at 500 yards with irons or a red dot... there are far better tools for the job... I bet you can also hammer nails better with a pair of pliers than I can (heres a hint.. I would use a hammer).. 

 

I will take you up on that challenge (and lose since I have never shot with a red dot at 500 yards, although I do shoot steel plates at 300 with the red dot).. and then we will go run and gun with your 24in bull barreled AR with irons against my SBR with a red dot.. and at the end of the day you will tell me how you destroyed me at something I have never done... and we will compare run and gun notes.. and we will be left with absolutely no conclusion other than using the wrong tool for a job is pointless....

[High Exposure 5,664]

HE, I think some people get stuck on a theme because its often repeated. They fail to dive a little deeper and do the research to find that the research actually supports what we are saying. Fer example PD's that teach aimed fire and the improvements in OIS as a result. Or the follow up of post Givens class students that go on to be involved in armed conflicts.

Agreed. People don't know what they don't know...

 

I should also add that all the sims guns we are using are iron sights only.

[Shane45 807]

The only thing I would add to the conversation is that point or retention shooting does have its place IMO. But it is almost exclusively at contact distances. But after the GTFOM shot and some distance is created, aim I shall.

[mipafox 438]

 

so you prove your point but stating you shoot better in a discipline that I have absolutely 0 interest in? why would I even shoot an AR15 at 500 yards with irons or a red dot... there are far better tools for the job... I bet you can also hammer nails better with a pair of pliers than I can (heres a hint.. I would use a hammer).. 

 

I will take you up on that challenge (and lose since I have never shot with a red dot at 500 yards, although I do shoot steel plates at 300 with the red dot).. and then we will go run and gun with your 24in bull barreled AR with irons against my SBR with a red dot.. and at the end of the day you will tell me how you destroyed me at something I have never done... and we will compare run and gun notes.. and we will be left with absolutely no conclusion other than using the wrong tool for a job is pointless....

 

 

I don't know if you noticed, but the guy is a Marine. You don't bring 4 rifles with you when you go out in the field. If you have an M16 you are expected to use it to hit every threat from 0 to 500 meters (or 550). Irons work very well for that all-around job, I've done it. Obviously the military has shifted to more optics to get a little advantage close in or further out at a slight expense on overall performance. But it's obvious to me at least where he got this mentality from. And there are people that actually enjoy shooting irons at 500 meters like the way the rifle was designed and the way they were taught. Not everybody buys an AR to blast somebody in their bedroom or do 3 gun.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

But could your irons outshoot him with an optic designed to shoot 500m that was zeroed properly?

 

If we are gonna compare, at least make it apples to apples.

Changing from BZO to 500m or any other range requires turning the rear sight elevation to your known settings.  No need to re-zero.  This is where actually putting in the time with the irons (training) becomes a major advantage.  I am not a purist by any means, I really like the ACOG, can't stand some of the other optics.  This is meant to be a counterpoint to the specialized gun mentality.

 

vladtepes, the iron sighted A2 is designed to be used at any range and the sights can be rapidly adjusted, no need to run with a bunch of guns strapped to your back.  Again training with the weapon system to a high level of proficiency is the key.

[AverageJoe 95]

I like cake.

[Old School 611]

Does anyone ever use the battle sight on an A2 rear sight?

 

I find it quick and effective.

[Vlad G 345]

I find it quick and effective.

Lets get technical. What is the definition of "quick"? What is the definition of "effective"?

[Shane45 807]

JC, Im not here to speak for High Exposure but I am very sure he knows how to adjust an iron sight. I would say his response is to your scenario that put your opponent with an optic not zeroed for the distance of the engagement you proposed. Similar to what I said in regards to an OBR. But lets focus for a second on your specialization comment. I would argue that your rifle, with irons only is more specialized than mine with a red dot. Why? Because I believe mine will work better in a broader spectrum of scenarios.

 

And now for something completely different, at this stage I have moved away from red dots to low power optics. I find that they give 90% of the advantage of a red dot and all the advantages of a scope with one personal need for etched reticles and diopter adjustment. I don't think anyone here is saying don't enjoy irons if you like them. And I doubt anyone in this thread doesn't have a fundamental understanding of irons. What is being said to those that are pointing at those that use other means and crying mall ninja, do not understand of what they speak. We all know a mall ninja when we see one. Again, I don't think anyone in this thread really qualifies for that title. So the comments don't really make sense in this discussion.

[redwings9 5]

HE just a shot in the dark are you down at Artesia, FLETC west ? If so you are getting some good stuff and nice to shoot someone else ammo......... If so enjoy. Over the years I spent well over a year between both training sites Glynco and Artesia. The New Mexico site years ago was how do say way off the grid. Regards

[Old School 611]

Lets get technical. What is the definition of "quick"? What is the definition of "effective"?

 

 

Superstar!!!

 

You are just the bomb.  Wish I could be as good as you!