Does anybody even bother

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Does anyone ever use the battle sight on an A2 rear sight?

 

I find it quick and effective.

I always use the small hole on my A2 rear sight.

It's like looking through the knothole in the fence around the ballpark, but your face is pressed up against the fence.

The big hole on the A2 rear (I assume that's what you're calling the 'battle sight') is like the whole section of fence has been knocked down in front of me.

A lot less depth of field, and now it's up to me to keep the front post centered in my field of view in order for it to be an accurate 'pointer'

(The vast majority of my AR shooting is at known distances of 100, 200, 300 and 600 yds)

[Old School 611]

I always use the small hole on my A2 rear sight.

It's like looking through the knothole in the fence around the ballpark, but your face is pressed up against the fence.

The big hole on the A2 rear (I assume that's what you're calling the 'battle sight') is like the whole section of fence has been knocked down in front of me.

A lot less depth of field, and now it's up to me to keep the front post centered in my field of view in order for it to be an accurate 'pointer'

(The vast majority of my AR shooting is at known distances of 100, 200, 300 and 600 yds)

 Totally agree.  But for the close stuff I shoot both eyes open and use the large aperture.  Very seldom do I use it but it's there.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

Iron sights and a 1911.

 

Now get off my lawn!

 

 

[Vlad G 345]

Superstar!!!

 

You are just the bomb.  Wish I could be as good as you!

 

Thats a quality productive comment right there.You might note I never made any judgments or comments about other people's shooting ability, because everyone is in a different spot, and there better people then me and worse people then me and don't think thats relevant. 

 

I wasn't dismissing your experience or opinion, I'm actually curious what the terms mean. Are we talking about making a hit on a 24x24 paper target at 20 yards in 2 seconds from low ready, are we talking about a hit on a 8" plate 100 yards in one second from low ready, are we talking about 5 second hit on a paper plate at 5 yards? 

 

A lot of this type of conversation would make a lot more sense if we actually talked about the expected performance is under what circumstances. 

 

So for the rest of the conversation lets assume I'm a terrible shot, I can't hit the side of a barn with a shotgun.  Please instruct me of what do you mean about quick and effective, and I'm not being condescending about it, I just want to know what the hell that means so I have a friking idea what we are talking about. 

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

You guys fight a lot.

[bhunted 887]

You guys fight a lot.

They need to vent. They have a lot of built up gas and need to cut back on fiber.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I know the Boy Scouts still teach iron sights. In NRA classes we use iron also. We have guns with optics to use also but the start is irons

[Old School 611]

Thats a quality productive comment right there.You might note I never made any judgments or comments about other people's shooting ability, because everyone is in a different spot, and there better people then me and worse people then me and don't think thats relevant. 

 

I wasn't dismissing your experience or opinion, I'm actually curious what the terms mean. Are we talking about making a hit on a 24x24 paper target at 20 yards in 2 seconds from low ready, are we talking about a hit on a 8" plate 100 yards in one second from low ready, are we talking about 5 second hit on a paper plate at 5 yards? 

 

A lot of this type of conversation would make a lot more sense if we actually talked about the expected performance is under what circumstances. 

 

So for the rest of the conversation lets assume I'm a terrible shot, I can't hit the side of a barn with a shotgun.  Please instruct me of what do you mean about quick and effective, and I'm not being condescending about it, I just want to know what the hell that means so I have a friking idea what we are talking about. 

 

 OK Gloves back on though I do find you attitude condescending and aloof.

 

Battle sight 8" circle @ <50yds off hand.

Out at 300yds 6" group with A2 small aperature prone.

 

Time?  I have no idea.

[Vlad G 345]

I will admit I can be dismissive of certain things, but certain things really need dismissing, like the notion that someone is not a "real rifleman" because they chose equipment different that someone else preferences.  Sorry but I don't dismiss people who drive cars with automatic transmissions, I will be condescending to the notion that only manual transmissions make a someone a "real driver", and point out that F1 cars are now automatic, just like military rifles are more likely then not to have optics on them. 

 

On your actual numbers, I heartily agree. If you are going to use an A2 rear sight the large aperture is very well suited to minute-of-face (8" or so) up to 50 yards, but after that it is small aperture all the way. 

 

That said, I'm much faster with a red dot or a scope set to 1x at pretty much any distance, according to the electronic timer. 

[Old School 611]

I will admit I can be dismissive of certain things, but certain things really need dismissing, like the notion that someone is not a "real rifleman" because they chose equipment different that someone else preferences.  Sorry but I don't dismiss people who drive cars with automatic transmissions, I will be condescending to the notion that only manual transmissions make a someone a "real driver", and point out that F1 cars are now automatic, just like military rifles are more likely then not to have optics on them. 

 

On your actual numbers, I heartily agree. If you are going to use an A2 rear sight the large aperture is very well suited to minute-of-face (8" or so) up to 50 yards, but after that it is small aperture all the way. 

 

That said, I'm much faster with a red dot or a scope set to 1x at pretty much any distance, according to the electronic timer. 

 

Do you shoot both eyes open?  Just curious...

[Vlad G 345]

Do you shoot both eyes open?  Just curious...

 

It depends.

 

With iron's yes if I'm using the large aperture, no if I'm using the small one. 

 

With a red dot, almost always, unless shooting from the left side, in which case see bellow. 

 

With low powered variable scope mostly yes even if I have my scope cranked up all the way unless the light conditions make me really focus on one eye.

 

I also most definitely close my right eye if I have to shoot off my left side, because thats the only way to make my head be in the right spot.  

 

I do think this one may depend more on individual vision and what works for each person. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

i shoot pistol one eye. iron sights one eye. eotech or acog, both eyes open.

[Shane45 807]

I shoot everything, including precision rifle both eyes open.

[High Exposure 5,661]

HE just a shot in the dark are you down at Artesia, FLETC west ? If so you are getting some good stuff and nice to shoot someone else ammo......... If so enjoy. Over the years I spent well over a year between both training sites Glynco and Artesia. The New Mexico site years ago was how do say way off the grid. Regards

Nope. My training is in something other than CQB, but there is a CQB component to each practical exercise. It's been sims only.

 

It is way off the grid though.

 

Do you shoot both eyes open? Just curious...

I shoot everything both eyes open except when zeroing and pistol shots past 25 yards.

[TonyS. 12]

I'm using irons on all my handguns. Sure, I'd love to go optic but I can't see spending the $$ for practice shooting.

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

I was trained from 5 years old to shoot with iron sights. It's a skill set that my dad and my grandfather drilled into my head from the very beginning.

I still keep proficiency with them, however, I find that as I get older, the ability to hit my target with irons is still there, but target identification is the problem.

[redwings9 5]

HE nice , if ever you get a chance have your agency send you to one of the afore mention sites as they have everything available and I mean everything. DHS picks up the state or local agencies costs.

[High Exposure 5,661]

Where do people get the idea that you don't see your sights and just see people shooting at you?

 

It is not true. If you train yourself to use your sights, you will use your sights. If you train yourself to be observant, you will be observant.

 

If you train it, you retain it.

 

The idea of absolute loss of all "fine motor skills" is absolutely flat untrue when talking about trained actions. Untrained actions are another story, and can be susceptible to some degradation.

 

Think about it:

Trigger Pull = fine motor skill

Mag release = fine motor skill

 

These things would be impossible if you lost the ability to control fine motor skills under stress.

 

Ask an F22 or AH64 pilot if they retain their fine motor skills under stress. Ask a NASCAR or Indy driver pushing through a crash scene, a Pro Golfer whose one behind the leader at the back 9, or a MLB player whose at bat in the bottom of the ninth, with a full count, down by one, and bases loaded. Trained fine motor skills are retained.

 

It's called "procedural memory" and the goal is to achieve the unconscious competence level of achievement - You think about the final necessary act and you can complete the appropriate steps on auto pilot. This allows you to devote the lion's share of your concentration on situational awareness, target acquisition, target identification, shoot/no shoot decisions, and sight picture while your body handles the grip, appropriate body position and movements, trigger manipulation, light/laser switches, and everything else you have trained on at the square range.

 

HE nice , if ever you get a chance have your agency send you to one of the afore mention sites as they have everything available and I mean everything. DHS picks up the state or local agencies costs.

I will look into it. Thanks for the tip!

[usnmars 136]

[302w 83]

Should add that it's NSFW

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Parts 1, 2 and 3 are friggen hysterical!

And definitely NSFW

But enjoy them with your coworkers anyway!!

[Old School 611]

HE nice , if ever you get a chance have your agency send you to one of the afore mention sites as they have everything available and I mean everything. DHS picks up the state or local agencies costs.

 

Who pays for it?

[PD2K 115]

 

Love it!!!!

[raz-0 1,259]

true!  http://www.selfdefensepsa.com/secrets.html

if it is that kind of shooting not a match or range fun! all and all its a loss of fine motor skills and you don't even see the sights  you see people shooting back! and you point and shoot to hit your target muscle memory and the basics is all you need up close to fight for your life.

 

Dear god, this "fine motor skills" BS makes me want to punch people. Are you doing something with your hands other than making flapping motions with them held like paddles that originate form the wrist? You HAVE to when operating a firearms? You don't say?!?!  THEN YOU ARE USING FINE MOTOR SKILLS!!!

 

Seriously, go talk to a neurologist or anyone well versed in child development. Words have meaning, and a bunch of people who whine about people mixing up clip and magazine could definitely use to pull their heads out of their behinds and learn the meanings of the words they use regularly. 

 

 

 OK Gloves back on though I do find you attitude condescending and aloof.

 

Battle sight 8" circle @ <50yds off hand.

Out at 300yds 6" group with A2 small aperature prone.

 

Time?  I have no idea.

 

Anyone who uses the phrase "quick and effective" should have at least an approximate idea of how long it takes to do said thing effectively, or stop saying they are doing it quick. 

 

 

As for optics vs. iron? I've broken 4 or 5 iron sights just during normal use. I've broken 1 optic through normal use. All the rest have withstood normal use and abuse and then some. That includes a cheap chinese made 1-4x scope that I took an angle grinder to so I could use a scope tail on it. Still worked fine. 

 

As for irons being some sort of lost art, I received about 5 minutes of instruction and about 20 minutes of critiqued practice with them in my entire life, and they aren't that hard to use. It's not some black art that makes you a real man and puts hair on your chest. I was maybe 11 when I learned how to use them. They are, however, extremely limited by the quality of the shooters vision. Various optics are MUCH, MUCH more accessible to the entirety of people who may want to shoot in that regard. They go from 0-fun a lot faster, and you don't have to keep an iron sighted only gun on hand to hassle newbies with if you let them use optics. This I suspect is the main reason for irons becoming marginalized. 

[Old School 611]

Dear god, this "fine motor skills" BS makes me want to punch people. Are you doing something with your hands other than making flapping motions with them held like paddles that originate form the wrist? You HAVE to when operating a firearms? You don't say?!?!  THEN YOU ARE USING FINE MOTOR SKILLS!!!

 

Seriously, go talk to a neurologist or anyone well versed in child development. Words have meaning, and a bunch of people who whine about people mixing up clip and magazine could definitely use to pull their heads out of their behinds and learn the meanings of the words they use regularly. 

 

 

 

Anyone who uses the phrase "quick and effective" should have at least an approximate idea of how long it takes to do said thing effectively, or stop saying they are doing it quick. 

 

 

As for optics vs. iron? I've broken 4 or 5 iron sights just during normal use. I've broken 1 optic through normal use. All the rest have withstood normal use and abuse and then some. That includes a cheap chinese made 1-4x scope that I took an angle grinder to so I could use a scope tail on it. Still worked fine. 

 

As for irons being some sort of lost art, I received about 5 minutes of instruction and about 20 minutes of critiqued practice with them in my entire life, and they aren't that hard to use. It's not some black art that makes you a real man and puts hair on your chest. I was maybe 11 when I learned how to use them. They are, however, extremely limited by the quality of the shooters vision. Various optics are MUCH, MUCH more accessible to the entirety of people who may want to shoot in that regard. They go from 0-fun a lot faster, and you don't have to keep an iron sighted only gun on hand to hassle newbies with if you let them use optics. This I suspect is the main reason for irons becoming marginalized. 

 

No comment!

[redwings9 5]

OS in answer to your question DHS is funded by our tax dollars. Good bad or indifferent that is the policy/agreements with state and local LE agencies.

[Kaiser7 33]

I pretty much exclusively shoot with irons. The sight that I've found that I personally do best with (between my vision, and just  because of how I am) are Garand-style sights, barleycorn front with a peep rear.

 

I'm not opposed to a RDS, or other device, but currently they're cost prohibitive. Also,  I find shooting with irons to be more fun (Going back to my airsoft days when I did have a cheap NCStar mounted on my M14 Socom airsoft gun).

I'd like to put a scope on one of my guns some day, and sight it in, just to try my hand at scoped shooting, but I just really enjoy shooting with irons.

 

Of course, I need a lot of practice, and one of these days I will finally get a range membership somewhere where I can shoot a rifle. Last time I brought out my AR I had to aim about a foot below the target because I hadn't properly set my sights, nor knew how to. (Though I've gotten a better front sight since then.)

All in all, I guess I just can't justify the expense of advanced optics, or their ability to fail. If I were in competitive shooting I could justify it, but for the rare occasion I actually go to shoot my rifles, it wouldn't be worth it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 It's not some black art that makes you a real man and puts hair on your chest

 

lol

[illy 1]

"Anyone driving an automatic not a manual car is using a crutch.

Anyone shooting a semi-auto handgun instead of a revolver is cheating."