45Doll 5,873 Posted February 28, 2015 I'm sure many of us have at one time or another considered the benefits of trigger jobs on our handguns. Who wouldn't like a lighter, smoother trigger? Especially if it improves our accuracy. And then when we select our handguns for personal protection, especially in New Jersey, we consider the possible legal consequences of a modified trigger in the event the handgun is used in a real defensive shooting. On Glock Talk today I read a post by Massad Ayoob that pointed to another post he wrote on this subject four days ago. It was the most comprehensive point-by-point exposition on the topic that I have seen. It confirmed some notions I had, and dispelled others. I thought it was worth reading for anyone who has a handgun they will rely on in a self-defense situation. http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/419191-facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
67gtonut 847 Posted February 28, 2015 Light Trigger and Hair Trigger...... two different animals..... and first..... I would still want to see a court case listed where the weight of the trigger became an issue on the validity of the shoot...... Even Ayoob does not quote a documented case where this became an issue..... I personally feel this is just a internet tale..... Now.... would I use a pistol with a 2-3lb match trigger in a HD situation ..... no. But IMHO ...and .... IANAL .... a 4lb+ trigger would be a none issue anywhere..... Just my thoughts..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PD2K 115 Posted February 28, 2015 Interesting read. Most Glock owners I know have installed the 3.5 lb trigger connector which I believe translates to ~5 lb pull. I wonder if that would be considered "hair trigger" as per this article: What Exactly Constitutes a ‘Hair Trigger’? That will generally be determined by manufacturer spec for “duty trigger” pull weight, and “common custom and practice” WITH THAT PARTICULAR FIREARM. With the popular Glock, the manufacturer’s position is that the nominal 5.5-lb. pull weight of the standard model is minimum for duty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,873 Posted February 28, 2015 Interesting read. Most Glock owners I know have installed the 3.5 lb trigger connector which I believe translates to ~5 lb pull. I wonder if that would be considered "hair trigger" as per this article: I have compared the Glock factory 'dot' connector and spring combo to a 'minus' connector with NY1 spring. The trigger does take on a different operational feel, but the pull weight remains pretty much the same. The minus/NY1 combo is the one preferred by Ayoob on his carry Glocks according to many of his posts. And since the weight is really not diminished, he doesn't consider it a liability. And Glock endorses that combination as well. My biggest takeaway is that pull weight is the only objective handgun measurement related to arguing for an accidental discharge. In my view, that makes it the most important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 28, 2015 .. I would still want to see a court case listed where the weight of the trigger became an issue on the validity of the shoot...... Even Ayoob does not quote a documented case where this became an issue..... THIS... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RecessedFilter 222 Posted February 28, 2015 Another thing I wouldn't worry about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted February 28, 2015 While I would not want to use a highly modified gun for self-defense, it has to do more with reliability than trigger pull. That said I find the entire argument presented in the S&W forum dubious at best. We all know that the law is only what any one judge or jury decides on a given day, but even with that I find issues. Here is where I see the flaw. Let's say that the police department in Chicago or someplace else decided that trigger pulls should be eight pound. The examples then seemed to say you did something dangerous if you had less than 8 pounds, all well and good. If that could stand then shouldn't all Chicago police shootings be found to be the result of reckless behavior because NY with its much bigger force determined that the minimum should be 11-12 pounds? Further I would think one could call in experts to prove that a lighter trigger is safer as even an expert marksman is more accurate and less likely to yank a shot. The bottom line is no matter what, all shootings are going to be fully investigated and it is better to never have to shoot someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,873 Posted February 28, 2015 As far as I can tell there's only three or four cases of ND supposedly connected to light trigger pull. And those cases were all revolvers that had been cocked, and discharged in SA mode. I can't find any pistol case law, as noted above. (I'm not a lawyer, and I don't have access to legal databases.) Here's a two part article by another author that basically calls B.S. on the weight/liability argument. I thought he made some good points and suggestions that should be considered. http://www.breachbangclear.com/a-critical-look-at-trigger-pull/ http://www.breachbangclear.com/a-critical-look-at-trigger-pull-2/ I should say I posted this thread because I'm trying to form my own opinion and a course of action, and Ayoob is someone who's opinion I respect. He's not the only opinion I respect. I didn't post it up to convince anyone of anything. Just opinions to consider or discard as you see fit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gleninjersey 2,139 Posted February 28, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong but if you've pulled your handgun to protect yourself what difference does it make how light the trigger is? If your pulling your gun you should be ready to use it. If you stab someone in self defense does it matter how sharp the knife was? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECsandstar 28 Posted February 28, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong but if you've pulled your handgun to protect yourself what difference does it make how light the trigger is? If your pulling your gun you should be ready to use it. If you stab someone in self defense does it matter how sharp the knife was? Sounds good to me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,777 Posted March 1, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong but if you've pulled your handgun to protect yourself what difference does it make how light the trigger is? If your pulling your gun you should be ready to use it. If you stab someone in self defense does it matter how sharp the knife was? How does the old saying go? If you're gonna pull it out, you should be prepared to use it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maintenanceguy 510 Posted March 1, 2015 There could also be liability with too heavy a trigger pull. NYPD seems to have a strong record of missing the bad guy and shooting bystanders. I've read that to prevent accidental discharges, NYPD has modified their duty weapons to have a 14lb trigger pull. This of course, makes it almost impossible to keep your sights on target when pulling the trigger. If all of this is actually true, it seems that a heavy trigger could lead to liability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 2, 2015 Show me where it's written that every gun gets tested for trigger and/or reliability. Also the entire premise is about Plastic Fantastics, aka safe-action pistolas. This thread suffers badly from one-dimensional thinking: No mention of revolvers and their single-action pull weights. No mention of 1911 or 2011 single-action pull weights. WHY is that? Does all of this mean that my Uberti Cap and Ball black powder revolver with its' out-of-the-box <2.5 pound Italian stock trigger is a verified unsafe Death Machine? And the same for my Ruger Bicentennial (made in 1976) .357 Super Blackhawk? And my K .22 Masterpiece? And my Model #29 .44 Magnum? And, and, and, and???? Where is this Unicorn of a measurement that's allegedly imposed upon all of these righteous SD shootings in the news? Or should we all stop and think: Most SD shoots are over in seconds, and held at close range. Most SD shoots are undertaken by folks with limited skills PLUS limited practice. Even most Cops only shoot TWICE a year, lol! Gun ownership is a RIGHT, so no need to demonstrate competency prior to holsterin'-up! (Yeah we all know to practice) The Public thinks guns can simply "go-off" by themselves. We Shootists call them ND's. When the SHTF, you and your ability fall to the level of training you practice. Taking all of the above into consideration, don't ya think that a Hired Speaker would spin a story to leave the gun alone and NOT modify it, simply so ya don't wet yer pants and shoot yerself in a gunfight? Just sayin'..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,259 Posted March 2, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong but if you've pulled your handgun to protect yourself what difference does it make how light the trigger is? If your pulling your gun you should be ready to use it. If you stab someone in self defense does it matter how sharp the knife was? And if you read the ayoob article, that lines up with waht he points to. The light trigger voided two people's "whoops it went off" defenses. It does not appear to have a good track record of invalidating justifiable lethal self defense. I've gone looking in the past, and came up with a few cases where the issue was brought up at trial but didn't go anywhere in terms of the end result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites