Scorpio64 5,155 Posted March 20, 2015 Your civil manner was in striking contrast to that of many of our 2A brethren,whose behavior I frankly found to be embarrassing. Their Tourettes-like outbursts did nothing to help the perception among many outside of our community of us as angry, knuckle-dragging savages. There was no way that a panel discussion like last night was going to solve anything, but it made for great entertainment. Passions run high in meetings like this. If it was an outburst from a parent who's kid got killed, there would be sympathy and and a lot of people saying noting while looking at the floor, but for gun owners trying to protect their rights, very little empathy. The people who run these things know how to push buttons, they count on there being at least a few pro 2A people that they can exploit to make an example of. If one cannot maintain their composure it's probably better for the cause if they stay home. Don't be a sucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted March 20, 2015 Passions run high in meetings like this. If it was an outburst from a parent who's kid got killed, there would be sympathy and and a lot of people saying noting while looking at the floor, but for gun owners trying to protect their rights, very little empathy. The people who run these things know how to push buttons, they count on there being at least a few pro 2A people that they can exploit to make an example of. If one cannot maintain their composure it's probably better for the cause if they stay home. Don't be a sucker. I must disagree. Granted 96.73% of individuals who attend these meetings have already made up their minds. But I think it would be useful to attend and ask, "who has committed the last xxxx% of gun murders in this state, and how am I a part of this?" It's a fair question that for which they will either make up a response ("NRA members") which is easy to counter, or evade. Keep pressing. "Who commits 96.73% of gun crimes in this state?" Gang members, career criminals, scumbags who have been paroled way too early after committing violent crimes. Individuals who, as the late great Bob Grant noted, have already "given notice to society that they are not fit to live among normal humans." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 20, 2015 There might have been more of us there than people realized. I sat in the back and took it all in without saying a word. Ogfarmer, was that you who gave that articulate discourse on why we should be allowed to have concealed carry? We met once, briefly, a couple of years ago, and I thought that might have been you. Your civil manner was in striking contrast to that of many of our 2A brethren, whose behavior I frankly found to be embarrassing. Their Tourettes-like outbursts did nothing to help the perception among many outside of our community of us as angry, knuckle-dragging savages. (Yes, I'm talking about Kaleda, for whom I had respect and admiration prior to this.) If there was some benefit to our cause of getting into a shouting match with the other side, it was lost on me. The rabbi on the panel was a voice of reason. On the other hand, Ms. Perlmutter explained to us why guns don't save lives, why they contribute to murders and suicides, why they would not protect women from domestic violence and home invasions, and on and on. I would have had more respect for her if she just went ahead and said that she did not think anyone should be allowed to own guns. The Everytown lawyer spent a lot of time explaining about how restrictions on the Second Amendment have a long and strong history. He pointed out that the debate on restrictions has intensified in the last 40 years, but did not speculate on why that might be. Could it be that defenders of 2A feel more and more threatened by ever-increasing attempts to deprive them of their rights? Mayor Fulop is clearly another government official who feels that private citizens cannot be trusted with guns. While I respect his service to our country in the military, I could not help but cringe when he started that familiar litany of how AR-15's are weapons of war that belong on the battlefields, not on our streets. Heaven help us if he becomes governor! At one point someone mentioned that at a prior panel, where the 2A people were being belligerent, Loretta Weinberg asked them to name one new gun law that they would be willing to accept. Her question would perhaps be valid if we had no other gun laws, but what she was really asking was what further restriction we would be willing to accept. And I think that is the crux of the issue, that 2A supporters feel that every tragic incident is exploited to further curtail their rights. There was no way that a panel discussion like last night was going to solve anything, but it made for great entertainment. "The rabbi on the panel was a voice of reason" --Don't be so sure. He strikes me as more of a Trojan Horse. "Could it be that defenders of 2A feel more and more threatened by ever-increasing attempts to deprive them of their rights?" - I would say so. "Heaven help us if he becomes governor!" - He will becuase as vocal as gun owners are online they do little at the voting booth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silence Dogood 468 Posted March 21, 2015 "Name one new gun law you would be willing to accept." - A law repealing the 'justifiable need' provision as unConstitutional. Got to be quick with responses Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,127 Posted March 21, 2015 "Name one new gun law you would be willing to accept." - A law repealing the 'justifiable need' provision as unConstitutional. Got to be quick with responses Good one! This did not happen on Thursday night, but was quoted from a prior discussion. Indeed, it would be incredible if we could get some new gun laws passed in NJ to move things in our favor for a change. Seems like we're always playing defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 21, 2015 Good one! This did not happen on Thursday night, but was quoted from a prior discussion. Indeed, it would be incredible if we could get some new gun laws passed in NJ to move things in our favor for a change. Seems like we're always playing defense. We're always on the defensive because many gun owners of previous and current generations allowed these laws to be enacted and didn't vote or recalled those that enacted them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silence Dogood 468 Posted March 21, 2015 We're always on the defensive because many gun owners of previous and current generations allowed these laws to be enacted and didn't vote or recalled those that enacted them. If we can't outsmart Loretta Weinberg and Mandy Perlmutter we deserve what we get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 21, 2015 If we can't outsmart Loretta Weinberg and Mandy Perlmutter we deserve what we get. Agreed, it's also not a matter of "outsmarting them". It's a matter of playing fire with fire. If they are holding these so called "discussion groups" then we should too. We've outsmarted Weinberg many times and shown her to be a fool. However, beyond that we do nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,877 Posted March 21, 2015 If they are holding these so called "discussion groups" then we should too. You know that's an interesting point. Aside from NJ2AS, ANJRPC or other similar group/club meetings, I can't think of a single 'gun violence' forum I've seen or heard of hosted by PRO gun people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 21, 2015 You know that's an interesting point. Aside from NJ2AS, ANJRPC or other similar group/club meetings, I can't think of a single 'gun violence' forum I've seen or heard of hosted by PRO gun people. There was one hosted awhile back in Newark. I want to bring this right into the Anti's backyards. I want all those anti-2a folks that were at ths past discussion forum come to our forum and see what there really is out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djg0770 481 Posted March 21, 2015 You know that's an interesting point. Aside from NJ2AS, ANJRPC or other similar group/club meetings, I can't think of a single 'gun violence' forum I've seen or heard of hosted by PRO gun people. That's the deal there - setup a "panel discussion", load it with Pro-2A people, get a state politician who is pro-2a, a sheriff, etc and load the discussion in the other direction and you will see that the anti-2a will come out and be as "nasty and aghast" as we are at their panel discussions... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 22, 2015 That's the deal there - setup a "panel discussion", load it with Pro-2A people, get a state politician who is pro-2a, a sheriff, etc and load the discussion in the other direction and you will see that the anti-2a will come out and be as "nasty and aghast" as we are at their panel discussions... This is a gret idea. Now we need to follow through with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,877 Posted March 22, 2015 Alex Roubian was excellent. My compliments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silence Dogood 468 Posted March 23, 2015 Well done! I asked Mandy P. not too long ago why she wouldn't sit down to discuss with NJ2AS and she commented on "all the hateful things she's been called" etc. Not sure I believe her but I doubt she'd do it. She was introduced as "a lawyer" but is not admitted to practice in New Jersey. Hmmm ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taipan 0 Posted March 23, 2015 You know that's an interesting point. Aside from NJ2AS, ANJRPC or other similar group/club meetings, I can't think of a single 'gun violence' forum I've seen or heard of hosted by PRO gun people. www.NJGunSense.com Not a forum, but a website. It's a work in progress. Comments? Suggestions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 23, 2015 www.NJGunSense.com Not a forum, but a website. It's a work in progress. Comments? Suggestions? We need to start speaking out publicly and educating the public about NJ and firearms in general. The reason the Everytown folks gain ground is because we are not very vocal unless we are on the defensive and because we talk (and argue) amounts each. We need to take the lead and begin education people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silence Dogood 468 Posted March 23, 2015 Here's the whole thing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4rMPq38OEQ I highly recommend listening to the woman who spoke just after 1:45:15 Clip: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Norseman 2 Posted March 23, 2015 Lmao ...liar liar hahahaha that's hysterical Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeanderingCuban 8 Posted March 24, 2015 Lmao ...liar liar hahahaha that's hysterical Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The problem is the liar's are making more progress than we are because they hold public meets to spread their lies. We have to do the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,138 Posted March 24, 2015 thanx for posting the video- yes just watched it. was too sick to get to it that night. it is indeed very frustrating to sit thru some of the malarky.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted March 25, 2015 www.NJGunSense.com Not a forum, but a website. It's a work in progress. Comments? Suggestions? This is damn good. Something else I've been thinking about is that when we speak up at these symposiums it always seems like we are not even equipped to answer the same questions they ask all the time and it makes us look bad. So we should start compiling: Q: "is there not one single sensible gun law you would accept?" A: "yes of course there is. How about a law that stops gun violence against a man from Hoboken shot in front of his wife while Christmas shopping at the short hills mall. What gun law do you propose that stops that gun violence?" Q: "isn't background checks for all gun sales just a common sense thing to do?" A: "all people in NJ follow the current laws that says that you must be an eligible person (not a felon, not have a restraining order etc) to buy a gun even in a private transaction. The only way a "bad guy" gets a gun is if another criminal sells it to him. So what law have you proposed that keeps a criminal from buying a gun?" See the key here is they call it gun VIOLENCE, we call it gun CONTROL. The only way we come across better in these symposiums is to use their language. "Of course we stand in agreement with you to stop gun violence". ( now tell me again how this law does that?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gleninjersey 2,141 Posted March 27, 2015 "The rabbi on the panel was a voice of reason" --Don't be so sure. He strikes me as more of a Trojan Horse. If it is the same rabbi as the discussion I went to last year in Princeton then he was infeed reasonable. The rabbi last year was supporting smart gun technology BUT he DID NOT think the government should force it on purchasers/be the only option. He wanted it as an option. I asked a question directed at "smart gun technology". The other panelists, of course, weren't too happy about him saying it. I whole heartedly agree that shouting down / at the panelists garners our side no good publicity or wins over anyone that may be on the fence. If anything it plays right in to the antis hands. At the "discussion" in Princeton ladt year there were several facts that were just wrong. I stayed behind to see if I could talk to anyone. I spoke to one attendee who didn't realize that some of what they had been told was incorrect. We had a nice chat. I then spoke with the minister who had been on the panel. I felt he had misrepresented something and politely told him I thought that he may be misleading the attendees. Perhaps accidently. I had a civil discussion with him as well. Both commented how I wasn't a "typical gun nut". We need to be the opposite of their perceived "gun nuts". We need to demonstrate that we are intelligent, articulate, well spoken individuals who come to the conversation with logic and facts. That's one more way we make people see the validity of what we are saying. We HAVE the facts but if it's delivered in the wrong manner it doesm't matter. It will just reinforce their sterotype. With that said, we DO need to have our own discussions. Honest discussions where we invite the other side. They won't come. We can have a discussion aimed at first time purchasers or those who hace thought about purchasing. We could explain the process and dispell any incorrect beliefs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silence Dogood 468 Posted March 31, 2015 When the out-of-staters find out that you can do hard time in NJ for stopping to pee on the way to the range, they're usually flabbergasted. More awareness of how screwed up things already ARE would help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
