Best choice for HD ammo (.223/5.56)

[SL8R 1]

I've been looking into different types of AR ammo recently to find out what would be the best choice for home defense, but also priced reasonably enough to actually shoot from time to time.  Currently I have some Federal M855 green tips, which I've recently learned are less than ideal indoors.   I also have some Wolf Gold .223, which I'm told is similar, if not identical, to M193.  I'm thinking a non-FMJ type ammo would be better if I ever have to use it inside my own home.

 

I started researching the Hornady V-max bullets and basically trying to find a decently priced round with a polymer tip.  I just ordered some of the Federal Grey Tip at PSA (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/4550/) as it was on sale, and I was able to get 280 rounds for .44 cents/round shipped.  I did a quick Google search and people seem to like them for target practice, I'm wondering how they would do in a HD scenario. Obviously I'm going to have to see how well it shoots once it gets here, but chances are it'll be more accurate than I am.  My thoughts are that these would be my best choice for HD of the three I'll have.  

 

Is this logic sound, and does anyone have experience with Federal grey tip?  

[rightisright 3]

Wolf Gold is not identical to M193.  It's loaded to a lower pressure... hence the .223 moniker.  That said, it is excellent ammo. 

 

You really don't need to worry about ammo "accuracy" in an HD scenario.  Yes, you have to be on target... but a gun/round that shoots a crappy 10 MOA is only going to be 1" off point of aim at 30 feet.  Of course, this is over-simplifying the matter.  The point is, you don't need ammo that shoots sub-MOA for HD.

[MidwestPX 172]

If they behave like other varmint bullets (which they should since the VMAX is designed for varmints and small game), less than ideal.  Such bullets don't achieve much for penetration before they tear themselves apart.  Here's a rather lengthy post from DocGKR, a terminal ballistics expert:

 

 

 

Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in 5.56 mm/.223:

 

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For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. Other acceptable 5.56 mm loadings for 1/9 twist barrels include the Speer 55 and 62 gr Gold Dot JSP's; the Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1) is also a potential option. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr bonded JSP, .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), and the .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also good choice, but usually requires a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Speer 55 gr Gold Dot, or Fed 55 gr TSX. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM.

 

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers.

 

For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels, one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings are a good choice: the Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N) using the OTM bullet w/cannelure, Nosler 77 gr OTM, or the Sierra 77 gr Match King OTM (Mk262 Mod1).

 

Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

 

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.

 

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

 

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S. Also be cautions of leaving a round in a very hot chamber; besides the obvious danger of a cook-off, the powder can also be damaged by the heat, leading to dramatically increased pressures when the round is eventually fired.

 

A large SWAT team in this area had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. When Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.

 

However, despite what appeared to be good primer strikes, two problems were discovered. First, when accurately measured, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The failed round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression. Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!

 

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Many LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Winchester 64 gr JSP (it has been on the state contract for very low cost), and similar Fed 64 gr JSP TRU load (223L)--all have worked well in actual officer involved shootings against unobstructed targets. However in the wake of the serious terminal performance failures by non-bonded .223 64 gr JSP's due to inadequate penetration into the criminal's Toyota Tundra truck in the July 2010 CHP OIS incident in Oakland, quite a few agencies here have been switching to general issue of Barrier Blind loads like the 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot loads, along with the 55 & 62 gr TBBC loads that previously saw more limited use.

 

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. Despite the ballistic compromise, for LE urban work with lots of entries, the 10.5-11.5” BCM, Colt, DD, LMT Mk18/Commando style weapons w/Aimpoint RDS's are the best weapon types for this mission. For GP LE Patrol use, properly built AR15's like the 14.5-16” BCM, Colt, DD, or LMT carbines with Aimpoint RDS's and 3x magnifiers in quick detach flip mounts like the LaRue LT649 are superb choices (quality variable optics like a S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot, NF 1.1-4x, or Trijicon 1-4x are also good options) -- pick the right tool for the job.

[High Exposure 5,662]

I use the Federal .223 64 gr TRU JSP. I am not worried about barrier blind performance in an HD rifle. I am not shooting in and around cars, so I don't need it want the extra penetration or mass retention.

[fishnut 2,358]

I use Winchester 64g powerpoint tips loaded in .223 for my HD ammo.

[mipafox 438]

I use the Federal .223 64 gr TRU JSP. I am not worried about barrier blind performance in an HD rifle. I am not shooting in and around cars, so I don't need it want the extra penetration or mass retention.

^That works.

 

75 grain (not lighter) Hornady TAP works better, or TAP FPD if you can't find the 5.56 TAP.

[High Exposure 5,662]

I would like the 75gr stuff, especially for our SBRs, but I've found the 64gr offerings to be a nice compromise amongst everything we have, from 11.5"-18" guns. It works great in all the testing we done and AAR's I've been able to get my hands on.

 

It starts to get too complicated ordering 3 different duty loads and keeping track of who has what. Not to mention trying to explain why different guys had different rounds in the event of a shooting (God forbid).

[mipafox 438]

It's technical minutiae at that point. Both work and you are not running into situations where you are disadvantaged and the difference in the shape of a single hole is going to do it. For home defense (often one unarmored good guy) I want the best, but the best is still only marginally better when it comes down to it. Soft points actually upset an inch sooner and there is a chance (if you care/believe) of getting hydrostatic shock to the spine from the sternum/ribcage.

 

So if somebody doesn't return a library book for, say, 6 months, I assume you wear hearing protection when you kick in the door and start firing off those SBRs? I'm guessing electronic?

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

I use the Federal .223 64 gr TRU JSP....

 

Another vote for .223 Powerpoints or JSP from me/

 

Read:

 

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html

 

especially the table at the bottom of this page:

 

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

[n4p226r 105]

this is an interesting thread.  I've read really good things about the mk262 and would like to pick some up.  i found a good deal on the 62 or 64 gr (can't remember) speer gold dots so i've actually have about 1k of them.  has anyone read about how well they work?

[High Exposure 5,662]

It's technical minutiae at that point. Both work and you are not running into situations where you are disadvantaged and the difference in the shape of a single hole is going to do it. For home defense (often one unarmored good guy) I want the best, but the best is still only marginally better when it comes down to it. Soft points actually upset an inch sooner and there is a chance (if you care/believe) of getting hydrostatic shock to the spine from the sternum/ribcage.

So if somebody doesn't return a library book for, say, 6 months, I assume you wear hearing protection when you kick in the door and start firing off those SBRs? I'm guessing electronic?

  

 

Sordin/MSA Supreme Pro X that are plugged into our radios. They work well.

 

 

this is an interesting thread.  I've read really good things about the mk262 and would like to pick some up.  i found a good deal on the 62 or 64 gr (can't remember) speer gold dots so i've actually have about 1k of them.  has anyone read about how well they work?

They work well. Used to use them befores switching to the Federal. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the same load in different boxes.

 

I have about 3k of them stashed.

[Barms 98]

Sordin/MSA Supreme Pro X that are plugged into our radios. They work well.

 

Have we ever done a thread about "quieter" rounds for HD? I mean is there even ammo made to try to be quieter?

[High Exposure 5,662]

As fR as I know, there is nothing out there that will be "hearing safe" without some kind of suppressor. And on SBRs, even a can isn't enough.

 

Maybe someone else has an idea......

 

Maybe if you wanted to use .22 shorts or something for self defense, but I don't think that is such a great idea.

 

If you ever have to shoot in defense of your life, you will likely experience auditory exclusion (as well as a host of other physiological and psychological factors - tunnel vision, time dilation, extreme attention to visual detail, "magnified" vision) making you not even hear the shots.

 

I had a buddy in a shootout in New Brunswick. He never heard any of his or his partners shots. He only heard the first incoming round. He also couldn't figure out why someone was throwing beer cans at him. He realized a few "cans" in that the beer cans said .40 S&W on them and there were actually his partners brass flying in front of his face.

 

You best bet in this lousy state is to keep a set of electronic ear pro near your HD gun, if you are worried about it.

[Dan 177]

I keep Hornady v-max loaded in my AR HD rifle. I don't want a barrier blind round for HD. I'm not going to be engaging targets behind glass, car doors, or walls. I'm keeping them out of the room that my family and myself are in.

 

55/60gr would be best for most barrel twist rates available in AR's.

[NickySantoro 211]

Best HD/SD round? No idea. I'll let the armchair Rambos argue that one to death. I have LC M193 loaded. I've seen the results in the real world, not denim and gel, both up close and at distance, and am confident in its effectiveness.

FWIW

YMMV

[Barms 98]

If you ever have to shoot in defense of your life, you will likely experience auditory exclusion (as well as a host of other physiological and psychological factors - tunnel vision, time dilation, extreme attention to visual detail, "magnified" vision) making you not even hear the shots.

 

Yeah i get the mental aspect in the heat if the moment "I didn't even hear the rounds". But the damage to your ears is still there nevertheless.

 

I'm not advocating grabbing the muffs in the split second your life depends on it. What I was asking was not every situation where you could go for your gun at home would be a split second decision. Could be anything where you could have more time. Civil unrest, maybe something bad going down at the neighbors house. A threatening person on your lawn. Etc

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Federal premium tru urban rifle hollowpoint

 

Hornady zombie

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

I've got a 'mini bug-out-bag' with electronic ear pro, goggles and loaded mags in panic grabbing distance of my HD firearm.

[silverado427 10,682]

Where are you guys getting  HD ammo from ?

[Dan 177]

Where are you guys getting  HD ammo from ?

 

I load my own.

[MidwestPX 172]

Where are you guys getting  HD ammo from ?

 

SGAmmo.com, Ammunitiontogo.com and...

I load my own.

This.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Hornady zombie

 

Yup - I have Z-Max loaded in my defense mags.  Looking to get some Winchester Ranger also...

[mipafox 438]

Interesting, thanks for the tip HE!

[Krdshrk 3,877]

After watching this video I want some MK262...

 

https://www.full30.com/video/071df094616cf8c4e2c1bbcd6be59728

 

http://www.outdoorhub.com/reviews/2014/06/19/imi-razor-core-77-grain-otm-5-56x45mm-ammo/

 

From Wideners:

 

https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100001636&dir=

Anyone wanna split a case?  I think my wife would kill me if I got 500 more rounds of 5.56