Second Amendment Preservation and Protection Act (SAPPA)

[JohnnyB 4,325]

Thanks Dwight for keeping us up to date!

[SAPPA 74]

Hi All,

Nick will be making a follow up call to the Chief Judge on Monday morning.

I will post any information we get from that call and fill you in on the first call he made earlier this week.

 

Also, as you know we expect there to be a time delay after the ruling, whether we win or lose the case it will be headed to the 3rd Circuit.

 

In the meantime I thought some of you might be interested in seeing the Federal legislation we are working to get sponsored in either the House or the US Senate.  

 

Today Donald Trump released a position paper on the Second Amendment.  It's powerful and terrific.  I am most pleasantly surprised at the strength of his position.  He mentioned the revamping of the background check system.  Our proposed bill does that and more.   I sent him a link to it, but the chances of his people even seeing it are quite small.

 

Anyhow, if you take a minute and read the proposal and you like it or have comments on it, let us know.  

 

And of course if you do like it and want to help get this out to Congressmen and Senators, please have at it.

 

Here is a link to the National Criminal Registry Act   :  http://www.tpath.org/ncra-documents.html

I can be downloaded in PDF .

 

Until Monday evening, take care.  Karen, Nick and I hope you all had a great and safe Thanksgiving.

Dwight

[n4p226r 105]

I can't support any bill that lists the terrorist watch list as a disqualifying factor or requires background checks for ammo purchases. That bill seems worse to me than the current system.

[oldguysrule649 397]

Dwight, I appreciate your efforts. However I agree with n4p226r. I had the same two concerns when I read it as well.

[revenger 473]

The section about being removed from the list must be much more specific and extremely detailed.  There MUST be a exact time written into the law as to when this board meets and there MUST be an exact method and place defined as to where and how this will take place, The board will be given timeline such as 5 business days to resolve the matter and the 5 days will really mean 5 days,  not a "NJ" 5 days if you know what I mean.  We all know very well how laws are interpreted by "politicians" especially us living in NJ where a phrase as simple as "shall not be infringed" is interpreted.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             If the method to be removed is left to each individual state than we know that NJ will craft an impossible method.       The process to be removed Must be as simple an avenue as possible for the person requesting to do so,   That would mean no attorney should be required.   The law will have to explain EXACTLY why you are on the list which includes any legal documentation as to why.   With identity theft so prevalent today you might find yourself on this list so being removed can be as simple as telling this board that " That's not me,  I have never been to Chicago"   and that would have to be an acceptable reason to be removed.   

There should also be absolutely no "lowering of the bar" as we all know NJ loves doing this,  Question 26 is a perfect example of this.   If you allow politicians to amend this law then soon many medical conditions might be added such as diabetes, wearing corrective lenses or acid reflux,   Don't laugh if Hillary gets elected you will see what I mean.

 

I have only read this proposed law once but what I would like to see in it since it covers everything in a typical background check is a section that supersedes all current "permitting schemes" so if you pass this check you can make your purchase NATIONWIDE (handgun-long gun) and if you choose to voluntarily register it in your home state feel free to do so.  This would lift a heavy financial burden off most of the states and states such as ours would no longer need to dedicate a sworn officer to perform a task a clerk can perform.     I know a section like this would appeal to us who are behind enemy lines and most of the free states would probably not go for it. 

 

I guess my rant breaks down to:    The law must be written with exact details with absolutely no wiggle room for the anti-americans who will stop at nothing to take our rights away. 

[45Doll 5,877]

I guess my rant breaks down to:    The law must be written with exact details with absolutely no wiggle room for the anti-americans who will stop at nothing to take our rights away. 

I completely agree with the point of your argument.

We also have to consider that currently courts interpret totally specific language however they like and without redress. So once you create a law that's open to interpretation.... good luck.

"Within 30 days of application..." means thirty days from when the state figures it's ready.

"Within 30 days of the election..." means make changes to the ballot anytime if there's no electable Democrat candidate.(Torricelli)

And so on.

[n4p226r 105]

The section about being removed from the list must be much more specific and extremely detailed. There MUST be a exact time written into the law as to when this board meets and there MUST be an exact method and place defined as to where and how this will take place, The board will be given timeline such as 5 business days to resolve the matter and the 5 days will really mean 5 days, not a "NJ" 5 days if you know what I mean. We all know very well how laws are interpreted by "politicians" especially us living in NJ where a phrase as simple as "shall not be infringed" is interpreted. If the method to be removed is left to each individual state than we know that NJ will craft an impossible method. The process to be removed Must be as simple an avenue as possible for the person requesting to do so, That would mean no attorney should be required. The law will have to explain EXACTLY why you are on the list which includes any legal documentation as to why. With identity theft so prevalent today you might find yourself on this list so being removed can be as simple as telling this board that " That's not me, I have never been to Chicago" and that would have to be an acceptable reason to be removed.

There should also be absolutely no "lowering of the bar" as we all know NJ loves doing this, Question 26 is a perfect example of this. If you allow politicians to amend this law then soon many medical conditions might be added such as diabetes, wearing corrective lenses or acid reflux, Don't laugh if Hillary gets elected you will see what I mean.

 

I have only read this proposed law once but what I would like to see in it since it covers everything in a typical background check is a section that supersedes all current "permitting schemes" so if you pass this check you can make your purchase NATIONWIDE (handgun-long gun) and if you choose to voluntarily register it in your home state feel free to do so. This would lift a heavy financial burden off most of the states and states such as ours would no longer need to dedicate a sworn officer to perform a task a clerk can perform. I know a section like this would appeal to us who are behind enemy lines and most of the free states would probably not go for it.

 

I guess my rant breaks down to: The law must be written with exact details with absolutely no wiggle room for the anti-americans who will stop at nothing to take our rights away.

I wouldn't even support that. If you are on any disqualifying list and you haven't been found guilty of a crime BEFORE making it on the list, then due process wasn't given. You can't deny someone a civil right for 5 days and make them jump through hoops because there isn't enough evidence to lock those same people up

[A-Tech 8]

I wouldn't even support that. If you are on any disqualifying list and you haven't been found guilty of a crime BEFORE making it on the list, then due process wasn't given. You can't deny someone a civil right for 5 days and make them jump through hoops because there isn't enough evidence to lock those same people up

This. Due process is another one of those pesky rights.

[SAPPA 74]

Well, as they say in show business, which I am of course not any part of, "this is a tough crowd".

 

Okay, so rather than go over one by one the many and varied ideas and contentions presented by you guys I have decided to let you all have at it for awhile.  But in the meantime here are a few facts and reasons for the implementation of the NCRA (National Criminal Registry Act)

 

1. No system where any government, federal, state or local which interferes with our rights or invades our privacy, is a good one.

 

2. The system in place now, at least here in NJ and many other states, does all of that in spades.

 

3. The system in place now keeps information on gun owners by means invading every orifice of our lives.

 

4. The NCRA will not store information on any but the criminals, the insane and terrorists.

 

5. The NCRA will end the handgun permit policy as well as the ridiculous one gun limit.

 

6. Everyone in their right mind knows that it is impossible to stop bad people from doing bad things with firearms. The NCRA will be more effective at that than the system in place now and it will do it by tracking bad guys, not good guys.

 

7. It is easy and quite realistic to fret about and worry about whom and how they are put on the terrorist watch list because this government as it stands now and for a big part as it has always stood, can't be trusted.  But we need to face reality. The reality that there are bad people and we as individuals do not have the capacity to find and identity them. The states as of now report crimes which have been finalized tot he Federal Government.  They do this each month.  The NCRA would require that they also report names of convicted felons, in categories which will need to be detailed, to the NCR System.  Only if an appeal is won by an individual will his name be removed from the system.

 

8. The NCRA gives anyone the chance to challenge  why they are on this list, for any of the three reasons.  That is more than honest citizens have now with the intrusive and secret data gathering system.

 

9. The NCRA calls for a panel equally balanced between the parties.  Remember, just as all Republicans are not gun supporters there are some Democrats who are. It would not be naive to think this system could or would be fair to anyone whom challenges his status in it.

 

10. The gun grabbers are made up of two groups.  The brainwashers (progressive government people) and the brainwashed (fools who have been bred to fear all firearms).   It would be virtually impossible to return to the days when anyone could carry a weapon or buy a weapon.  It must be admitted to that some sort of system to prevent dangerous people from buying guns from dealers is needed.  The NCRA does that by tracking bad guys and leaves you and your privacy alone.

 

11. The NCRA will do away with waiting periods. Instantly the system will clear a purchase if the buyer is not in the system.

 

12. As we said earlier, the NCRA that we produced was done with much thought and that it, at this point is only that, a concept.  So many very intricate details need to be ironed out before an actual bill could be voted on. 

 

13. For anyone to say they wouldn't support this bill, out of hand,  for one reason or another, that person will have decided that the system we have now is okay with them.  To end the system in place now, we need a viable alternative that will not give the gun grabbers ammunition to stop it.  For sure they will contest anything that allows honest people to purchase firearms and to do so without being under their control. But there will be no way for them to say that having a list of bad guys is not better than investigating every American citizen who wants to own a weapon.

 

14. So if you like what you have now, if we do nothing, you can keep it.

 

15.However, if you think that it has some merit, draw up your own bill and send it to us. We will be ready to put all the information we get together into a new bill.

 

But, in the meantime I find it difficult to believe that it would be a bad thing to get this concept into the public's eye as well as the politicians who would need to sponsor and support it.  We know the "devil is in the detail" but we also know the devil in this current system plans to do nothing but grow in strength. 

 

Okay, get your bills to me, but understand if you water it down too much, it will die a quiet death.  

 

One of the many reason why we have a need to defend ourselves with firearms is because there are dangerous people living amongst us.  Every honest American should be on board with a system that  will do as much as it can, under the guidance of the Constitution, to prevent bad guys from arming themselves via the legal gun dealers and traders. 

 

Warm regards to you all,

Dwight

[jackandjill 683]

How about we open a separate thread on NCRA as many here would have ideas, contentions and concerns ? Otherwise, NCRA discussion will take over the original purpose of this thread. 

[kc17 622]

Agreed. Let's keep this thread with updates from Nick via Dwight.

[mipafox 438]

Why just deny you the right to own guns if some nameless bureaucrat somewhere, that you may not enjoy the right to "confront the witness against you?"

 

If somebody in government says you are a potential terrorist, wouldn't it be safer to send you to a Gulag?

 

Good grief. One of these days we are going to suddenly realize that THESE people were the ones to worry about, not the gun grabbers.

[1LtCAP 4,263]

problem with suddenly finding yourself on the ncra "list", then having to challenge it is that in the meantime you're denied your right without ever having done anything wrong. just think........chances are very good that every one of us on this forum or in any 2a group are on a "list" somewhere.

[jackandjill 683]

^^^ God bless you, Nick. Not many see the BS through. 

[njpilot 671]

 

The whole idea *OF* a list is sickening to me.

 

As a person who lost family on 9-11 we have allowed that day to completely take over and run our lives, they have won more on that day that we can care to believe or want to acknowledge.

 

We have given up so many precious liberties, so many encroachments in the name of safety and security, that it makes my skin crawl.

 

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. - Patrick Henry"

 

 

+1

[SAPPA 74]

My gosh people,

Don't you understand that if you own a gun, you are already on a list?

Don't you understand that every time you file for a permit, your privacy is invaded and recorded?

The NCRA will do away with that. All of it.

 

No one will be on the list that sickens some of you unless you have been convicted of a felony or adjudicated to be  mentally unstable.

 

Can't you understand that the government is tracking you now and this bill could end them tracking you and just track the bad guys?

 

It is no more complicated or sickening than that.  

I'll have nothing else to say in this.  I find it hard to believe some of you can't see a healthy tree through the foggy forest of fear. 

 

Dwight

[1LtCAP 4,263]

do other states that have less onerous laws than pfrnj have that ncra list?

 

 edited, 'cause when i re-read, it came off as snippy.

 

 sorry if i came off snippy. it wasn't meant to. the thing is that there is no need for lists in order to change our laws. all that needs to happen is we need to move nj into the 21st century and do the same as most other states. phone call to nics, approval, and you're done.

 

 that all said, i will re-iterate that i  really DO appreciate everything you guys are doing.

[n4p226r 105]

My gosh people,

Don't you understand that if you own a gun, you are already on a list?

Don't you understand that every time you file for a permit, your privacy is invaded and recorded?

The NCRA will do away with that. All of it.

 

No one will be on the list that sickens some of you unless you have been convicted of a felony or adjudicated to be mentally unstable.

 

Can't you understand that the government is tracking you now and this bill could end them tracking you and just track the bad guys?

 

It is no more complicated or sickening than that.

I'll have nothing else to say in this. I find it hard to believe some of you can't see a healthy tree through the foggy forest of fear.

 

Dwight

what does any of that have to do with your support of including the terrorist watch list in your information put into this new criminal database? Or your ammo purchase background checks? Like I said previously, I feel the bill is worse than the current scenario. You can push it all you want, that's your choice. But don't say your name will only be on a list if you are a criminal when thousands of non-criminals names are already on the terrorist watch list.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

In support of Dwight, this is 2015!  We have more anti 2A zealots than pro 2A ones including 99% of the media! We have to be realistic!

If the guy next door to me is a convicted felon or a psycho who is a danger to me and my community, should he be able to go buy a gun,

hell no! His name should be  AND IS NOW on a list of prohibited persons!

 

It's great to say "The Second Amendment applies to all the people and the government shall not infringe" but do you really want Hannibal Lecter to

have those rights blindly handed to him if he lived in your neighborhood???  We are already on more government lists than we dare to dream exist!

In these times of terrorists and wacko's do you really expect the government to admit they were wrong, destroy their lists and give us all our 2A rights as though it were 1776 again!

It is not going to happen!!! There is always some compromise whether we like it or not!

 

The problem is;

 

1) Who decides the guidelines for the list Dwight speaks of?

2) Will Patriotism become a crime and get your name on the list?

3) If you protested in front of Sweeney's house, is your name now on the list?

4) Will practicing your 1st Amendment rights get you on the list?

 

If I thought the government was capable of being fair, even handed and trustworthy, I would not have a problem with the list idea!

Unfortunately, given the reality of today, we must choose the lesser of two evils. We can all pound our chests and cry out "ALL OR NOTHING!"

but we must realize it will never happen! No matter what happens, the lists are there and it you bought a gun in NJ you are most likely on the list.

If you belong to the NRA or NJ2AS or any other pro-2A group, or post your feelings on this forum, you are probably on some kind of list as a subversive!

 

Big brother is here to stay as are ALL of the lists!!! Nothing we do will change that! If you seriously think you can change that fact, you will be on yet another list!

I do NOT support yet another list but the fact is they are already here, we are already on them and I want the right to carry in NJ and I want national reciprocity!

We are all Americans and as "Law Abiding Americans" we should have the right to defend ourselves and our families EVERYWHERE!!!

 

There is already a terrorist watch list! You can be against it all you want but do you really think it will just go away! I agree with an instant background check for gun

purchases but Not for ammo purchases!

[n4p226r 105]

It's simple. Remove the terrorist watch list language and the ammo purchasing requirements and you fix the issues. It's quite simple to just say if you are CONVICTED of a crime (that would be a valid reason to lose your rights) or have been INVOLUNTARILY committed to a mental institution, you get added to the list. If you get the record expunged or get cleared by a doctor that you aren't a threat to yourself or others you get taken off the list. Why give any more than that?

[JohnnyB 4,325]

what does any of that have to do with your support of including the terrorist watch list in your information put into this new criminal database? Or your ammo purchase background checks? Like I said previously, I feel the bill is worse than the current scenario. You can push it all you want, that's your choice. But don't say your name will only be on a list if you are a criminal when thousands of non-criminals names are already on the terrorist watch list.

Given the terrorist watch list we have, fair or not, if your name is on that list, could you pass a NICs check now?

[n4p226r 105]

Given the terrorist watch list we have, fair or not, if your name is on that list, could you pass a NICs check now?

Yes. If there wasn't another disqualifying reason.

[jackandjill 683]

Everyone is on some list somewhere.. but when those lists are formalized, agreed and enforced, thats when problems start. 

 

We already have a list that tracks people who are not eligible to purchase or own firearms.  People either end up on that list by mistake or sometimes denied without even being on that list.  There is a guy around these forums who couldn't buy firearm in NJ and still waiting to hear from "authorities". So much for the "fair" process.  If this was his first firearms for self protection at home and (god forbid) something happens, who will take responsibility ?

 

When "Brady Act" went live, everyone was told exactly what we are discussing here.. "We got to compromise", "There are safe guards", "There is due process", "Only criminals will be on that list" blah blah blah....  The folks who otherwise are law abiding citizens, passed background checks, got training, paid taxes - ends up on that list because NJ decides their mistaken carry in NJ qualifies them as "criminals"... The individuals now are forever stripped off their 2A rights EVERYWHERE in the country.  How is that for fairness ? 

 

Lets take "No Fly List".  Same story. National Security, Terrorists etc. Due process is supposedly afforded and no one supposed to get on that list unless there is compelling reason. Then a politician ends up on that list. A journalist. A regular Joe. Tom, Dick and Harry are on that list. How do they get off ? No one can tell because "its national security" matter.  In the meantime, people lose their jobs, lost business due to travel restrictions.  So much for "liberty and pursuit of happiness". 

 

Show me ONE list thats not abused, then I will show you 100 thats abused beyond reproach. Those people should be ashamed of themselves for running freedom and country into the ground. Yet, they claim themselves to be protectors from "Terrorists"... 

 

 

BTW, the definition of "Criminal" has been so diluted that its a wonder how anyone can even own a firearm anymore.  In an ideal world, a Criminal should either be dead (Capital Punishment) or be ward of the State in Prison.  The laws are made nilly willy and so ridiculously that they qualify majority of the population as Criminals.

 

Did you know that a "disorderly conduct" can get one onto that existing "criminal" list. When did a guy yelling BS on the street be considered so dangerous as to deny 2A rights ?  

[n4p226r 105]

Everyone is one some list somewhere.. but when those lists are formalized, agreed and enforced, thats when problems start.

 

We already have a list that tracks people who are not eligible to purchase or own firearms. Even then people either end up on that list by mistake or sometimes denied without even being on that list. There is a guy around these forums who couldn't buy firearm in NJ and still waiting to hear from "authorities". So much for the "fair" process.

 

When "Brady Act" went live, everyone was told exactly what we are discussing here.. "We got to compromise", "There are safe guards", "There is due process", "Only criminals will be on that list" blah blah blah.... The folks who otherwise are law abiding citizens, passed background checks, got training, paid taxes - ends up on that list because NJ decides their mistaken carry in NJ qualifies them as "criminals"... The individuals now are forever stripped off their 2A rights EVERYWHERE in the country. How is that fairness ?

 

Lets take "No Fly List". Same story. National Security, Terrorists etc. Due process is supposedly afforded and no one supposed to get on that list unless there is compelling reason. Then a politician ends up on that list. A journalist. A regular Joe. Tom, Dick and Harry are on that list. How do they get off ? No one can tell because "its national security" matter.

 

Show me ONE list thats not abused, then I will show you 100 thats abused beyond imagination. Those people should be ashamed of themselves for running freedom and country into the ground. Yet, they claim themselves to be protectors from "Terrorists"...

I'm not a counterterrorism expert, but I do watch Homeland on showtime. Here's how I'm guessing it happens. The FBI has people looking for terrorist inside the country. Say a guy has a valid reason to be looked into. Let's assume he is a Pakistani born American that traveled to Yemen a few years back. He went to parts known to sponsor terrorist activity. He didn't do anything illegal, but the FBI wants to get more info on him. They add his name to the list. Every day he goes to the mosque. Tuesdays however he stops at a local 7-11 for a fizzy bubbly on the way too and from the mosque. The Indian guy that runs the 7-11 is very chatty, so the guy gets stuck in there for 10 mins each time. The FBI is following this guy, and two 10 minute stops each Tuesday seems like more than a fizzy bubbly stop so the clerk gets added to a list. The whole time they were actually talking about the cricket game that airs Monday night but who knew.

 

The thing is, the government doesn't want you to know who is on the list, they don't want you to know how you got on, and there is no way to take you off. Since they can't gather all info on everyone they prioritize what they can, some people get added to the list and that is the extent of it.

 

The truth is, the government should be keeping these lists. But they should be used for one thing only, a file system for the governments research on home grown terrorism. Anything else that brings these lists into the spotlight opens them up for criticism on something they weren't even created to support

 

At least that's my tin foil hat wearing idea of how the system works. And now. Thanks to this bill. The guy that likes Cricket and feeds his family by selling soft drinks can't buy a gun. He works the night shift and is robbed and killed. All he needed to do was take 3 days off of work to go to court and get it all taken care of. But he can't afford to do that.

[WP22 1,558]

Everyone is on some list somewhere.. but when those lists are formalized, agreed and enforced, thats when problems start. 

 

We already have a list that tracks people who are not eligible to purchase or own firearms.  People either end up on that list by mistake or sometimes denied without even being on that list.  There is a guy around these forums who couldn't buy firearm in NJ and still waiting to hear from "authorities". So much for the "fair" process.  If this was his first firearms for self protection at home and (god forbid) something happens, who will take responsibility ?

 

When "Brady Act" went live, everyone was told exactly what we are discussing here.. "We got to compromise", "There are safe guards", "There is due process", "Only criminals will be on that list" blah blah blah....  The folks who otherwise are law abiding citizens, passed background checks, got training, paid taxes - ends up on that list because NJ decides their mistaken carry in NJ qualifies them as "criminals"... The individuals now are forever stripped off their 2A rights EVERYWHERE in the country.  How is that for fairness ? 

 

Lets take "No Fly List".  Same story. National Security, Terrorists etc. Due process is supposedly afforded and no one supposed to get on that list unless there is compelling reason. Then a politician ends up on that list. A journalist. A regular Joe. Tom, Dick and Harry are on that list. How do they get off ? No one can tell because "its national security" matter.  In the meantime, people lose their jobs, lost business due to travel restrictions.  So much for "liberty and pursuit of happiness". 

 

Show me ONE list thats not abused, then I will show you 100 thats abused beyond reproach. Those people should be ashamed of themselves for running freedom and country into the ground. Yet, they claim themselves to be protectors from "Terrorists"... 

 

 

BTW, the definition of "Criminal" has been so diluted that its a wonder how anyone can even own a firearm anymore.  In an ideal world, a Criminal should either be dead (Capital Punishment) or be ward of the State in Prison.  The laws are made nilly willy and so ridiculously that they qualify majority of the population as Criminals.

 

Did you know that a "disorderly conduct" can get one onto that existing "criminal" list. When did a guy yelling BS on the street be considered so dangerous as to deny 2A rights ?  

 

The late Senator Kennedy was placed on the no fly list. I'm sure a couple phone calls later and he was off it. Anyone of us would get off it so easily. Sorry but when start hearing about lists, I look around for some other place to trow my support.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Yes. If there wasn't another disqualifying reason.

That's quite scary honestly. Although I know that terrorists don't usually walk in to a LGS to buy their weapons. And this is coming from someone that gets pulled off planes because my name is similar to someone on a no fly list.

[n4p226r 105]

That's quite scary honestly. Although I know that terrorists don't usually walk in to a LGS to buy their weapons. And this is coming from someone that gets pulled off planes because my name is similar to someone on a no fly list.

What's scary about a person that has never been convicted of a crime exercising a constitutional right? You think all 1.5 million + people on the list are actual terrorists?

[1LtCAP 4,263]

what's scary about a guy that wrote a bad check owning a gun? in some instances, that is after all a felony.

[A-Tech 8]

What about a guy that posts a certain picture on social media that gets him on a list....ask me how I know

[Rysdad 5]

My gosh people,

Don't you understand that if you own a gun, you are already on a list?

Don't you understand that every time you file for a permit, your privacy is invaded and recorded?

The NCRA will do away with that. All of it.

 

No one will be on the list that sickens some of you unless you have been convicted of a felony or adjudicated to be  mentally unstable.

 

Can't you understand that the government is tracking you now and this bill could end them tracking you and just track the bad guys?

 

It is no more complicated or sickening than that.  

I'll have nothing else to say in this.  I find it hard to believe some of you can't see a healthy tree through the foggy forest of fear. 

 

Dwight

Lots of differing opinions here.  Keep in mind on the other side they are all on the same page. 

 

I myself would be happy to get concealed carry any way we can and fight the rest of the fight later.  I certainly would try to get everything but would settle for just getting our rights restored for now.

 

Has there been an update?  I didn't see anything last night.