Combat Medic's Advice on Caliber and the One Shot Myth

[High Exposure 5,662]

Interesting article and very much inline with the observations I have had, leading me to the belief that "nothing you can hold in two hands is guaranteed to stop an adversary with one shot".

 

If you believe in the "one shot, one kill" silliness enough to plan your defensive needs around it, you should seriously re-think your TTPs.

 

Pay close attention to the last paragraph. Not all ammo is created equal. Keep in mind that for the majority of the piece he is talking about NATO FMJ.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/daniel-zimmerman/medics-advice-shoot-heaviest-rifle-round-shoot-can-hit-shoot/

 

RF, a few friends, and I were shooting out on my range at a dueling tree this last weekend. After having to shoot one steel paddle no less than 4 times with my 9mm service pistol to get the paddle to swing, I commented on how much I hated the 9mm, and the 5.56 NATO as well, and how I had never seen a single shot kill from those rounds, even at close ranges, and even from head shots. Robert asked “seen a few people shot have you?”, I responded, “hundreds”. Then he asked me to share . . .

 

I hate sharing, but I’ve been all over the world and I have seen a whole lot of people shot, stabbed, burned, run over, and blown up, and some of you might find this information valuable.

 

I was an EMT and a trauma tech working on a truck and in a trauma room for about 10 years and I was an army combat medic for eight years. Also — and this is important — when deployed I was almost always part of an “advisor” force. I was technically a “combat advisor” for two tours in Afghanistan, embedded with the Afghan National Army and Afghan National Police force. I’ve done the same thing with host nation National Guard troops in Central America.

 

I’ve never worked OCONUS on a large US base, and my patients have almost always been local nationals. Few of my patients OCONUS have been American troops, and I am grateful for that. Because of my specific role, and because I was often the closest competent medical provider for an extremely large number of people (sometimes over 20,000), I have treated an inordinant amount of gun shot and blast injuries in places where surgical treatment was often well over an hour away. My average medevac time for an urgent or urgent surgical patient in southern Afghanistan was four hours. That’s a long time to bleed. During my first tour in Afghanistan, I averaged one patient death per day.

 

I kept mission logs and patient logs. Looking through all my logs, both CONUS and OCONUS, I have recorded 371 gun shot wounds and significant blast injuries. About 20% of my patients were children under the approximate age of 12. About half of the total were blast wounds, primarily from mines and IEDs of all types. But that half represent a much greater number of deaths, and it doesn’t include the dead that didn’t make it to me.

 

Let me cut to the chase here, if the goal is to live, you would rather be shot close range in the face by a 9X19 or .45ACP round than step on a mine or be in the first 10 yards or so of any significant blast. Blasts cause multiple injuries, and shrapnel from the blast is often travelling far faster than even the fastest modern rifle caliber bullets. Wounding comes from overpressure, penetrating trauma (the vast majority of the injuries) and the body actually being thrown against other objects or the ground. So if the choice is to drive over an Italian anti-tank mine (still a little bitter about that one), or take one in the noggin, I say grin and bear it.

 

I owe Robert an apology. I did actually record one single-shot kill from a 9X18 (Makarov). It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. The victim died immediately. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far out as 60 meters, fired from an HK UMP 45, which one of our team members carried and used with Jedi-like skill. The vast majority of engagements with that weapon, however, were within half that distance and patients usually took several hits. What can I say, he got lucky once.

 

On the civilian side, I saw only one single-shot kill from a pistol ever, and that was from a .357 magnum, within a living room, probably not more than five yards. The round entered the sternum and exited the spine. In fact, within the US, the vast majority of people that I saw shot lived after receiving medical treatment. That includes attempted suicides. I even had a patient live after a self inflicted shotgun wound to the face. He died of the cancer he was attempting to flee from, months later.

 

Beyond that, I do have recorded kills with a 9X19, but they all required multiple shots or they all took time to die. Time enough to return fire or flee far enough to have to search for them. I don’t mean seconds of life, either — I mean minutes or hours. I have seen people shot that had to traverse long distances that still got away. And damn that’s frustrating.

 

In just about every country I have been in, our host nation counterparts — army and police — used the 9X19 NATO round. Because so much of what I did was house-to-house police searches, I’ve seen a lot of pistol shootings, much more than US police would ever see, and much more than experienced by most medics deploying solely with US personnel. And yet, I have zero, not one single experience, where a single gunshot wound from a 9X19 NATO round killed someone prior to them being able to return fire or flee. This includes people shot in the chest, back, back of the head (one hit behind the left ear) the neck and the face. None.

 

Unfortunately, the same goes for the 5.56 NATO round. I have yet to witness a single shot quick kill with this round. I even recorded a patient shot from less than three feet away, square in the back of the head, who lived. The round did not exit his body. Yes, he was immediately rendered unconscious and required (might I say exceptional) medical treatment. He was comatose for at least six months after that, but he lived.

 

But more importantly, in every experience, at ranges from zero (negligent discharges) to 35 yards (my closest, and worst-placed, shot on a person) to 400 yards (our average initial engagement distance in Afghanistan) individuals shot with a single 5.56 NATO round had time to fire, maneuver, or both. Did I see single shots that killed eventually? Yes. Does that matter in combat? Not one damn bit if you are the one they are still shooting at.

 

For those of you who say “just shoot them again,” I would tell you that is actually pretty difficult on a mobile target with cover at 400 meters who is shooting at you. Also, once they get shot they tend to be a little more wary. People are tricky that way. I will never forget the terror of shooting a man, watching the round strike his chest, and then see him lay over a short wall to steady his aim and continue firing at my teammates.

 

In my experience, the standard NATO combat round pokes 5.56mm holes in both bones and flesh, shattering nothing. It creates minimal bleeding. I know people say it tumbles and yaws, but that isn’t my experience at all. I saw it poke tiny holes in humans and rarely induced hemorrhaging sufficient to cause unconsciousness or uncompensated shock, which is the only result that matters.

 

On the flip side, having a patient who was shot by a 7.62X51 NATO or larger round was a rarity. Dead people aren’t patients, they are a supply issue. Patients hit with a ZSU aren’t patients either, they are an iron-like odor in the wind.

 

Take from that what you will. For me, what I learned is, when it comes to combat, shoot the heaviest rifle round I can, shoot at what I can hit, and then shoot it again if I can. I also learned that, in general, multiple organ damage shortens the time a patient is able to compensate for hemorrhagic shock far greater than the effect of a larger wound track in a single organ. And the Ma Deuce is the greatest, most perfect thing ever invented by man.

 

I have included a photo of a patient shot at close range with the 5.56NATO round (above). The photo is of the patient’s calf, and is as I received the patient, within minutes after the shooting. Minimal care was necessary, with the primary concern being infection and tendon damage, not blood loss or bone damage. This is typical of the damage I have seen by this round.

 

As an aside, Chris Kyle (FWFS, brother) was a friend of mine, and while not so patiently listening to one of my Crown-induced rants on the 5.56 NATO, he suggested that it was not caliber I hated, but the bullet. He told me to load up the case as fast as I could, push a 64 grain or heavier soft point round and see what happens. So I had Underground Tactical built me an AR in 5.56 which I swore I would never own, and built rounds ranging from 64 to 75 grains with it. I’ve taken 11 deer with them, and the wound tracks are nothing like I saw with the NATO round. I’ve never had to look for an animal, and a little Underground 5.5lb AR in 5.56 is my go-to hill country deer gun now, which is just crazy.

[bhunted 887]

Interesting. So it's not the caliber as much as the type of bullet? FMJ being the worse? Did I read that right?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Krdshrk 3,877]

I wonder if they were using M855.  I know MK262 is much more effective....

[Dan 177]

IMHO....

 

FMJ's are a compromise for military's of the world. They have to balance barrier blind capabilities with terminal effects in enemy combatants. Que in the current choice of 5.56 (Mk262/Mk318) and 5.45 (7n6/7n10) intermediate cartridges of the world. Both contain technology to enable decent barrier blind capabilities, along with destabilization effects for terminal organic target damage (most notably the propensity to yaw and cause large cavitation cavities along with physical projectile path tissue damage).

 

Military's also have to follow the war laws stating that expanding bullets aren't allowed.

 

That being said, for self defense situations or hunting... most of the time barrier blind capabilities are not needed or are actually a liability. That opens the task to the various expanding bullets designed for rapid expansion in organic targets, such as varmint rounds. This is where I feel rounds such as the 55 or 60 grain Hornady VMAX round to be an excellent choice for a home defense round. For hunting, bonded soft points will allow for more penetration before full expansion/fragmentation.

[mipafox 438]

There is more going on here than bullets.

 

Most of the guys in Iraq were quite delighted with M4s and M855, as all surveys have noted. Same thing in Afghanistan, to a lesser extent: Most were delighted! In both cases, Marines even more so than Army - Marines are heavier on M16A2/3/4s (range and velocity).

 

Anybody notice this guy as mostly seen engagements start at 400 meters or beyond? He makes a point that most of the engagements he has witnessed are at range outside of M855 frag limits.

 

The guy also has interesting measurement endpoints:

 

- Man shot once with 5.56 dies a few minutes later - Failure of weapon because death is not the measurement endpoint, incapacitation is.

- Man shot in head with 5.56 goes unconscious instantly and into coma for 6 months - Failure of weapon because - wait, what? I thought death was not the measurement endpoint?

 

- Those slick bastards shot at 400 meters tend to get away alive, maybe die later, maybe not for days. Or they hunker down behind stuff and are hard to reengage.

 

So, in other words, they stop coming. You stop somebody from closing at 400 meters and that is a complete failure of the weapon system? That is not a complete failure.

 

The reason the M16 was a huge success was the invention of the transistor. With mortar, arty, or air support available to 80% of troops, it was no longer about SALVO's "most combat engagements are inside of 300 yards." It was about, "Unsurvivable firepower inside of 200 yards and preferably 100 yards is critical to keep enemy within contact but at range for crew-served, indirect fire, and support weapons. Maneuver and closure to kill is also enhanced."

 

This is a subject that does not come up often and it is also a situation this man was not generally in according to his description of his combat experience - running around mountains in a unit manned with people that eat rocks for two tours.

 

Now, yeah, it unnerving when a guy hit at 400 meters gets behind something and shoots back for a while before he dies. They DO do that after being hit with 7.62 as well. There is no doubt M855 is not a great round, and that paired with M4s it's even worse, or that 400 meter shots with M16s of any kind won't always kill someone instantly. But he also admits he's got a bias against it and has a hard time believing his eyes after dropping 11 deer with it and not looking for a single one.

 

He makes a lot of great points, but there is a very skewed context and perspective IMO. Maybe things would be different if he rode with the Marines in Fahlluja. There were so many skulls missing brains there was an investigation into the possibility of mass executions of Al Qaeda personnel by US Marines. So much for 5.56 headshots being routinely survivable at close range. And these were not close range shots by and large, just good ones.

[jm1827 284]

Great read- thanks for posting

[Barms 98]

Excellent read.

 

But here's my takeaway: I'm never gonna be in combat so is absolute "kill" my final destination?

 

Why i thought I had learned after a few years of reading this awesome board is about "comfort, confidence, ability to stay on target, etc. Let's say there is an HD scenario or some day if I ever carry let's say a mall psycho or car jacking. Do I want one shot one kill from a .357 magnum revolver or do I want what I hope would be 3 well place shots from a Glock 42? (I hope I got that new small Glock number right I'm not a Glock boy)

 

Maybe this is thread drift but my point is "one shot stopping power" versus what I can shoot the best from my bedroom? Yeah i understand in HD if he didn't go down was I effective? I dunno? Does he have to die to stop coming at you? I don't know. Can I put 3 in him with 357? (Would I be proficient shooting that as well as my M&P 9?)

 

I welcome thoughts. It certainly makes you think.

 

I just kinda bring this up because we debate about best HD weapon and many people feel that an AR was best (the round, the capacity etc) but now I just read the above at how "lame" the 556 is???

[JohnnyB 4,323]

I have 4 HD guns. A Sig p220 .45 with a lasermax, A Beretta PX4 .9mm,  a 12 guage pump with 00 Buckshot and an M4 Bushmaster in 5.56.

 

I think I have it covered. At least in my bedroom arsenal! Other rooms have other arsenals as required.

[JohnnyB 4,323]

Excellent read.

 

But here's my takeaway: I'm never gonna be in combat so is absolute "kill" my final destination? In a free state, incapacitation is the goal. In the PRNJ, absolute kill is the goal since dead people can't sue you and tell no tales!

 

 

 

I just kinda bring this up because we debate about best HD weapon and many people feel that an AR was best (the round, the capacity etc) but now I just read the above at how "lame" the 556 is???  My 9mm pistols all fire 15 rounds

per mag just like my AR in 5.56 with it's blocked 15/30 mags. In a free state, 30 rounds is common for the AR platform.  Here in Jersey, no advantage. I would also worry about over penetration in HD with the AR.

[High Exposure 5,662]

The goal is always to stop the threat. Not kill, not incapacitate - stop.

 

15 rounds of 5.56/.223 > than 15 rounds of 9mm all day long.

 

5.56 with the right quality ammo for the job at hand is not the same as 55gr ball.

 

Read up on the penetration issues and the differences in terminal ballistics between 5.56 and 9mm. You may be surprised.

[SgtToadette 59]

That's why I keep a K-bar in the other hand.

[High Exposure 5,662]

That's why I keep a K-bar in the other hand.

CombatAuto? Is that you?

[SgtToadette 59]

That post still makes me laugh. I couldn't help myself hahaha.

[High Exposure 5,662]

Hey it worked for trench warfare (allegedly) in WWI so it will work perfectly for home defense...

 

Some people's kids

[Shawnmoore81 623]

In my house whether they are dead, wounded or comply is entirely up to the intruder.