BB gun = SBR?

[illy 1]

I was looking into getting Daisy Red Ryder to teach my nephew some fundamentals.

 

So I find the specs online and:

 

Technical Information:

 

Caliber: 177 Cal

 

Weight: 2.2 lb.

 

Overall Length: 35.4"

 

Barrel Length: 10.85"

 

Since bb guns are considered firearms by our stupid state gov't, does that make this a short barreled rifle? Seriously?

 

[n4p226r 105]

I think you are safe

 

"Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

"Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

[AMScott 3]

There is a bill in NJ Assembly to fix this.....( (Republician) DiMaio )...... Can't get any sponsors...... 

[PK90 3,570]

Don't know where you got your specs, but they are wrong.

[illy 1]

Don't know where you got your specs, but they are wrong.

Midway, though a bunch of other websites (pyramid air, Amazon, air gun something or other, etc) list the same bbl length.

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/547404/daisy-1938-red-ryder-air-rifle-177-caliber-bb-wood-stock-blue-barrel-with-fun-kit

 

Gander Mtn is the only outlier. It says 12".

[PK90 3,570]

Don't know where you got your specs, but they are wrong.

Midway, though a bunch of other websites (pyramid air, Amazon, air gun something or other, etc) list the same bbl length.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/547404/daisy-1938-red-ryder-air-rifle-177-caliber-bb-wood-stock-blue-barrel-with-fun-kit

Gander Mtn is the only outlier. It says 12".

 

Well now, I stand corrected. Since I have several in the store for sale, I decided to look at it closer. The barrel is indeed about that length, even though Daisy never mentions it on their website or in the manual.

 

That being said, researching the BB gun classification, I find myself a little perplexed at the actual statutes covering these. I cite the following NJ laws of definitions:

 

"Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. 

"Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

"Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not fire fixed ammunition.

 

As per the definitions, it appears that NJ considers BB guns as "firearms". However, they are not "rifles", they are "shotguns", as the bore is smooth.

 

"Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

 

So technically, the Daisy Red Ryder BB Gun is considered a sawed off shotgun per the NJ Statutes. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

ETA: So, are the rifled bored pellet guns exempt from the law as the definition fits neither shotgun nor rifle?

[mipafox 438]

Have Will Hayden mount that thing to a lawnmower and it won't be an SBR, it'll be a game changa.

[Carcano 14]

Have Will Hayden mount that thing to a lawnmower and it won't be an SBR, it'll be a game changa.

 

Hard to do in prison

[Carcano 14]

So technically, the Daisy Red Ryder BB Gun is considered a sawed off shotgun per the NJ Statutes. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

ETA: So, are the rifled bored pellet guns exempt from the law as the definition fits neither shotgun nor rifle?

 

It's sad we even have to ask this question

[vladtepes 1,060]

Well now, I stand corrected. Since I have several in the store for sale, I decided to look at it closer. The barrel is indeed about that length, even though Daisy never mentions it on their website or in the manual.

 

That being said, researching the BB gun classification, I find myself a little perplexed at the actual statutes covering these. I cite the following NJ laws of definitions:

 

 

As per the definitions, it appears that NJ considers BB guns as "firearms". However, they are not "rifles", they are "shotguns", as the bore is smooth.

 

 

So technically, the Daisy Red Ryder BB Gun is considered a sawed off shotgun per the NJ Statutes. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

ETA: So, are the rifled bored pellet guns exempt from the law as the definition fits neither shotgun nor rifle?

 

 

as always the literal wording of the law trumps common sense.. as you have point out.. a childs toy.. a bb gun.. is essentially a shotgun in NJ.. and one with a sub 18in barrel is essentially a sawed off shotgun... absurd.. but accurate as far as I can tell.. 

[Carcano 14]

as always the literal wording of the law trumps common sense.. as you have point out.. a childs toy.. a bb gun.. is essentially a shotgun in NJ.. and one with a sub 18in barrel is essentially a sawed off shotgun... absurd.. but accurate as far as I can tell.. 

 

And it carries the same prison time as a real SBS, amazing isn't it?

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Esp if you bought it at Toys-R-Us in a free state and transported it across state lines.

 

You might get out when you're old and grey!

[Carcano 14]

Esp if you bought it at Toys-R-Us in a free state and transported it across state lines.

 

You might get out when you're old and grey!

 

Here is what bothers me...

 

It's obviously a toy, are people going to start robbing banks with SBS Red Ryder BB guns? How many .177 BB guns have been used in crimes with lethal results?

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Here in the PRNJ "Criminal Intent" or "Lethal Results" are not necessary conditions for criminal charges to be brought.

Mere possession is a crime in itself.

 

And this is not one your Firearms Purchaser ID Card is going to get you out of *IF* the Prosecutor and Judge want to make an example out of you.

 

2C:39-3.  Prohibited Weapons and Devices.
b.Sawed-off shotguns.  Any person who knowingly has in his possession any sawed-off shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

2C:39-9  Manufacture, transport, disposition and defacement of weapons and dangerous instruments and appliances.
b.Sawed-off shotguns.  Any person who manufactures, causes to be manufactured, transports, ships, sells or disposes of any sawed-off shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

[PK90 3,570]

How are the rifled bored pellet guns classified in NJ law. They are firearms per the above, but not rifles nor shotguns per the other law definitions. I would also put them in the other weapon category.

 

"Weapon" means anything readily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury. The term includes, but is not limited to, all (1) firearms, even though not loaded or lacking a clip or other component to render them immediately operable;

 

[BillC. 26]

That 10" barrel is the internal tube not the outside "barrel" cover  that you see. For all practical purpose the outer shroud is the barrel of record.

[Midwest 28]

Call the ATF and ask them how to apply for an $200 NFA stamp for a SBR BB Gun in NJ.

 

(Wonder if they will bill you for having to clean off the coffee on their computer monitor).

[mipafox 438]

Call the ATF and ask them how to apply for an $200 NFA stamp for a SBR BB Gun in NJ.

 

(Wonder if they will bill you for having to clean off the coffee on their computer monitor).

We actually have something like this in PA. Black powder guns are considered "firearms" for this portion of the PA law. And under PA law, SBS/SBR/MG is illegal unless registered with ATF. So while a short barreled black powder (or antique) firearm would be legal AND unregulated in most states, I don't believe there is a way to legally own one at all in PA.

[JohnnyB 4,322]

Show me one case where ANY law abiding citizen of the PRNJ has become a felon for possession of a Daisy Red Rider!

 

Common sense dictates it's a toy. A conviction for its possession would never stand! The nation wide public outcry would most definitely

 

expose New Jersey as "The Idiot State"!

 

So if the stupid toy is in your possession, what LEO is going to arrest you?  Which Prosecutor will file charges?  Which Judge will find you guilty?

 

I think we read too much into the law! Sure, It could happen! But the national media would have a field day if it ever did. 

[Golf battery 1,223]

So if it is what you all have declared. Then i believe they pay 200$ for that type of weapon at the gun buybacks. Thats a good amount of money i could make.

[mipafox 438]

Show me one case where ANY law abiding citizen of the PRNJ has become a felon for possession of a Daisy Red Rider!

 

Common sense dictates it's a toy. A conviction for its possession would never stand! The nation wide public outcry would most definitely

 

expose New Jersey as "The Idiot State"!

Which Prosecutor will file charges? Which Judge will find you guilty?

 

I think we read too much into the law! Sure, It could happen! But the national media would have a field day if it ever did.

Show me one case where a non-prohibited guy with no FID, driving around with an unloaded shotgun in his trunk, was made a felon for no reason other than having it.

 

You agree that is illegal, right?

 

These things generally don't make the newspapers. One of our cops here made the same challenge as you, show me one example of a non-prohibited person being charged with possession of a hollowpoint in the absence of any crime. I doubt that sort of thing makes the news much, but I posted an example six months later. And I know of PA EMS that was charged and jailed for responding to an emergency just across the river and having a varmint rifle round visible in their car, I just couldn't find the article. But fortunately Jersey put another guy in jail for a more recent incident of having a hollowpoint with no other crime, and it made the local papers.

 

You challenge doesn't prove anything.

[illy 1]

http://www.nj.com/warrenreporter/index.ssf/2012/04/hackettstown_police_charge_men.html

Police went to the area on a report of a group of men arguing over drugs. There they saw several men standing around a vehicle, one of whom said that he was on the phone arguing over a gas can, police said.

 

Police were given permission to search the vehicle, driven by Tyler Haggerty, 18, of Columbia, police said. They asked if there was anything illegal in the vehicle and Haggerty told police that there was a double-edged knife and a BB handgun inside, police said. Haggerty didn’t have a firearms identification card, police said.

 

 

Haggerty was charged with unlawful possession of a handgun, possession of certain prohibited weapons and unlawful possession of a weapon. He did not post the $2,000 bail and was lodged in the Warren County Correctional Facility.

[illy 1]

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2014/08/gloucester_township_police_arrest_man_with_bb_gun_loaded_clip.html

 

Once there, the officers saw Hernandez allegedly holding an item in his hands. He was immediately ordered to drop the object, show his hands and get on the ground, which he did.

 

The object that Hernandez dropped was found to be an ammunition clip for

an airsoft handgun that was filled with metal BBs and soft pellets, police said.

 

The airsoft handgun was located near Hernandez and found to have the red tip of the gun colored black to match the rest of the handgun. Hernandez said he was "behind the store looking for items to shoot," according to authorities.

 

He was eventually transported to police headquarters, where he was processed and charged with possession of a weapon and possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose. He was remanded to the Camden County Correctional Facility on default of bail.

[illy 1]

Not a felony, but just as ridiculous:

 

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Cops-Charge-7-Year-Old-for-Bringing-Toy-Gun-to-Class-115125844.html

 

The "gun" the child brought to school was a $5 toy gun, similar to a Nerf gun, that shoots soft ping pong type balls, according to the school's superintendent.

Officials also say that there was no evidence of anyone being threatened.

 

Police charged the 7-year-old with possessing an imitation firearm in or on an education institution – a misdemeanor and a minor juvenile offense in New Jersey.

[Carcano 14]

So if it is what you all have declared. Then i beleive they pay 200$ for that type of weapon at the gun buybacks. Thats a good amount of money i could make.

 

I actually thought about doing this, turn $39 into $200 with no questions asked? I would buy a few dozen used BB guns and pocket a few grand...and help get those dangerous pellet rifles off the street.

[Golf battery 1,223]

Yeah right. Id buy every damned red ryder PA has to offer. Too funny what the gun laws have come to.