Funny how ignorant PA people are of NJ gun laws!

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Back to the conversation on hollow points. I thought this was a great way to explain it: hollow points are illegal to have in your possession while committing any crime. I.E. if you (or your kids) have a house party and it gets broken up by cops and they find drugs, and you have HP in the house, that is an additional crime committed. The possession of the HP is not the crime in itself

You should really take the time to read the black letter text of the statute. In particular, 2C:39-3f [the prohibition] and g(2)a [one of the exemptions]

 

The AG's office summarized the statute for those of us unable to translate the legal gibberish into understandable English:

 

 

Transportation and Use of Hollow Point Ammunition by Sportsmen

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [

N.J.S.A

26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to

N.J.S.A

2C:39-6f. . . ."

N.J.S.A

26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

1. 1. A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
   2. A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
   3. A person going directly to a target range, and;
   4. A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

In addition, the sportsman should have a valid hunting license in his possession from the state in which he plans to hunt and should be familiar with that state's gun laws. N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f)(2) requires a person hunting in this State to have a valid hunting license in his possession while traveling to or from the hunting area. Hunting with hollow nose ammunition is permitted in New Jersey. In the case of a New Jersey resident traveling to another state to hunt, it logically would follow that the hunting license would be from the state where the hunter is going. Although the federal statute does not require possession of a hunting license, it does require that the person transporting the firearm be going to a state where possession of that object is lawful. A valid hunting license from that state effectively supplies the proof.

These conditions for use and transport of hollow nose ammunition are consistent with the legislative intent to restrict the use of such ammunition to a limited number of people. It is well established that in construing a statute exceptions are to be "strictly but reasonably construed, consistent with the manifest reason and purpose of the law." Service Armament Co. v. Hyland, 70 N.J. 550, 558-559 (1976). The State Supreme Court has "characterized the Gun Control Law as 'highly purposed and conscientiously designed toward preventing criminal and other unfit elements from acquiring firearms while enabling the fit elements of society to obtain them with minimal burdens.'" Id. at 559.

 

http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

 

So you see, possession of hollowpoints OUTSIDE THE EXEMPTIONS is a crime of the Fourth Degree in and of itself.

[Budasac 13]

Back to the conversation on hollow points. ....... The possession of the HP is not the crime in itself

Actually it is. Basically the same laws that apply to hand guns to hollow points. You can posses them in your home and you can travel to and from the range with them but they must be kept out of reach or locked in the vehicle.

 

______________________________________________________

 

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

 

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

 

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

 

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."

N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

 

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

 

A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;

A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;

A person going directly to a target range, and;

A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

 

___________________________________

 

As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

 

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

[Budasac 13]

 

 

NjJoniGuy beat me to it with the exact same info.

 

 

[owadj01 0]

Sorry....I ment possession in one's home. Yes I agree the law says I cannot just walk around with HP in my pocket. My apologies for not being clear in that. It was just a way to think about it. So many people think they are 100% illegal all the time and it's not true, but just don't get caught doing anything illegal in your home if you have HP, because that would be committing a crime in possession of HP which is an additional charge. Granted most legal firearm owners in this state are upstanding citizens (and Internet lawyers) so it really shouldn't be a problem

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Yeah, lets not get into another hollow point debate for gods sake.... use the search function and clear your calendar.

 

 

My only input to this is, If you don't expect people from outside NJ to fully know NJ gun laws then they shouldn't be talking about them as truth and they certainly shouldn't be giving advice. Secondly, if you live within 1 hr from NJ, its safe to say part of the customer base is from NJ, and it would be assumed your familiar with NJ laws. Regardless, these shops know what they can and cant sell, and are fully aware the only limitations are on Rifles. To mention anything about ammo is down right irrelevant, even if it was illegal in NJ.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I may be crazy but I think the kid may have been right about the BB gun. Can they run a PICS for what PA considers a toy?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There is NO background check for BB's guns even in NJ.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

There is NO background check for BB's guns even in NJ.

Even BB/pellet pistols?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Even BB/pellet pistols?

I'm not a 100% sure, but i don't think so. P2P still required in NJ though. SO technically still BG check, Just not sure on the nics. However, outside of NJ there is no regulations on BB guns.. They are not firearms and stores are not liable for selling to out of staters.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

JackDaWack:

 

You are correct

No NICS check for pellet guns

Must burn a PPP on a Pellet Pistol

Must possess a FPID to buy a Pellet Rifle

No 4473

No NICS call

 

edited to correct lousy spelling on my part

Edited March 31, 2015 by njJoniGuy

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

...but just don't get caught doing anything illegal in your home if you have HP, because that would be committing a crime in possession of HP which is an additional charge...

Where do you get this untruth?????

[owadj01 0]

Where do you get this untruth?????

2C:39-4.1. Weapons; controlled dangerous substances and other offenses, penalties.

 

d.Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:1-8 or any other provision of law, a conviction arising under this section shall not merge with a conviction for a violation of any of the sections of chapter 35 or chapter 16 referred to in this section nor shall any conviction under those sections merge with a conviction under this section. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:44-5 or any other provision of law, the sentence imposed upon a violation of this section shall be ordered to be served consecutively to that imposed for any conviction for a violation of any of the sections of chapter 35 or chapter 16 referred to in this section or a conviction for conspiracy or attempt to violate any of those sections.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Given that possession of hollowpoint ammo in your home IS NOT a crime, your premise of it becoming an add-on charge to some other offense you may be charged with and convicted of is utter and complete bullcrap.

 

And you still have not quoted any relevant statute that informs otherwise.

 

And to quote an ancient sage, speak not of which you do not know.

[Kaiser7 33]

I experienced this Saturday at Oaks. Some guy was selling a (overpriced) Norinco SKS. He mentioned that it didn't have the bayonet, and acted like that was a selling point. I told him that an SKS with a bayonet is fine in NJ--it's only a concern if it has a detachable magazine.

"Well son, you might think you know the law, but I never heard anything about a bayonet being legal in NJ". 

 

It was at that point that I realized the guy was a goddamn moron, and It would not suit me to be a moron as well by paying $400 for Norinco SKS missing the bayonet.

[owadj01 0]

2C:39-4.1. Weapons; controlled dangerous substances and other offenses, penalties.

 

1. a. Any person who has in his possession any firearm while in the course of committing, attempting to commit, or conspiring to commit a violation of N.J.S.2C:35-3, N.J.S. 2C:35-4, N.J.S.2C:35-5, section 3 or section 5 of P.L.1997, c.194 (C.2C:35-5.2 or 2C:35-5.3), N.J.S.2C:35-6, section 1 of P.L.1987, c.101 (C.2C:35-7), section 1 of P.L.1997, c.327 (C.2C:35-7.1), N.J.S.2C:35-11 or N.J.S.2C:16-1 is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

 

b.Any person who has in his possession any weapon, except a firearm, with a purpose to use such weapon unlawfully against the person or property of another, while in the course of committing, attempting to commit, or conspiring to commit a violation of N.J.S.2C:35-3, N.J.S.2C:35-4, N.J.S.2C:35-5, section 3 or 5 of P.L.1997, c.194 (C.2C:35-5.2 or 2C:35-5.3), N.J.S.2C:35-6, section 1 of P.L.1987, c.101 (C.2C:35-7), section 1 of P.L.1997,c.327 (C.2C:35-7.1), N.J.S.2C:35-11 or N.J.S.2C:16-1 is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

 

c.Any person who has in his possession any weapon, except a firearm, under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as the weapon may have, while in the course of committing, attempting to commit, or conspiring to commit a violation of N.J.S.2C:35-3, N.J.S.2C:35-4, N.J.S.2C:35-5, section 3 or section 5 of P.L. 1997, c.194 (C.2C:35-5.2 or 2C:35-5.3), N.J.S.2C:35-6, section 1 of P.L.1987, c.101 (C.2C:35-7), section 1 of P.L.1997,c.327(C.2C:35-7.1), N.J.S.2C:35-11 or N.J.S.2C:16-1 is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

[owadj01 0]

Can't you see? It's clear as mud. I would say if you want, test out my theory and prove me wrong go for it, but again most legal firearm owners in NJ are upstanding citizens who only get in trouble for the laws in our state being so not clearly understood. So i doubt any of you would. I think we can agree you can have HP in the house, you can use them within the provided exemptions ,and it's a bad to break non-firearm laws. I will leave it as that.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

And with that last reply, I will now abide by another piece of sage advice:

 

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

There is NO background check for BB's guns even in NJ.

 

Even BB/pellet pistols?

 

SO technically still BG check...

 

[Guest]

LOL, event the "experts" here cant agree on what the laws pertain to and you expect the shops in other states to know our laws????

[Smokin .50 1,907]

And with that last reply, I will now abide by another piece of sage advice:

 

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

WAIT FOR IT.....WAIT FOR IT.....OK, here it is....       That's the problem with forums in general.  Everybody is entitled to their OPINIONS, lol, but few OPINIONS are based upon the written laws cause it's simply easier to make SH!T up and "err on the side of caution"..........and so my stomach churns!

[owadj01 0]

Ill start with I never claimed to be an expert. I did offer an opinion on something based on how it was explained to me and how I understood the language of the statues. Obviously as others have noted, I brought this on myself. I'm sorry you think my opinion is wrong and that I'm an idiot. I think of myself as someone who is not an idiot but you don't know me so it's your choice to base that off a few comments on a message board.

[owadj01 0]

And let me be clear, I'm NOT saying I'm right, but I stand by my opinion

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Don't be too hard on yourself, you are a victim of the "big lie". If something is repeated loud enough and often enough, people tend to believe it, even if it is wrong.

 

Possession of hollowpoints, outside the exceptions stipulated in the statutes, is a primary crime that does not have to be ancillary to another crime - it stands on its own. It is not an "add-on" charge, another crime need not have been committed in order to be charged for possession of hollowpoints.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Carcano 14]

I stopped in at Surplus City recently and tried to buy some .22s. They had 500rd bulk Remington Thunderbolts and CCI Mini Mag 300 packs both for $30 with tax included.

I told the guy behind the counter I wanted a box of the Mini Mags. He told me I could not buy them since I was from Jersey and hollow points are illegal there. I explained to him

that was not the case but he told me I was wrong. So I got a box of the Thunderbolts to add to ever growing pile of Thunderbolts!

I also purchased a rifle while there and was lectured to go straight home with no deviations as he had read NJ law. I went on to explain that my FPID card gives me the right to keep this

stupid bolt action .22 or any other long arm in my trunk as long as I want. He lectured me that if I got pulled over I would be a Felon!

 

How can an older guy, BTW, I think he was the owner! Have a gun shop so close to the NJ border and seem completely ignorant of NJ Statues regarding guns???

 

Has anyone else experienced this??? Which PA shops are good to deal with for us stuck here in the PRNJ???

 

I wouldn't have bought anything from that shop, I would have called the State Police and asked if it was legal to own hollow point ammunition in front of him.

 

Hollow points are legal to buy and transport home, use at a range, etc. and with the FPID you could drive around day/night with a rifle in the car (unloaded) and be 100% legal.

[Carcano 14]

so... a store that operates in a different state doesn't know the extensive rules of gun law in NJ? sorry but this falls into the who cares category for me.... what I found frustrating was the vast amount of NJ FFLs! that appeared unclear on NJ law.. the law for the state they are actually operating in.. 

 

The shop should know NJ law, the shop owner is stupid to turn down legal business and spew uneducated nonsense to customers.

 

Plenty of PA shops have no problem selling to NJ residents, the ones that cannot understand NJ gun laws pass up good business.

[n4p226r 105]

Lowers can't be sold to buyers under 21.  That's a federal thing.

the irony is hilarious

[Carcano 14]

the irony is hilarious

 

But you can legally sell lowers to someone under 21 fact to face as a non-FFL..

[n4p226r 105]

YMMV at any given store, whether in this state or others. I had a "kid" at Dicks in PA tell me that BB/pellet guns we OK to buy without paperwork even though I clearly identified myself as a NJ resident. I've also had PA FFLs tell me that I could buy anything I wanted and drive it back to Jersey to get modified by my local gunsmith. YMMV.

the "kid" at dicks was right.  BB/pellet guns aren't guns in PA or federally so they can sell them to you without paperwork.  PA FFL telling you they can sell you noncompliant guns would be breaking federal law though

[Carcano 14]

I may be crazy but I think the kid may have been right about the BB gun. Can they run a PICS for what PA considers a toy?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

BB guns are not regulated by BATFE or under PA law, they couldn't run PICS for it.

 

You are buying a "toy" in PA which becomes a weapon in NJ.

 

They might refuse to sell it if they believe you are going to cross into NJ with it.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Can't you see? It's clear as mud. I would say if you want, test out my theory and prove me wrong go for it, but again most legal firearm owners in NJ are upstanding citizens who only get in trouble for the laws in our state being so not clearly understood. So i doubt any of you would. I think we can agree you can have HP in the house, you can use them within the provided exemptions ,and it's a bad to break non-firearm laws. I will leave it as that.

You listed quite a few NJ statues that make absolutely no mention of hollow points, can you bold the parts of these statutes that apply to making them illegal during the commission of a crime. And even still, weapons charges are only tacked on to those specific violations listed in the statute.

[owadj01 0]

This is why i said its clear as mud. So the way I see it, based on how it was explained to me and my reading 2C:39; HP are covered under 2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices, specifically 2:39-3.F. While common sense calls HP a type of ammo, NJ lumps this in as a "a weapon" by 2C:39-1.R "weapon" (4): "stun guns; and any weapon or other device which projects, releases, or emits tear gas or any other substance intended to produce t emporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air." (Notice the use of the word device there as well ties 2C:39-3 to be covered by this definition of a weapon). This would make 2C:39-4.1 -1b, 1c applicable to HP as they are wepons in NJ eyes.