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Best Optic for Our Area

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Alright NJGF, imagine the following:

 

A complete SHTF/ Zombie scenario is underway, you can only have an AR, chambered in 5.56/.223. What glass do you want sitting on top of it? Aimpoint CompM4s, Trijicon ACOG TA31F (no doctor!), or a Trijicon VCOG (please stick to these optics)?

 

I live in Hudson county, so many engagements would be 50 yards and closer, therefore I figure the CompM4s would be ideal.

 

I am considering all 3 of these optics for my first purchase, so please stick to them and define your reason why you think it is ideal FOR OUR AREA. I realize NJ can get quite rural, so that's why I'm asking. 

 

I don't really need an optic (irons work well for plinking), so a "SHTF" situation is my only real justification. 

 

All input is appreciated, but please have a reason.

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The two Trijicons have magnification, so if you keep it under 50 yards, kind of pointless. Aimpoint would be my vote. If you needed to extend the range out, you can always add a magnifier.

 

However, I do have to ask on why you picked the Comp ML3? You can save some money by going with the PRO. Very similar specs, same battery, and also has night vision settings. Plus, you get the mount. It is probably one of the more commonly picked Aimpoints due to its features per cost.

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While I'm still an Aimpoint fan and it will suffice for up to 100yards with no prob, an ACOG x4 will give you what you need. Don't think for one moment you'd have to worry about an Aimpoint Pro for instance not working or to worry about batteries with over 50,000hrs time on the batteries.

 

even with the magnification, i'd go with the trijicon out of that list, solely due to the fact that they'll always work, as they don't need batteries.

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I'm an ACOG guy. The TA-31F is my choice.

Simple.

Rugged.

The BAC concept makes the reticle as useful as a red dot at closer ranges, with the utility of 4x magnification.

 

Some people don't like the short eye relief, but I grew up on NTCH shooting, so it's ideal for me.

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I don't like any of the options, but if you are set on those 3 then VCOG.

Any reason you don't like my choices? What else would you suggest? I thought these pretty much covered all bases.

 

I have a CompM4s on the list because it takes a AA battery. That is (in my opinion) the next best thing to no battery.

 

The ACOG seems popular. How bad is it having the magnification when shooting at say 50 yards? 25?

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Optics are a VERY personal thing. My opinions and choice are just that, so take what follows with that in mind.

 

1) The comp M4 isn't worth twice the money of the PRO is because of the battery. For the price difference you could buy ( .. counts of fingers ..) at least 100 DL 1/3N batteries. Or better yet you could buy 10 of them which last long enough for the optic to out live your natural lifespan if you turn it off now and then even if you exclude the zombie apocalypse and an extra 1000rd of ammo. I wish that the PRO used AA's but not I don't wish that for $400 worth.

 

2) I don't like fixed power scopes, specially low powered ones. I know lots of people like their ACOG's, I don't. I think they are a compromise from the days where lower power variable scopes didn't work well. It should be noted that outside ACOG's no one else seriously tries to sell such things, or certainly not in quantity. I think the only reason ACOG's are still around is their military association. Yes, they have beautiful glass, yes their multi power thing is cool, but those are almost side issues for my money it isn't worth paying for something that is fixed at a low power.

 

3) The VCOG is interesting. I like low power variable scopes. I specially like scopes that at 1x work like a red dot and at 6x works like a reasonable mid-distance scope. I like that it uses a AA. What I don't like is its cost, or its reticle, but I wouldn't refuse a free one. My choice in that niche is the Vortex Razor 1-6, which is 60% of the price, has a possibly brighter reticle that lasts just as long on a much smaller battery (and you could stock a lot of them in the grip of your rifle alone), and for me a more pleasing reticle.

 

 

So .. in conclusion I'd get a PRO if I wanted a red dot or a Razor HD II if I wanted a scope. In fact, I have done so for both.

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I'm in partial agreeance with Vlad.

 

I would choose the Aimpoint Pro over the Comp M4. You can buy a lot of batteries for he price difference, as Vlad correctly noted.

 

I prefer the 4x fixed mag of the ACOG. It's simple, and not a lot to go wrong. No batteries.

BAC works very well if you practice with it. Makes it work like a red dot.

I find that even with my near 50 year old eyes, I can effectively, and consistently hit a man sized target at 400+ meters with it. The built in BDC is nice too.

For me, it's a SIMPLE best of both worlds.

 

I am interested in a VCOG for my Colt LE901 7.62 rifle.

Not a huge fan of the reticle (the horseshoe would be my choice out of the offerings).

The longer effective range capability of the 7.62 round makes me want more magnification than just 4x, and I think the VCOG fits the bill for me nicely.

The price....OUCH!!

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I have a CompM4s on the list because it takes a AA battery. That is (in my opinion) the next best thing to no battery.

Did you change your original post? Only reason I ask is because I'm pretty sure it said Comp ML3 when I posted...

 

The Comp M4 is a good sight, but again, the PRO does similar for a lot less (about half). Grab three of the batteries, and you got enough for three years. Add them in your next MidwayUSA order and you'll barely notice it.

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Vlad G and Displaced Texan, awesome write-ups. I suppose that the VCOG is over priced. I need to shoot an ACOG a little bit more. I only had brief interaction with one, and a lot of time on an Aimpoint CompM2. I suppose in an urban environment, the magnification seemed like it would be useful for scouting more than actual firing. 

 

Did you change your original post? Only reason I ask is because I'm pretty sure it said Comp ML3 when I posted... The Comp M4 is a good sight, but again, the PRO does similar for a lot less (about half). Grab three of the batteries, and you got enough for three years. Add them in your next MidwayUSA order and you'll barely notice it. It comes with the same mount, which is better than the other Comp series sights, but you are paying A LOT! For the use of AA batteries, I wouldn't put $400+ into a red dot. If I were overseas, where smaller batteries are harder to get, maybe, but Internet and local battery/electronic stores keep me from investing that much more. Even if they used CR123s, which most of my weaponlights and flashlights use, I still wouldn't put $200 more for that capability.

 

No, I didn't edit the post. Computer screens can play tricks. I suppose stocking batteries would be the cheaper solution. Plus I could buy WAY more ammo with that money. lol

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of the 3, I'm going with the VCOG.

 

personally, I like that you have the option of true 1x sighting or you can crank up the magnification as needed.  Unless this gun is strictly for doing entries and room clearing, I feel you need to have a wider range of distances that it's good for.  Even with your rifle set up for cqb you should be equipped to engage out to 200 yds, with the 1-6x glass.

 

for the 50 yds and closer work,I like a holo/rds, especially if you are dealing with moving targets.  Can you swing both?  If so, Trijiconhas a rmr reflex sight that mounts on top of the VCOG.  This would be the most flexible set up.  For that matter, you can buy a 45 degree adapter to mount a reflex sight.  Once in place, just turn your rifle a little to the left and aim/shoot.  While he 45 deg mount puts you closer to the bore centerline, the drawback is that brass ejects closer to your face.

 

 

Eric

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Eric, Have you had a chance to get your hands on a VCOG or any variable powered scope?

 

The VCOG is very nice, but it's expensive, heavy, has a mediocre reticle, did I mention it's expensive?

 

I was serious above - get a PRO and binoculars and spend the rest of the money you would have blown on a VCOG on hookers and blow (training and ammo). You will be more effective with a PRO, 2K rounds of quality ammo, and a multi day training, class than just a VCOG on your rifle.

 

I wouldn't say no to a VCOG, in fact I am in the market for a variable powered scope myself, but I already have a bunch of Aimpoints.

 

A MRDS on top of a scope blows goats, and personally, I think that the 45degree offset sights are polished turds - but they are way better than then the super high MRDS.

 

And just FYI, I can ring an 8" steel disk out to 200 yards all day long with my PRO.

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1. Eric, Have you had a chance to get your hands on a VCOG or any variable powered scope?

 

 

 

2. And just FYI, I can ring an 8" steel disk out to 200 yards all day long with my PRO.

Maybe I read you wrong, but your first statement is pretty condescending.  What if I asked you "can you even hit the broad side of an elephant's ass"?  See what I'm saying?

 

I never tried the VCOG.  If anything, I was going with selecting one of the 3 choices that the OP asked us for.  He didn't ask us to paint outside of the lines, otherwise, my preference for a 1-6x optic would be the Vortex Razor with the VMR2 MRAD reticle(on my cqb AR) and an EO TEch holo sight on a 45 deg mount, which happens to be what I'm running at the moment.  Again, selected the VCOG because it's closest to my setup, which i feel *in my opinion* is the best way to go.

 

Ringing 8" steel at 200 is not a big feat.  How confident are you shooting 4" plates(or smaller) at 200?  I know, when I shoot 4" plates, at 200, using a magnified glass...it's ridiculously easy.  Regardless, the point is that while you may be able to do it, doesn't mean it's the best way to go. The guys shooting service rifle can make knots at 600yd, using iron sights. Is this the best way to engage a target at 600??

 

*edit-I agree that the high mounted reflex sight sucks.  The 45 degree mount aint muhc better, BUT the idea is that you are only using it for very close engagements and/or close moving targets.  When I say "close", I'm thinking within 20 yds.  At 20 yds, i dont worry about rifle cant causing a miss.

 

Eric

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Jeese Tischauser posted a intresting rumor;

11100230_695208323939225_103622062546697

Heard a rumor today that Trijicon is coming out with a 1-6X upgrade to the TR24 at the NRA show. Supposed to have ballistic reticle options like the ACOG/VCOG possibly. Best part is that it's suppose to come in around $1400 to compete with the class leading Vortex Razor HD II. I loved the illumination and weight of my old TR24G. I can hardly wait!

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Maybe I read you wrong, but your first statement is pretty condescending. What if I asked you "can you even hit the broad side of an elephant's ass"? See what I'm saying?

 

I never tried the VCOG. If anything, I was going with selecting one of the 3 choices that the OP asked us for. He didn't ask us to paint outside of the lines, otherwise, my preference for a 1-6x optic would be the Vortex Razor with the VMR2 MRAD reticle(on my cqb AR) and an EO TEch holo sight on a 45 deg mount, which happens to be what I'm running at the moment. Again, selected the VCOG because it's closest to my setup, which i feel *in my opinion* is the best way to go.

 

Ringing 8" steel at 200 is not a big feat. How confident are you shooting 4" plates(or smaller) at 200? I know, when I shoot 4" plates, at 200, using a magnified glass...it's ridiculously easy. Regardless, the point is that while you may be able to do it, doesn't mean it's the best way to go. The guys shooting service rifle can make knots at 600yd, using iron sights. Is this the best way to engage a target at 600??

 

*edit-I agree that the high mounted reflex sight sucks. The 45 degree mount aint muhc better, BUT the idea is that you are only using it for very close engagements and/or close moving targets. When I say "close", I'm thinking within 20 yds. At 20 yds, i dont worry about rifle cant causing a miss.

 

Eric

1) Wasn't being condescending. I was simply vetting a source of information to see how much value to place on your opinion. I don't know you or your experience. Is your statement based on real world use, competition use, what you read in a magazine, or what you used in a video game. If I don't ask, I don't know. Don't take it personally.

 

2) Keep in mind shooting isn't fighting. OP is looking for advice on a fighting gun not a high power match gun, not a 3gun rifle. His setup has to work on moving targets, in all weather conditions, all lighting conditions, when he has to shit, when he just shit, when he's hungery, thirsty, hurt, and in any body position that will allow him to use cover/concealment well as possible.

 

Someone smarter than me said "The mission drives the gear train". That is as true for a SHTF gun, as it is for a combat gun, a HD gun, a competition gun, or a plinker.

 

Oh, and I don't know about you but I'm not shooting at someone in the SHTF situation at 600 yards. I'm gonna hope they walk right by me and if they get within a couple hundred yards I'll start setting myself up in a position of advantage to defend myself.

 

The 8" disk analogy was due to the general idea that the primary hit zone on an adult human is an approximate 8" circle high in the chest. I use that as my benchmark for accuracy with a RDS at distance from the main shooting positions - prone, standing, sitting/crouching, and kneeling as well as some unconventional shooting positions. If I can do that, I am comfortable with that rifle at those distances for what I want to do with it.

 

For the OPs stated purpose, I would take a quality RDS (Aimpoint T1 preferably, PRO a close second) and a set of binos. I know with a rifle properly zeroed to 50 yards, I can engage targets out to 300 yards with little difficulty. The binos will let me see further in all directions without making me point a rifle at everything I may want to see and appearing as more of a threat than I may have intended.

 

As far as 45degree optics and CQB, what's your offset hold at 10 yards on a hostage rescue shot? Worried about a miss now? I know that's why I don't like them.

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The 1-6x world (and 1-4x) is getting some really tough optics nowadays. I have seen them abused quite a bit in the competition arena, people just chuck them around and treat them like people treat aimpoints in youtube videos.

 

I think we are getting really close to were any reticence regarding their toughness is going to go away (assuming decent examples of the breed, not the cheapest thing you can buy). I think they already just as good as red dots for close range work.

 

That said, my zombie apocalypse gun as a PRO on it, my game gun as a 1-6x. If I could afford two of the Razor's I'd have to make an interesting choice.

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1) Wasn't being condescending. I was simply vetting a source of information to see how much value to place on your opinion. I don't know you or your experience. Is your statement based on real world use, competition use, what you read in a magazine, or what you used in a video game. If I don't ask, I don't know. Don't take it personally.

 

2) Keep in mind shooting isn't fighting. OP is looking for advice on a fighting gun not a high power match gun, not a 3gun rifle. His setup has to work on moving targets, in all weather conditions, all lighting conditions, when he has to shit, when he just shit, when he's hungery, thirsty, hurt, and in any body position that will allow him to use cover/concealment well as possible.

 

Someone smarter than me said "The mission drives the gear train". That is as true for a SHTF gun, as it is for a combat gun, a HD gun, a competition gun, or a plinker.

 

Oh, and I don't know about you but I'm not shooting at someone in the SHTF situation at 600 yards. I'm gonna hope they walk right by me and if they get within a couple hundred yards I'll start setting myself up in a position of advantage to defend myself.

 

The 8" disk analogy was due to the general idea that the primary hit zone on an adult human is an approximate 8" circle high in the chest. I use that as my benchmark for accuracy with a RDS at distance from the main shooting positions - prone, standing, sitting/crouching, and kneeling as well as some unconventional shooting positions. If I can do that, I am comfortable with that rifle at those distances for what I want to do with it.

 

For the OPs stated purpose, I would take a quality RDS (Aimpoint T1 preferably, PRO a close second) and a set of binos. I know with a rifle properly zeroed to 50 yards, I can engage targets out to 300 yards with little difficulty. The binos will let me see further in all directions without making me point a rifle at everything I may want to see and appearing as more of a threat than I may have intended.

 

As far as 45degree optics and CQB, what's your offset hold at 10 yards on a hostage rescue shot? Worried about a miss now? I know that's why I don't like them.

Fair enough, I understand you don't know me from Adam...

 

FWIW, I agree with most of what you say.  I think we have a slight variation in set up preferences.

 

You mentioned "moving targets".  I addressed taht in my original post:

 

"for the 50 yds and closer work,I like a holo/rds, especially if you are dealing with moving targets."

 

The reason why I like the dual optic set up is that I feel it's more flexible.  I know that the OP stated his "mission" was 50yds or closer.  That calls for a very limited rifle.  Outside of LE or Spec Op guys, who only has engagements in that range, exclusively?

Perhaps I havea different definition of SHTF.  For me, a true SHTF gun is not practical.  IT'll mostly be a safe queen.  My CQB AR is more like a 3gun setup-it can be used very well, for CBQ(EO Tech reflex) and I can still reach out a lil further for whatever reason necessary.  either way, it's nice to have the option to use some magnification.

 

You misunderstood my analogy of "shooting iron sights at 600 yds".  The point was that while you can be accurate with irons, most(if not all) are better off with a magnified optic.

 

As far as a 100% SHTF gun, I'll concede that a short, light carbine (or SBR, if you can) with a RDS is the way to go.

 

On a 10 yd hostage situation, shooting with a 45 degree cant, bullet drop, windage, POA vs POI or anything are much less of a factor.  A steady hold would be the biggest factor. But, if it were with my CQB AR, I would simply leave the magnification on 1x and use the scope.  Then agian, this situation is not something that anyone outside of law enforcement should worry too much about.  "SHTF" for civilians is mostly about defense (not offensive engagements), yes?

 

Long story, short.  For SHTF engagements, my sighting progression goes like this (with my set up):

 

Scope-100yds or more

Reflex-20yds to 100yds

Point and shoot-under 20 yds

 

 

Eric

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Also, High Exposure, I know you questioned my knowledge on optics because you don't know me.  Well, I don't know you either but you did post this regarding FFP vs SFP in scopes:

 

"Dumb question, and I think I know the answer, but - what's the difference?

Follow up question, which is better and why?

I am woefully lacking in knowledge regarding magnified optics, especially variable powered models."

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/75954-new-vortex-1-6-optic/#entry962137

 

To answer you question, FFP is "first focal point and SFP= second focal point, with regards to reticles.  It all has to do with ranging a target.  Ranging is a method of calulating the distance of a target by jsut using the reticle, if you know the size of the target.  With FFP, you can range at any magnification.  With SFP, usually you range at full power or half power only.  Any other setting is not accurate with SFP.

 

Whiel both have pluses and minuses, a FFP is generally more desirable.  The only minus wiht FFP is that the reticle gets bigger or smaller, depending on magnification.  At the highest setting, the reticle can get big enough wher it can partially obscure a tiny aimpoint.

 

So, without sounding too confrontational, it appears that you don't know the very basics, regarding scopes/optics.  What am I to think?

 

 

Eric

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My SHTF gun is my HD gun. RDS, bright white light, sling. That's all you need.

 

On a 10 yd hostage situation, shooting with a 45 degree cant, bullet drop, windage, POA vs POI or anything are much less of a factor. A steady hold would be the biggest factor. ...snip... Then agian, this situation is not something that anyone outside of law enforcement should worry too much about. "SHTF" for civilians is mostly about defense (not offensive engagements), yes?

Fighting with a rifle, and especially CQB/FISHing, is what I am trained to do, and I do it pretty well. Thankfully, I have not had to drop the hammer in a real HR or CQB scenario, but I have pointed guns at plenty of bad guys and I was prepared to do it if called upon. Nothing you said above in the portion of your post that I quoted is correct from a CQB standpoint with an AR zeroed at 50 or 100 yards.

 

There is no appreciable bullet drop at 10 yards - the issue is the sights are 2.6" over the line of bore, not that the bullet falls 2.6" in 10 yards. There is no appreciable wind effect at 10 yards. There is no stable stance or steady hold when shooting at small moving targets while on the move. You do the best you can, but you don't usually get to pick your stance/stability.

 

Muzzle and trigger control are crucial, however mechanical offset, or as you referred to it POA v POI, rules the day inside of 25 yards. Knowing your offset holds and correctly estimating them is the single most important factor in making low percentage HR shots. Keep in mind, the closer you are, the greater the offset. When you cant your rifle, you need to adjust your offset hold in the right direction to compensate based in your zero.

 

As far as only LEO and .Mil making HR shots, in a SHTF situation it's all about defense.... until someone wants what you have, and threatens someone you love to get it.

 

Long story, short. For SHTF engagements, my sighting progression goes like this (with my set up):

 

Scope-100yds or more

Reflex-20yds to 100yds

Point and shoot-under 20 yds

 

 

Eric

In HD/SD CQB there is no point and shoot except in weapon retention scenarios. You use your sights and know you will get hits where you want, or you point and shoot planning to fail unless you get lucky. The latter is un-sat. If you don't have time to aim, you really don't have time to miss.

 

ETA: Wait.... you have a scope and and an EOTech at 45deg on the same rifle?

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Also, High Exposure, I know you questioned my knowledge on optics because you don't know me. Well, I don't know you either but you did post this regarding FFP vs SFP in scopes:

 

"Dumb question, and I think I know the answer, but - what's the difference?

 

Follow up question, which is better and why?

 

I am woefully lacking in knowledge regarding magnified optics, especially variable powered models."

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/75954-new-vortex-1-6-optic/#entry962137

 

To answer you question, FFP is "first focal point and SFP= second focal point, with regards to reticles. It all has to do with ranging a target. Ranging is a method of calulating the distance of a target by jsut using the reticle, if you know the size of the target. With FFP, you can range at any magnification. With SFP, usually you range at full power or half power only. Any other setting is not accurate with SFP.

 

Whiel both have pluses and minuses, a FFP is generally more desirable. The only minus wiht FFP is that the reticle gets bigger or smaller, depending on magnification. At the highest setting, the reticle can get big enough wher it can partially obscure a tiny aimpoint.

 

So, without sounding too confrontational, it appears that you don't know the very basics, regarding scopes/optics. What am I to think?

 

 

Eric

I know what FFP and SFP mean. I also know they each have their advantages and disadvantages. What I dont know, because of my limited time behind them, is what will work best for me. I also know what ranging means, thanks. You can valet park the high horse. :) (<- note the smiley, it means I am being lighthearted and not mean)

 

I have done most of my shooting time behind RDS optics. I have had a few DM classes comparing RDS with variable and fixed powered scopes, but they weren't mine. I have taken one carbine course with an ACOG - not recommended. I definitely do not have enough experience to make a fully informed decision on which magnified optic to buy for myself. If you handed me a scoped rifle with either a FFP or SFP I would know how to use it, well past the basic level. What I don't know is which I would choose myself to spend my hard earned cash on.

 

I do know that inside of 100 yards I am faster and more accurate with an RDS than a magnified optic.

 

As an intelligent person, when I don't have enough personal experience or information, I turn to SMEs for advice. I make no bones about it, there are plenty of people here that have more knowledge about variable/magnified optics than me and I will use them to steal their knowledge so I can make a good decision before dropping $2K on an optic.

 

I am not too worried about ranging, as this will be on a 5.56 rifle and I don't plan on shooting farther than a few hundred yards. With a properly zeroed carbine that gives me a +/- 3" spread from POA to POI out to 250 yards. That is precise enough for me. Because of that, I think a SFP optic will work better for my needs.

 

Now back to the OPs own quest for info.

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My SHTF gun is my HD gun. RDS, bright white light, sling. That's all you need.

 

 

Fighting with a rifle, and especially CQB/FISHing, is what I am trained to do, and I do it pretty well. Thankfully, I have not had to drop the hammer in a real HR or CQB scenario, but I have pointed guns at plenty of bad guys and I was prepared to do it if called upon. Nothing you said above in the portion of your post that I quoted is correct from a CQB standpoint with an AR zeroed at 50 or 100 yards.

 

There is no appreciable bullet drop at 10 yards - the issue is the sights are 2.6" over the line of bore, not that the bullet falls 2.6" in 10 yards. There is no appreciable wind effect at 10 yards. There is no stable stance or steady hold when shooting at small moving targets while on the move. You do the best you can, but you don't usually get to pick your stance/stability.

 

Muzzle and trigger control are crucial, however mechanical offset, or as you referred to it POA v POI, rules the day inside of 25 yards. Knowing your offset holds and correctly estimating them is the single most important factor in making low percentage HR shots. Keep in mind, the closer you are, the greater the offset. When you cant your rifle, you need to adjust your offset hold in the right direction to compensate based in your zero.

 

As far as only LEO and .Mil making HR shots, in a SHTF situation it's all about defense.... until someone wants what you have, and threatens someone you love to get it.

 

 

In HD/SD CQB there is no point and shoot except in weapon retention scenarios. You use your sights and know you will get hits where you want, or you point and shoot planning to fail unless you get lucky. The latter is un-sat. If you don't have time to aim, you really don't have time to miss.

For some reason, you are trying to discredit me and failing.

 

We both said the same things i.e.poa vs poi or mechanical offset.

 

You keep focusing on the hostage situation, which ive already conceded that only guys like you train regularly for this situation. Thing is, if the SHTF, most civilians, whether the rifle is canted or not, are not in a good spot to engage. Mechaical offset is the least of their problems. You keep focusing on a tiny, esoteric situation.

 

I get that you may be trained in cqb situations. Possibly. One thing for sure, you know very little about scopes. Sorry.

 

 

Eric

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