justifiable need?

[1LtCAP 4,263]

just a quick question.......

 

nj2as page on farcebook and some discussion e few days ago about the justifiable need thing expiring this past week? i can't find it over there, and to be honest, didn't go looking here(beyond the first page in the heading).......so did they let it expire, or was it re-adopted?

[PK90 3,570]

They let it expire so that everyone can get a CCW.

 

 

 

 

 

[mipafox 438]

They don't care what the code says.

[Midwest 28]

Could Christie, in theory (if he wanted to) make an executive order said self defense is a valid reason for justifiable need? Or make an executive order that takes out the justifiable need out of the requirements. Or order it to expire and not get it readopted?

 

If he could not, (but he wanted to). Then why?

[1LtCAP 4,263]

They let it expire so that everyone can get a CCW.

 

 

 

 

 

welllll you know.....i hadda ask. 

 

They don't care what the code says.

good point

 

Could Christie, in theory (if he wanted to) make an executive order said self defense is a valid reason for justifiable need? Or make an executive order that takes out the justifiable need out of the requirements. Or order it to expire and not get it readopted?

 

If he could not, (but he wanted to). Then why?

i think he can. wasn't the justifiable need thing put in there by eo to begin with?

[M1152 713]

Could Christie, in theory (if he wanted to) make an executive order said self defense is a valid reason for justifiable need? Or make an executive order that takes out the justifiable need out of the requirements. Or order it to expire and not get it readopted?

 

 

i think he can. wasn't the justifiable need thing put in there by eo to begin with?

Don’t know but there is nothing to stop him from championing the cause like he did for the NJ pension reform and now throwing SS reform around for his presidential aspirations.  IIRC and don't know if its true but someone here on the forum stated all he has to do is advise the AG (State Attorney General) to amend the existing language and it would then fly but I don’t anyone in this state has the balls for it.

[jtd771 18]

Don’t know but there is nothing to stop him from championing the cause like he did for the NJ pension reform and now throwing SS reform around for his presidential aspirations.  IIRC and don't know if its true but someone here on the forum stated all he has to do is advise the AG (State Attorney General) to amend the existing language and it would then fly but I don’t anyone in this state has the balls for it.

Only while CC still thinks he's got a shot to win in 2016 and only if he's confronted in the presence of news cameras with a direct question about why self defense is not a justifiable need for a CCW permit in NJ but is elsewhere in the country, will he ever consider or make a statement about considering directing the AG to change the requirements.  Until then, he is just as supportive as are the rest of our political leaders in this state to keep the system the way it is.  

[boo 6]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the AG can only direct prosecutors to stop opposing CCWs on the lack of justifable need. Judges still have the final say and I don't think they're bound by administrative code.

[DeerSlayer 241]

I could sware I remember reading someplace, or hearing on GFH radio that Alexander Roubian, was having a meeting with Chris Christy to discuss this subject. It was a month or 2 ago. I don't know if that meeting took place or not, and if it did what the answer was from the governor. Anyone else recall this?

[M1152 713]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the AG can only direct prosecutors to stop opposing CCWs on the lack of justifable need. Judges still have the final say and I don't think they're bound by administrative code.

Then that’s probably it then and why from time to time bills get introduced to from 2A friendly politicians to reform the law. It may need to be done legislatively and as we know the bills never advance.

 

 

Sorry for the political comment in earlier post , I don’t want to torpedo the thread into 1A

[Midwest 28]

I could sware I remember reading someplace, or hearing on GFH radio that Alexander Roubian, was having a meeting with Chris Christy to discuss this subject. It was a month or 2 ago. I don't know if that meeting took place or not, and if it did what the answer was from the governor. Anyone else recall this?

I saw a thread here on NJ Gun Forums that CC (when he was replying to some question)  he said "New Jersey is Special" .  I don't remember the context of what the question and answer was about or the thread.

[mipafox 438]

I saw a thread here on NJ Gun Forums that CC (when he was replying to some question)  he said "New Jersey is Special" .  I don't remember the context of what the question and answer was about or the thread.

If it's the quote I am thinking of, it was population density in Jersey is too high. That old nonsense. Ignoring that most of Jersey is empty space, because we all know handgun bullets fired in cities cross the 100 mile longest distance to the furthest NJ border. They don't travel 10 feet or 100 yards tops in a city. But even if they did, we know there are more people within 10 feet of you in any city in Jersey at all times than there are in all other cities in the country /sarcasm.

[Kevin125 4,772]

I could find nothing about that part of the law/code expiring.

 

Regarding Christie and EO's, I heard him on the radio, back after Sandy Hook, say that he supports an "all of the above" approach to gun violence.  He rattled off... "new laws, mental health, background checks".... and used the term "sensible".  What I got from that is he is not likely to undo any firearm law in NJ.  He did execute the veto, but that was new law.  I just don't see him every fixing anything.  If he was going to do something, we'd already be talking about how awesome it was that he did it....  and we're not talking about it.

[maintenanceguy 510]

There are two parts to the law.  The Statute, passed by the legislature, says you need "justifiable need".  The Administrative Code, written by NJ's various departments defines "justifiable need".   The Admin. Code is supposed to be the procedures that the different agencies and departments will follow to comply with the statute.

• In 1971, Siccardi sued NJ because they said he didn't have "justifiable need". The judge said that NJ's requirement for justifiable need was valid because (1) The second amendment protects a collective right of the states to have militias, not an individual right to bear arms.  and (2) The 2nd amendment doesn't apply to the states anyway.  It only applies to the federal government.  So NJ can continue to infringe on the right.  The judge also came up with a silly definition that basically said you had to be dead to have justifiable need.  Siccardi lost.
• in 1991, the Dept. of Law and Public Safety adopted the judge's silly definition into the administrative code.  Since the supreme court had never ruled on whether it is an individual right or on whether it applied to the states, maybe NJ had a legitimate legal argument.
• In 2008, SCOTUS ruled in Heller that the second amendment protects an individual right.
• in 2010, SCOTUS ruled in McDonald that the second amendment applies to to the states

So, NJ's definition of justifiable need is no longer legally valid.  In fact, in Heller SCOTUS said that the second amendment "guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation” and that “central to” this right is “the inherent right of self-defense”.

 

The NJ Statute gives the governor the authority to alter the administrative code and he is obligated to make sure that his departments are in compliance with the law.  Currently the law, as established by the US Supreme Court, says that the individual has the right to possess and carry weapons for self defense in case of confrontation.

 

So yes,the governor can change the administrative code and, in my opinion, is in violation of the law if he does not.

 

That doesn't mean the courts would go along since the rule of law does not apply in NJ courts.

[maintenanceguy 510]

To the OP's question about whether "justifiable need expired".  We should know on Monday.  The administrative code gets re-adopted every 7 years.  It expired on May 12th.   The proposed changes were posted a couple of months ago and there was a 60 public comment period that ended on February 13th. 

 

Notices of re-adoption are published in the NJ Register every 2 weeks.  It was not in May 4th edition.  It may have been readopted in the last 2 weeks.  We will know on Monday when the new edition comes out.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

If it turns out that "justifiable need" was allowed to expire, the antis will poop their pants!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

How about we all take a look at:  www.justifiableNeed.com to learn some more!

 

Dave

CNJFO VP-Secretary