Transport - One reason why people don't understand the law

[Kevin125 4,772]

In a conversation with an NRA Intructor in a classroom, the topic of transporting firearms in NJ came up.  I went over my undestanding of what's required and what's not required.  Then the instructor said what he believed to be the law for transport.  Here's what he said that was different from what I am certain is NJ law.

 

 

- In a pickup truck of other type of car without a trunk or isolated storage area similar to a trunk, a long gun must be cased and the case must be locked or tied shut. Like with a luggage lock or a string. 

 

- To transport a long gun, you must have your FPID on you and you can only transport the long gun to and from a range, shop, gunsmith, or some other place where use or possession is lawful.

 

- If the long gun is in the trunk, it still must be cased.

 

- He also said something about because of some sort of mistake made when the law was written, you don't need you FPID to transport a handgun, but the rules of storage in the vehicle and where it can be transported to are the same as a long gun.

 

 

I didn't argue the points.  "New Guy to Handguns" VS "NRA Instructor" seemed like a pointless exercise.  But the point of this post is that even among people who are pretty damned experienced, understanding of what the law is seems to be all over the map.  And since in this case, I'm talking about an instructor, new people to shooting are getting information that, as far as I know, doesn't jive with the actual law.

[Midwest 28]

Speaking as an outsider, I'm still surprised that the gun transport laws have not been challenged as unconstitutionally vague, subject to interpretation and could not be enforced fairly. Maybe the answer could be is to support legislation that says if a law (any law)  is not spelled out clearly, then the law is invalid. What do I know?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Where did you take the course? This instructor needs to be corrected. Part of the problem in NJ is dissemination of incorrect firearm legal information. If you are not sure, STFU.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Kevin125 4,772]

Speaking as an outsider, I'm still surprised that the gun transport laws have not been challenged as unconstitutionally vague, subject to interpretation and could not be enforced fairly. Maybe the answer could be is to support legislation that says if a law (any law)  is not spelled out clearly, then the law is invalid. What do I know?

 

I don't know how that would all play out.  Makes sense on some level to me.  If a law is ambiguous, how can it be expected to be understood by the people it applies to?

 

But I think if you break down what's written about transport into what the law says and what it applies to, it becomes clear enough.  But if you're not clear on what it is you're actually reading, it may look like you need to do something you are not required by law to do.   A lot of people read the transport "into" and "through" the state info from the NJSP site and think it applies to transport within the state.  As I read it, it doesn't.

 

Bob....  When I'm back where I took the course I'll take it up one on one with the guy.  The classroom wasn't the right place to have the debate.  Unfortunate for the other people there, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

[maintenanceguy 510]

The instructor was wrong on many points.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/76747-got-my-first-3-firearms/?view=findpost&p=973864

[Taipan 0]

Speaking as an outsider, I'm still surprised that the gun transport laws have not been challenged as unconstitutionally vague, subject to interpretation and could not be enforced fairly. Maybe the answer could be is to support legislation that says if a law (any law)  is not spelled out clearly, then the law is invalid. What do I know?

 

This is New Jersey.   The Constitution does not apply.

[Kevin125 4,772]

This is New Jersey.   The Constitution does not apply.

 

For the most part, laws in this state are intended to protect the gov't at the expense of the citizens.  Sounds like 16th century England.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

NJSA 2C:39-5.c. Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

 

so according to that part, one upon moving here must get an fpid before they can go shooting?

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Read the Exemptions in 2C:39-6, especially f(1)

[maintenanceguy 510]

NJSA 2C:39-5.c. Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

 

so according to that part, one upon moving here must get an fpid before they can go shooting?

 

Not exactly.  in my post here:  I list the different parts of the law out of order.

 

The law actually says:

 

You can't possess a firearm - unless it's a shotgun and rifle and you have an FID.

 

later it lists the exemptions to that rule (it's okay to transport without an FID between home, range, gun shop, place of business, land owned by you, etc.).

[Kevin125 4,772]

There's also a thread in this forum from 2011 that beats to death everything about transport.

 

It can be confusing if you don't read all of the law on transport and don't realize what the context is of each part of the law. But I plan to find out if the instructor actually believes what he says or he says it so people will just go overboard with how they transport and stay out of trouble with a LEO that doesn't know the law. Either way, I don't think its a good thing to be doing.

 

The instructor was otherwise really good. Which is why I was a little surprised when he got into transport in NJ. He's from NJ by the way.

[Tunaman 548]

Your FID is also a license to carry so he is wrong. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

with all due respect the transport laws are clear... and the classroom is the perfect place to discuss this as long as you take the conversation in the correct tone, during the right time... people teaching take the challenge of information in one of two ways... they accept that they don't know everything ever and learn something themselves.. or they dislike being challenged... either way the situation is resolved in a positive way.. the incorrect info is corrected the person teaching learns (and no longer spews incorrect info), and the people attending the class leave there informed.. you generally want to confront the instructor during a break so that the human nature to defend oneself in front of others doesn't take over... then after the break the instructor could come back and correct himself..

 

I have made challenges in the past in firearms classes over "assault weapons".. the instructor could immediately tell I had invested a ton of time in reading and understanding the law.. and was receptive to the info I was giving...

 

if you are going to opt to be an instructor in NJ.. and educate others.. when it comes to guns.. you better know WTF you are talking about... and if you don't.. then you NEED to be corrected..

[mipafox 438]

You can't possess a firearm - unless it's a shotgun and rifle and you have an FID.

 

later it lists the exemptions to that rule (it's okay to transport without an FID between home, range, gun shop, place of business, land owned by you, etc.).

with all due respect the transport laws are clear...

Most of you know this, but this is a good opportunity to remind everybody how these laws work. There really aren't transport laws. There are possession laws. You are allowed to possess certain types of firearms at certain places depending on your licensee or lack thereof (FID or handgun carry). For instance, there are no transport laws that restrict transport in New Jersey. You are not "legally transporting." You are legally possessing. And the legal place you are possessing is between your point of origin and your destination.

 

2C:39-6e Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

6e provides exceptions on the ban of possession (39-5b, c, and d). It provides no exceptions on ban of transportation, because there is no ban on transportation. The reason you can't transport simply because you can't possess. 6e happens to allow you to possess between points of origin and destinations.

 

2C:39-6g All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

 

6g is merely additional requirements when traveling from one place to another once you have established a legal exception to possess a firearm at the place between your origin and your destination. It does not authorize you to possess or transport in and of itself.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

NJSA 2C:39-5.c. Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

 

so according to that part, one upon moving here must get an fpid before they can go shooting?

Not exactly.  And here we go again.  You have to read these laws as "A + B = C"  "A" is where it says it's illegal.  "B" is where it says it's EXEMPTED.  "C" is the NET TRUTH.

 

And believe it or not, if most of you would simply join a club that has shooting leagues that draw shooters from OUT OF STATE to shoot hand guns, rifles and scatterguns in NJ, by simply attending these League Matches you would learn the possession and transport laws!  And yes, transport is actually possession.  We have folks from Connecticut to Virginia who routinely show-up at monthly hand gun Matches.  They're NOT NJ residents.  How do they do this w/o a NJ FID?  Answer:  EXEMPTIONS! 

 

Everyone has to wrap their heads around the fact that all firearms in NJ are illegal, and therefore only exist in the hands of the public through EXCEPTIONS AND EXEMPTIONS.  So stop asking if it's illegal, and start reading the EXEMPTIONS verbatim, w/o adding or subtracting any words at all.  And watch the punctuation and the words "OR", "AND", etc.  Right now I can park my car in my driveway, throw 100 unloaded, uncased, unprotected, un-trigger-locked WEAPONS OF DEATH (evil HAND GUNS) into the trunk of my sedan and once I close the trunk deck lid, they're all considered SECURE by the NJSP for INTRA-STATE transport......  Once I arrive at an EXEMPT LOCATION, I can wrap them naked guns in brown craft paper and tie them securely with bakery string or duct tape, then carry them into any EXEMPT LOCATION:  Range, FFL, my place of business(s), my residences (NO LIMIT ON NUMBER--have a Beach House or 4?  NO problem), even patrol a vacant lot or piece of woods.  The trick is to not make any suppositions, just read it verbatim, SLOWLY, and with the proper punctuation's as printed.

 

Who's got the Staples Button...........THAT WAS EASY!

[Guest]

This thread reminds me how glad I am that I'm one day closer to leaving this effed up state

[mipafox 438]

And believe it or not, if most of you would simply join a club that has shooting leagues that draw shooters from OUT OF STATE to shoot hand guns, rifles and scatterguns in NJ, by simply attending these League Matches you would learn the possession and transport laws!

Why would we want to shoot with shifty New Yorkers?

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

 When I'm back where I took the course I'll take it up one on one with the guy.  The classroom wasn't the right place to have the debate.  Unfortunate for the other people there, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

That's usually a wise course of action, rather than engaging in a debate with the instructor.  

 

Would anyone know if NRA instructor training involves learning the laws of the specific state?  

[Kevin125 4,772]

That's usually a wise course of action, rather than engaging in a debate with the instructor.  

 

Would anyone know if NRA instructor training involves learning the laws of the specific state?  

 

I don't know the answer to whether it's part of their training.   Should be, but may not be. 

 

One thing I didn't say in this thread was that transport wasn't part of the course.  It was something someone asked about and he said once we finished our 50 question quiz, he'd go over how to legally transport in NJ.

 

 

And.....  all of the laws/statues are in this Pinned thread by vladtepes.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/29389-read-before-posting-nj-gun-law-faq/

 

It wasn't my intention to start another "how do we transport" thread.  That horse was beaten to death, tossed off a bridge, run over by a train, burned to ashes and launched into space.

[Kevin125 4,772]

with all due respect the transport laws are clear... and the classroom is the perfect place to discuss this as long as you take the conversation in the correct tone, during the right time... people teaching take the challenge of information in one of two ways... they accept that they don't know everything ever and learn something themselves.. or they dislike being challenged... either way the situation is resolved in a positive way.. the incorrect info is corrected the person teaching learns (and no longer spews incorrect info), and the people attending the class leave there informed.. you generally want to confront the instructor during a break so that the human nature to defend oneself in front of others doesn't take over... then after the break the instructor could come back and correct himself..

 

I have made challenges in the past in firearms classes over "assault weapons".. the instructor could immediately tell I had invested a ton of time in reading and understanding the law.. and was receptive to the info I was giving...

 

if you are going to opt to be an instructor in NJ.. and educate others.. when it comes to guns.. you better know WTF you are talking about... and if you don't.. then you NEED to be corrected..

 

Vlad, I agree he needs to be corrected, but I wasn't prepared to have the debate and we were already an hour over time.  I would liked to have had printed copies of the law so I could point out why I was correct, but I didn't so it seemed to me it was going to be a situation where he was certain of what he thought I had nothing other than what I said to prove him wrong.  I've been mostly disconnected from the firearms/shooting world for about 30 years. I wasn't going to convince him or anyone else without some factual support.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

QUESTION. if all firearms are illegal in nj, with exemptions? does that not put nj's laws at odds witht he constitution? and if so, are they not then illegal, and unenforceable?

[mipafox 438]

QUESTION. if all firearms are illegal in nj, with exemptions? does that not put nj's laws at odds witht he constitution? and if so, are they not then illegal, and unenforceable?

Because you haven't gotten a million NJ residents to ask that question yet.

[DeerSlayer 241]

 

 

 

 

- In a pickup truck of other type of car without a trunk or isolated storage area similar to a trunk, a long gun must be cased and the case must be locked or tied shut. Like with a luggage lock or a string.

 

Wrong, unless your going hunting, and the case need not be locked.

 

- To transport a long gun, you must have your FPID on you and you can only transport the long gun to and from a range, shop, gunsmith, or some other place where use or possession is lawful.

 

Wrong, with a FPID you're not subject to transport within the exemptions.

Transport without a FPID you must follow the same exempt locations and only "reasonable deviations" the same as our handgun transportation laws.

 

- If the long gun is in the trunk, it still must be cased.

Also false, dosent even need to be cased inside the passenger compartment either, as long as it's unloaded it's legal to transport un cased unless your going hunting.

 

- He also said something about because of some sort of mistake made when the law was written, you don't need you FPID to transport a handgun, but the rules of storage in the vehicle and where it can be transported to are the same as a long gun.

 

Wrong again.

 

 

 

 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

QUESTION. if all firearms are illegal in nj, with exemptions? does that not put nj's laws at odds witht he constitution? and if so, are they not then illegal, and unenforceable?

You've got the lightbulb shining brightly, so congrats to you!  Yes, you are of course correct.  NJ residents are presumed guilty until proven innocent thru exemptions.  Yes it's completely absurd and against common sense and the US Constitution.  But I don't think you wanna be the Test Case, right?

[siderman 1,137]

"All firearms in NJ are illegal" prior to the exemptions. Can someone point that out where its written in NJ law/code/statute etc? I may have seen it at one time and certainly have heard it enough but cant seem to find it whenever this topic comes up.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

Because you haven't gotten a million NJ residents to ask that question yet.

PERHAPS then we need to start publicizing that question before we even try for ccw, or changing anything else, as bringing that to light should eliminate everything else?

[DeerSlayer 241]

"All firearms in NJ are illegal" prior to the exemptions. Can someone point that out where its written in NJ law/code/statute etc? I may have seen it at one time and certainly have heard it enough but cant seem to find it whenever this topic comes up.

They don't say it in the law in those exact words. But it's definitely what it says in the law. The only time you may be in possession of a firearm in NJ, is when you're within an exempt location. It's never your constitutional right to keep and bare arms in NJ. You still need a FPID card to possess a long gun outside the exemptions. Which is an infringement on the 2nd amendment.

[mipafox 438]

PERHAPS then we need to start publicizing that question before we even try for ccw, or changing anything else, as bringing that to light should eliminate everything else?

I don't know what has to be done before what, or if that is even a consideration, but I know that is a thing that needs doing.

 

An not JUST Jersey residents. Remember, we get more and better press, and sympathy from the legal system (governors and AGs) outside NJ than inside. So we need to shake Jersey subjects like a British nanny but we need to spread the bad word far and wide as well.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

There were two precepts to the writing of NJ Firearms Law - One that firearms ownership, as defined in the second amendment, is a collective right, not an individual one. And, two, that federal law (the constitution) does not apply to the states.

 

The Heller decision put paid to the first precept and the McDonald decision did the same to the second. So all of NJ firearms law is based on premises that have been overturned by the Supreme Court. Why has not someone challenged all of NJ firearms law based on that???

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Kevin125 4,772]

They don't say it in the law in those exact words. But it's definitely what it says in the law. The only time you may be in possession of a firearm in NJ, is when you're within an exempt location. It's never your constitutional right to keep and bare arms in NJ. You still need a FPID card to possess a long gun outside the exemptions. Which is an infringement on the 2nd amendment.

 

The people who like our firearms laws, whoever they are, will say..."these laws don't prevent you from possessing a firearm, they simply say that to do so, you need this card."  And judges will support them.

 

Try to tell them that about voting.  "Voter ID laws don't prevent citizens from voting, they just say you have to prove who you are to be allowed to vote.  We'll even give you an ID for free if you can prove your identity and citizenship status."  

 

...Then you will see absolute hysteria unfold.