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Zeke

Need a favor

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My client has a lawyer buddy. I'm in the process of renovating his second home in nj.

Client was a fudd. Now is going more pro 2a( it's hard work guys, he's been a client of mine a long time) jus got his FL carry.

 

Client asked lawyer buddy about the legalityif he and his wife can take their hand guns from their one nj home to the other Nj home. Lawyer buddy is no Nappen. He said illegal.

I'm not a lawyer.

Can one of you 2c ninga's post a link to the specific " to and from range, place of business, property"

 

Thanks in advance. Bad information about our laws should be nipped in the bud

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It is unlawful to knowingly have in your possession a:

1. Handgun, including any antique handgun, without first obtaining a Permit to Carry. No distinction is drawn between carrying openly or concealed.

2. Rifle or shotgun without first obtaining a FID card. It is Illegal to carry a loaded shotgun or rifle in any vehicle

 

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a

fixed location.

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It is unlawful to knowingly have in your possession a:

1. Handgun, including any antique handgun, without first obtaining a Permit to Carry. No distinction is drawn between carrying openly or concealed.

2. Rifle or shotgun without first obtaining a FID card. It is Illegal to carry a loaded shotgun or rifle in any vehicle

 

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a

fixed location.

Thanks mxer

"residence and another when moving" they aren't moving. They own both and 1 is a holiday weekender.....

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It does say property

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him!

 

If you own two properties or residences and you are permitted to carry in both. How could you not be legal in proper transport between those 2 exempted locations??? If you owned 100 homes in NJ and wanted

to carry in each while staying there, you can!  Just because the law does not specifically say "if you own 100 residences" does not make it illegal!  IANAL, but I do think I am on very solid ground here!

 

Also, if you "Move",

: to cause (something or someone) to go from one place or position to another

: to go from one place or position to another

: to cause (your body or a part of your body) to go from one position to another

You move from one location to another! If you do not move, you are stationary and thus not moving!

 

The statute names the exempted places to can travel to and from but not every combination possible!

Your home is exempted, if you happen to own two homes, they are exempted locations and transport between the two is legal!

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It is unlawful to knowingly have in your possession a:

1. Handgun, including any antique handgun, without first obtaining a Permit to Carry. No distinction is drawn between carrying openly or concealed.

2. Rifle or shotgun without first obtaining a FID card. It is Illegal to carry a loaded shotgun or rifle in any vehicle

 

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a

fixed location.

Nice job Kevin.  You have learned well!

 

And to the OP Zeke:  Hurricane Sandy hit LBI.  Hard.  But NJSP didn't issue warrants or arrest anybody for having guns at their beach homes (lots of folks own more than one residence).  Instead local Cops told home owners to get to high ground and take guns with them if they could.  To parents, family, virtually ANY place they could find shelter!  Even leave them in your car's trunk if you had to so as to "secure" them!  So scavengers wouldn't find them with metal detectors where dwellings once stood.......  TRUE STORY!

 

SEE THE WHOLE BOARD!

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Cops can and have provided direction in contrast to written law, especially when done in the interest of the larger community. That does not guarantee same / similar protections in a different situation. They can and will choose to prosecute under different circumstances. 

 

Unless someone can show a written law to the contrary, OPs client lawyer buddy is right.  

 

Will they prosecute an otherwise lawabiding Joe for such thing ? there is only one way to find out..

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The law specifically says any land owned or possessed "place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him", it doesn't specify how many residences or how many businesses, it states residence, business, premises or other land owned or possessed.  How can they possibly prosecute?  You can have as many houses or businesses, as long as you own them, they are all exempt locations.

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^^^^^EXACTLY^^^^^

 

IMHO correct interpretation of these statutes can only be accomplished when one uses correct punctuation.  

 

Put it another way, say I own several houses and belong to several private gun clubs.  I can have guns at each house "staged" and stored there.  In fact, I can elect to store certain specific discipline guns (O/U scattergun for Sporting Clays, USPSA race gun for a CJ Match, HD Remmy 870 tacticooled-out, my SASS guns, my bullseye guns, etc.) at various houses I own so I can compete at events within a smaller driving distance to each dwelling.  The law doesn't specify my guns have to be stored at my voting address, permanent address, or make any other restriction upon my rights.

 

Folks here need to stop giving "opinions", and instead need to concern themselves only with FACTS.  Since there is NO mandatory registration there is NOT any need for a specific piece of your collection to be at a specific address waiting for the gestapo to come and inspect and ask for your papers! 

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I own several investment properties that are rented out.  Is there any valid interpretation of the statue that would allow me to carry when I'm at one of them?  That would imply that I could transport between them...

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Every interpretation of these things  is an "opinion" unless backed up by a specific case law that matches exact scenario and circumstances. Even what NJSP tells you is only an opinion. We can beat this bush all day, but the write FACT is,  section e that Kevin125 quoted goes to great lengths enumerating possibilities, including - "between one place of business or residence and another when moving, "

 

They could have left that "when moving" part out.. , but they didnt. Who knows what authors was thinking ? 

 

Lets not mix "storing", "staging" with  carrying (transporting) from/to between different locations.  There is no limitation to number of properties / places one can own and accordingly store and carry at that location (subject to any other limitations).  But how do you get your handguns to that location, is another matter. 

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Lasr three guys missed the OP point. Two dwellings illegal to tansport BETWEEN the two?

 

Not from a range to a dwelling, from work to a dwelling, from store to a dwelling

 

His lawyer friend said you are illegal driving from one dwelling to the next with a gun.

 

So then you ask "well how the heck do i transport to get it to my second dwelling in the first place? He would say you have to stop at a permitted location first on the way according to that law.

 

(I'm not taking a side just clearinh up the OP question)

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Thanks mxer

"residence and another when moving" they aren't moving. They own both and 1 is a holiday weekender.....

Did you mean motocross? If so.. Yes... And very welcome.

 

Thnx Smokin.50. I figured i post the law and not opine on it.

 

But i have an urge to opine now....

 

The thing about many lawyers and cops is... When they offer an opinion about gun law.. Or any law for that matter... They will usually tell you what they are certain won't get you in trouble. And also with police, they'll sometimes tell you what they'd LIKE the law to mean.

 

http://www.gtpd.org/pdf%20files/New%20Jersey%20Firearms%20Laws.pdf

 

The part of that statute that makes it confusing is the phrase "when moving". Without that phrase, its 100% clear that you can transport between businesses or between residences. It doesn't make sense that it would be restricted to times when you sell a business or residence and are at that specific moment when you are vacating one property for good, never to return, and on you way to another. What if its a seasonal move? Or a weekend "move". Also, how is a permitted location allowed if there's no way to get there?

 

2C does not define moving, residence or dwelling that I can find. Those definitions may be part of other NJ law. But they're not here.

 

It also doesn't make sense that the law would requires a contrivance where you go from home 1 to a range then to home 2. But does not allow going from home 1 directly to home 2 while abiding by transport requirements of subsection "g" . It serves no rational purpose.

None.

 

So I see how it reads, but it's illogical and inconsistent.

 

Yeah... I know... That would make it typical of most NJ laws....

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So what you are saying is that we can store and carry guns in all our homes, all our businesses, and pretty much any property we own but we are only allowed to transport between home and business and not between all the other properties?  That makes absolutely no sense, even for NJ.  How about from store to range or range to range or range to business or business to a range or store to a business, etc...?  These are not enumerated either but nobody says that's illegal.

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So what you are saying is that we had store and carry guns in all our homes, all our businesses, and pretty much any property we own but we are only allowed to transport between home and business and not between all the other properties? That makes absolutely no sense, even for NJ. How about from store to range or range to range or range to business or business to a range or store to a business, etc...? These are not enumerated either but nobody says that's illegal.

Good point.

 

Range to range. Or gunsmith to gunsmith.....

 

JohnnyB mentioned transport between exempted locations. Wasn't there something that says you can transport between those locations where lawful possession exists? Thought that was written somewhere. Maybe in SP guidelines. Can't look right now. In scum ridden NYC subway.

 

Edit: or maybe that applies (if it exists) to long guns.

 

In any case, as we know (and I've been reminded here) the law doesn't allow things... it prohibits things.  And in the case of handguns we have this.

 

2C:39-5. Unlawful Possession of Weapons.

b. Handguns.

 Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

 

For long guns we have this.

 

c. Rifles and shotguns.   

(1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S. 2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree

(2) Unless otherwise permitted by law, any person who knowingly has in his possession any loaded rifle or shotgun is guilty  of a crime of the third degree.

 

 

The obvious difference is we can get the FPID.  We can't get the CCW permit.

 

So for handguns, we are like those who own long guns but do not have a FPID and subject to the "exemptions" or broader federal law where they apply.

So the question.... which is the OPs questions really... is there anything else in the law that creates exemptions for people like us (non LEO, Active Mil, guards, etc) to transport (possess) a handgun from exempted locations in other than the order written in 2C:39-5 (e) ???

 

Because I believe a P2P only grants that.. the P2P a handgun.  It does nothing else other than designating you as the owner of the handgun.

 

But then there was this thread on "can my wife use my handgun?".  Where in the law does is say to transport a handgun, you have to be the registered purchaser? And if that exists, does it say anything else?  Rhetorical questions.. I'll go look.

 

Our laws are a pain in the ass by the way.

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2C:39-6, subsection f  talks about ranges -  "....in going to or from a place of target practice...."  .  So range to range could be satisfied, as you are going TO the second range. 

 

Slightly offtopic, but the dreaded (locked, direct to / from etc) subsection (g)  only talks about b(2), e and f(1,3).  It does not seem to apply to subsection f(4).   Not that its useful for a regular Joe, but....

 

----------------------------------

Subsection f(4):

       (4)A person from keeping or carrying about a private or commercial aircraft or any boat, or from transporting to or from such vessel for the purpose of installation or repair a visual distress signaling device approved by the United States Coast Guard.

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Cops can and have provided direction in contrast to written law, especially when done in the interest of the larger community. That does not guarantee same / similar protections in a different situation. They can and will choose to prosecute under different circumstances. 

 

Unless someone can show a written law to the contrary, OPs client lawyer buddy is right.  

 

Will they prosecute an otherwise lawabiding Joe for such thing ? there is only one way to find out..

If you are correct will you please show me the plethora of people arrested for transporting firearms from one property they own to another they own? If you are correct ypu should be able to find hundreds if not thousands of cases like you describe.

 

NJ gun laws suck. The main reason is they try to list all the things you can do vs most laws that tell you what you can't do. If a law doesn't say something is illegal it's legal.

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Part of the problem here is reading the statute about "moving" when NO ONE is actually MOVING!  So if you're not MOVING, then skip it and go on to what does apply.  I can skip the AW list section, MG section, silencer section, threaded barrel section, sawed-off scattergun section, destructive device section, etc., etc., and still be in compliance through various other EXEMPTIONS written into the laws.  GRIZ is 1,000% correct^^^^^!

 

Part of the reason we don't hear about much about transporting hand guns (since I can take my trunk-load of long guns anywhere 'cept a school or military base) from one house to the other is because rich folks don't hang-out on gun forums talkin' SH!T about what they do, lol.  They're too F-ing busy makin' money to pay NJ real estate taxes to be concerned with what we think (our opinions).  Only a Fudd would interpret the NJ Gun Laws to mean that while living in their multi-million dollar beachfront home in (you pick the town) that they'd have to reside there for days, weeks, months or years w/o any means of self-protection.  If you think for a moment that Dr. and Mrs. Joe Blow are going to drive back to Bergen County to retrieve their hand guns and then take them directly to a local gunsmith or FFL in the same town/area as their beach house, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.  Additionally, same goes for "stopping at a range's parking lot" or any other such foolish thing.  Also, the guy who busted his A$$ his entire life to get the bungalow "down the Shore" is entitled to the SAME rights and considerations as the multi-millionaire!   

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I believe that it's legal to transport home to home.  Range to range.  Shop to shop.  Was looking to see if something explicit was there.  But I think it's more implicit.  I don't want to invent laws that are more restrictive, etc etc... Just managing some risk, which I think was the OPs motivation.

 

This would be one of those things that a motivated politician could be ask to do. Clarify the law so we aren't being harassed or arrest for things that aren't illegal.  It's off topic, so let's not go there in this thread.  Just pointing it out.

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Part of the problem here is reading the statute about "moving" when NO ONE is actually MOVING!  So if you're not MOVING, then skip it and go on to what does apply.  I can skip the AW list section, MG section, silencer section, threaded barrel section, sawed-off scattergun section, destructive device section, etc., etc., and still be in compliance through various other EXEMPTIONS written into the laws.  GRIZ is 1,000% correct^^^^^!

 

Part of the reason we don't hear about much about transporting hand guns (since I can take my trunk-load of long guns anywhere 'cept a school or military base) from one house to the other is because rich folks don't hang-out on gun forums talkin' SH!T about what they do, lol.  They're too F-ing busy makin' money to pay NJ real estate taxes to be concerned with what we think (our opinions).  Only a Fudd would interpret the NJ Gun Laws to mean that while living in their multi-million dollar beachfront home in (you pick the town) that they'd have to reside there for days, weeks, months or years w/o any means of self-protection.  If you think for a moment that Dr. and Mrs. Joe Blow are going to drive back to Bergen County to retrieve their hand guns and then take them directly to a local gunsmith or FFL in the same town/area as their beach house, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.  Additionally, same goes for "stopping at a range's parking lot" or any other such foolish thing.  Also, the guy who busted his A$$ his entire life to get the bungalow "down the Shore" is entitled to the SAME rights and considerations as the multi-millionaire!   

 

No doubt. I agree.  But we have guys like this lawyer in the OPs Post#1 who is telling the guy he can't take his pistols from house 1 to house 2.  Then we try to explain why he can, and it's not exactly crystal clear.  Even putting aside the flawed mentality that too many people in this state have of ... I need permission to do X from the "man".  -wrong-     You have permission to ANYTHING unless there's a law that says you can't.  But these a-hole elected lawyers with an agenda word the law so they can later have a judge twist it to say.. whatever they want.  Yet they still get it passed in the first place even though it's written in a way that makes our lives more difficult..

 

I've yet to read about even a single person arrested, detained or looked at sternly for taking a pistol from one house to another provided they were "g" complaint.

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No doubt. I agree.  But we have guys like this lawyer in the OPs Post#1 who is telling the guy he can't take his pistols from house 1 to house 2.  Then we try to explain why he can, and it's not exactly crystal clear.  Even putting aside the flawed mentality that too many people in this state have of ... I need permission to do X from the "man".  -wrong-     You have permission to ANYTHING unless there's a law that says you can't.  But these a-hole elected lawyers with an agenda word the law so they can later have a judge twist it to say.. whatever they want.  Yet they still get it passed in the first place even though it's written in a way that makes our lives more difficult..

 

I've yet to read about even a single person arrested, detained or looked at sternly for taking a pistol from one house to another provided they were "g" complaint.

^^^EXACTLY!

 

The problem with "Lawyers" in the OP's case is obvious.  Any Lawyer worth his or her salt will ALWAYS come down on the side of caution when they don't have any real-world experience in the particular type ACTIVITY (aka:  part of the Law) that they're being queried about.  Hell, if our Fudd Lawyer here would have mentioned needing to go to a range or other exempt location while en-route to house #2 I would at least give him/her a half-credit for TRYING to find a way for their client to work within current law.  But asking a real estate attorney (???) about gun law is like asking your podiatrist to perform open heart surgery..........

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If you are correct will you please show me the plethora of people arrested for transporting firearms from one property they own to another they own? If you are correct ypu should be able to find hundreds if not thousands of cases like you describe.

 

NJ gun laws suck. The main reason is they try to list all the things you can do vs most laws that tell you what you can't do. If a law doesn't say something is illegal it's legal.

We are going in circles here.... 2C:39-5(b)(1) makes a blanket statement of possession of handgun illegal and crime of second degree. So there you have it.. in writing.  Now, we have the blanket statement, show me an exception to that with respect to OP question. 

 

As I said earlier, this is an academic discussion more than anything else.  What might happen in practicality is different. 

 

---------------------

As to the case involving debate about moving between houses - Brian Aitken case comes to mind..  Quick copy / paste from the google search..  Lot of interesting bits , but one fact is, he was charged with the BS we are discussing..

 

Nappen Comments / Quotes from the case:

 

 

"New Jersey Statute 2C:39-6e allows a person to possess firearms when moving between one residence and another. as long as the firearms are unloaded and locked in the trunk of the vehicle. as required by N.J.S. 2C:39-6g. Brian complied with this transportation requirement during his move between his parents' house and his new apartment. However, the judge presiding in the case refused to read this possessory exemption to the jury despite counsel's demands and repeated requests by the jury to learn of the firearm possession exemptions."

 
 
"The Firearms Owner's Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. 926A, protects persons traveling with firearms between two locations where their firearms are lawfully possessed, if they comply with the transportation requirements. As with the New Jersey exemptions, the judge of the court below refused to read this exemption to the jury, deciding for himself that this provision did not apply and that Brian was not entitled to its protection."
 
 
Right, wrong or indifferent,  there is/was  atleast one Judge out there who (mis)interpreted the topic at hand.. and I am aware what happened to that Judge...  Whats not clear to me is if this case sets legal precedence around moving between houses.. 

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Here is another kicker from Aitken case.  To counter the possibility of Brian not meeting 6(g), the Defense tried to show that the defendant was "moving" between houses. If it was not illegal to just "transport stuff" between houses, there would have been no need for such strategy. 

 

One of the Jury from that case commented... see the stressing of "moving" aspect... 

 

----------------------

"Why did you make us aware at the start of the trial that the law allows a person to carry a weapon if the person is moving or going to a shooting range, and during the trial both the defense and prosecution presented testimony as to whether or not the defendant was in the process of moving, and then in your charge for us to deliberate we are not permitted to take into consideration whether or not we believe the defendant was moving?"[16]

----------------------------

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Here is another kicker from Aitken case.  To counter the possibility of Brian not meeting 6(g), the Defense tried to show that the defendant was "moving" between houses. If it was not illegal to just "transport stuff" between houses, there would have been no need for such strategy. 

 

One of the Jury from that case commented... see the stressing of "moving" aspect... 

 

----------------------

"Why did you make us aware at the start of the trial that the law allows a person to carry a weapon if the person is moving or going to a shooting range, and during the trial both the defense and prosecution presented testimony as to whether or not the defendant was in the process of moving, and then in your charge for us to deliberate we are not permitted to take into consideration whether or not we believe the defendant was moving?"[16]

----------------------------

 

I read Blue Tent Sky, so this is completely in my wheelhouse.

 

Nappen was using this defense to attempt to get the hollow point charge thrown-out.  (He WAS moving, so Nappen had a slam-dunk until the wacky Judge did what he did and was later disbarred for it.)  Which didn't happen, so he was sentenced to both possession during his move (later reversed, as you so stipulated) AND possession of HP ammo w/o an exemption.  So he went-away for (2) things and had to wait for his commutation to get OUT!  He still needed a pardon at this point.  Since NJ never bothered to change the law, IMHO it's more important to note for casual armchair lawyers the fact that now since the lawyers that write the laws didn't bother to exempt transportation of HP from one dwelling to another, now we must all stop at a range's driveway (even in the middle of the night) if we wish to transport HP ammo from dwelling #1 to dwelling #2!

 

Interestingly, NONE of the armchair lawyers have yet to figure-out what they'll do w/o a gun they have the ammo for at dwelling #2..........

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Since I am one of those armchair lawyers, I am always going (intent) to or from a range that I have membership at (and some silly stuff to prove it such as membership card, couple of targets etc in the trunk), IF I am transporting my firearms (handguns, HP ammo especially).  Nothing in code says I have to come back to same residence should I change my mind on the way. 

 

I guess real lawyers do it differently. 

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"and then in your charge for us to deliberate we are not permitted to take into consideration whether or not we believe the defendant was moving?"[16]

 

If I'm on a jury and I'm getting an instruction from a judge that I think is bull... no way in hell would I pay any attention to what the judge said.

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