carl_g 568 Posted July 28, 2015 I know this is not NJ legal but it is cool as hell. Check out this site: http://six12.com/ It can be a standalone shot gun Or... attached to an AR: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lalo 13 Posted July 28, 2015 Looks pretty cool. Reminds me of this... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted July 28, 2015 It is NJ legal in it's standard form. It's gonna be pricey, but it will never arrive. This company is so slow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DargZ 5 Posted July 28, 2015 That's wicked cool especially the cylinder change. I highly doubt this is legal anywhere. According to the site, they "are selecting certain military and law enforcement to participate in the assessment". This is also very similar to the striker or street sweeper which "is not generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes" by the ATF and would most likely classify it as a destructive device which will severely limit who can get one of these. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted July 28, 2015 It has a 22 inch barrel in it's standard configuration which makes it legal. It's also not considered a semi auto because the double action trigger rotates the cylinder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted July 29, 2015 It wont be legal in NJ. You dont have to manually cycle the action like a pump. My guess is that it wont be approved and even if its a grey area good luck finding an ffl to sell it to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Polak 3 Posted July 29, 2015 Revolving cylinders are not semi automatic... this should be legal in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JC_68Westy 1,024 Posted July 29, 2015 It looks like there will be 18" and 22" versions available. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fishnut 2,358 Posted July 29, 2015 Sorry but am the only one who thinks that thing is even more ugly than the KSG. Give me my good old mossy 500 any day of the week Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyDigz 1,811 Posted July 29, 2015 It is NJ legal in it's standard form. ... Hey hey, Ray Ray's back! Welcome back Ray Ray! Here's some fresh gun forum argumentation to welcome you back with: You're wrong on the SIX12 being NJ legal, like you're wrong about bird shot being a good choice for an HD shotgun load. Regardless of what mechanism prepares the next round for firing, it has a revolving cylinder, which runs it afoul of this little clause: "Assault firearm" means: (1) The following firearms: ... Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12" ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted July 29, 2015 I simply can not think of a SINGLE problem this gun fixes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted July 30, 2015 Revolving cylinders are not semi automatic... this should be legal in NJ. That's what I thought and heard but Dirty Digz hit us up with the damn law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carl_g 568 Posted July 30, 2015 I simply can not think of a SINGLE problem this gun fixes.That's too bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted July 30, 2015 I simply can not think of a SINGLE problem this gun fixes. You can look at it 2 ways. 1 way is that all you need are "basic firearms", so why deviate from that path? And the second way is that, hey this is a new design and it opens the door to a different way of thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted July 30, 2015 Oh I'm down with cool guns, and I'm all ok with people trying new stuff out. I'm glad it exists in the market place, but only in the same way I'm glad cars like the convertible Murano exist. I don't want either one, but I'm glad the market place allows for the wackiness. I just have no practical application for one. The rifle mounted model which is off limits for us is actually kinda interesting, allowing for a compact multishot shotgun though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted July 30, 2015 Oh I'm down with cool guns, and I'm all ok with people trying new stuff out. I'm glad it exists in the market place, but only in the same way I'm glad cars like the convertible Murano exist. I don't want either one, but I'm glad the market place allows for the wackiness. I just have no practical application for one. The rifle mounted model which is off limits for us is actually kinda interesting, allowing for a compact multishot shotgun though. The Tavor is a perfect example. Before it came out, the argument was AR vs AK or piston AR vs Direct Impingement AR. So out pops a bullpup 556 with a heavy trigger, weird controls and different handling. Dudes bought those things and they are still selling today. That gun is in the same class as this shotgun. It's different, but it can still be implemented in someones defensive use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted July 31, 2015 I simply can not think of a SINGLE problem this gun fixes. I can. Now I can get six shots out of a breaching shotgun instead of just 4, all in a package of similar size to what I currently am issued. I can increase the capacity of a SBS without increasing length or adding a long-ass box mag that sticks out the bottom and smacks me in the dick every time I move or slams my knee every time I get low. Remember, this shotgun wasn't designed for sporting, HD, or hunting use. It was designed to be a direct competitor for the M26 and Remington MCS for Military and LEO use as a standalone shotgun or "Masterkey" set up. I would say the the comparison between this and the Tavor is slightly flawed. Yes, they are both bullpups, but the Tavor was designed to replace a fighting carbine. The Six12 was designed to replace an entry tool. It's still a shotgun and thanks to the variety of 12g ammo out there it can be re-purposes to a fighting shotgun or HD, but that was not the primary intended use. It is a useful byproduct of the design. Besides - Australia, New Zealand, Austria (to name a few) have been using a bullpup (Steyr AUG) as a standard infantry rifles for decades before the Tavor reared its ugly head. Pun intended. Not to mention the UK's and France's awesome experience with their bullpup abortions. The idea if a Bullpup design for firearms is not new by any stretch of the imagination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted August 3, 2015 Err .. if you are talking about a breaching gun attached to a rifle sure, but I would think a separate version using just a pistol grip would be no longer then a bulpup given same barrel length. Its not as if you are going to shoulder that and put your face 8-10" from the door, are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted August 3, 2015 Nope. I am talking about a standalone 870 Wingmaster with a 10" barrel, it has a 3 round capacity. The +1 extension I bought off you last year gives me 4 rounds and makes a nice standoff adapter. This six12 would give me 6 rounds in a package the same size. That's a huge plus. Gives me 2 more tries to immediately attempt the breach before moving to an alternate brech point. Agreed, that's not a use everyone needs - I've never had to conduct a ballistic breach outside of training and it is only authorized under very particular and specific circumstances with higher authority approval - but it is the use that the Six12 shotgun was designed for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted August 4, 2015 I can see that I guess. I an impressed by the clever use of the +1 extension though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted August 8, 2015 Nope. I am talking about a standalone 870 Wingmaster with a 10" barrel, it has a 3 round capacity. The +1 extension I bought off you last year gives me 4 rounds and makes a nice standoff adapter. If I can make one suggestion. Get the birds beak grip. I know, I know. This is strictly a breaching gun but damn it! It doesnt have to be painful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted August 8, 2015 I haven't tried the bird's beak, but the grip on their now is comfy as hell. Plus, it was a gift from the guy that runs the breaching program for 10th Mtn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted August 15, 2015 on the note of breaching.. would it not be more favorable to still use a stand alone breaching shotgun so that once you are clear and in you can run a smaller lighter carbine... while I think its totally doable to maneuver the interior of a building with a larger carbine.. I think given the choice I would opt for a smaller SBR without some drum fed shotgun hanging from the bottom... I just feel like once you clear a door the shotgun is not really needed so why weigh down the primary weapon with all that.. also isn't your breacher going to breach the door and move out of the way to allow others to advance? I know that the process is unpredictable but still appears to solve a problem that does not really exist... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted August 15, 2015 Agreed. All of the LEO ballistic breaching programs I know if use dedicated breaching guns. These guns are also never used with standard ammo - breaching rounds only. The Army has a different outlook and has been trying to create a better "Masterkey" setup for years. Plus, it probably still weighs the same/less than a SAW, 240B, or M4/203 combo. I do know that some military units keep full size Mossberg shotguns as breaching guns instead of using a system like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted August 15, 2015 Agreed. All of the LEO ballistic breaching programs I know if use dedicated breaching guns. These guns are also never used with standard ammo - breaching rounds only. The Army has a different outlook and has been trying to create a better "Masterkey" setup for years. Plus, it probably still weighs the same/less than a SAW, 240B, or M4/203 combo. I do know that some military units keep full size Mossberg shotguns as breaching guns instead of using a system like that. I think its silly that they don't use a small dedicated breaching gun.... I mean especially in urban type areas where they are going through multiple structures in areas that may be very hostile.. I would not want to be lugging around a full size shotgun when there is no real need.. transition from full size shotgun to carbine.. no thanks.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted August 15, 2015 Very small shotguns have their own set of problems that need to be addressed. Remember, not everyone is a deltarangerseal. 18 year old Private Snuffy has to be able to follow the TTPs safely as well. Like any large organization, you train to the ability of the lowest/newest/least capable member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted August 15, 2015 Very small shotguns have their own set of problems that need to be addressed. Remember, not everyone is a deltarangerseal. 18 year old Private Snuffy has to be able to follow the TTPs safely as well. Like any large organization, you train to the ability of the lowest/newest/least capable member. LOL "just give them regular shotguns.. they have probably handled those before.." the smallest shotgun I've shot was 14in.. and there was really nothing complex about it.... I am sure they could learn quickly to use it without blowing their hand off.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted August 15, 2015 If I can make one suggestion. Get the birds beak grip. I know, I know. This is strictly a breaching gun but damn it! It doesnt have to be painful. I never found pistol grips to be that bad on small shotguns... in regards to the bird head grip. I don't know if that is ideal for breaching.. think about how you are supporting the gun.. and think about the angle you are going at the door... I think that the grip would put your wrist at a really off angle.. also he is breaching a door.. not spending the day shooting at the range.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted August 16, 2015 I haven't tried the bird's beak, but the grip on their now is comfy as hell. Plus, it was a gift from the guy that runs the breaching program for 10th Mtn. The birds beak, although ghetto in appearance, is the best pistol grip on the market. I've tried MANY grips on my 500 and have come to that conclusion. The stock grip that comes with Mossbergs are like the sights that come on Glocks, totally useless and need to be replaced with real ones. A step up is your hogue ones but when it comes to feel and ease of use the birds beak is second to none. Holla Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted August 16, 2015 Remember Ray, I'm not moving the grip to my hip, ensuring the barrel is relatively level with the ground, and letting them rip. I have to aim high, low, straight in at chest level. They are all awkward angles dictated by the type of door, frame, and hinge. This is all done while standing a little off to the side of the vector of recoil. You need that "90degree" handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites