Visiting Dad in NJ, want to bring rifle, pistol

[ripcurlksm 0]

Hey guys, I am looking to travel back to NJ from CA in a few weeks to go shooting with my father at the public range at Fort Dix.

 

1) Any problems with travelling into the state with a bolt action rifle and a pistol? My father has a NJ firearms ID card. Any issues?

2) Would I get in trouble driving from the airport to my parents house with an unloaded, locked pistol as an out of state resident?

3) If I brought my 16"bbl AR-15, did any laws change? I know I have to remove the telscoping stock and I'd be bringing 10-round mags.

 

Thanks!

[njpilot 671]

No Flash hider or bare threads allowed as well as no bayonet lug.

 

Leave the handgun at home.

[Teky0101 6]

I agree with NJpilot and I would highly recommend that you leave the handgun at home. Handguns are illegal in NJ except through exemption which is when you apply for your pistol permit and register them through the state. Legally with a handgun you are only allowed to travel to and from the range and/or gun shop without any deviated stops. I think the laws are much different with a long gun such as a rifle or shotgun but I am not sure on the legality of not traveling without a firearms id card as an out of state resident. Regarding the AR it depends upon the type some AR'S are banned by name in NJ. It also cannot have a threaded muzzle, flash hider or bayonet lug. I am sorry for all the negative posting but I would hate to see NJ claim another victim because of its crazy firearms laws. I hope this helps!

[jackandjill 683]

FOPA (Fed) covers folks travelling "through" NJ.  FPID  covers long gun transportation within NJ.  Without FPID (long guns), one has to follow exceptions which call for "directly to and from" stuff we dread.  

 

So what exception of the law covers non residents without FPID bring in long gun to parent / friends house, then go visit range etc ?

[PK90 3,570]

FOPA (Fed) covers folks travelling "through" NJ.  FPID  covers long gun transportation within NJ.  Without FPID (long guns), one has to follow exceptions which call for "directly to and from" stuff we dread.  

 

So what exception of the law covers non residents without FPID bring in long gun to parent / friends house, then go visit range etc ?

 

I believe that FOPA applies to the OP.

 

"and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances."

 

How does he get to the range unless going to his Father's house to stay overnight? I think that is reasonable. How do shooting competitors from out of state stay overnight?

[jackandjill 683]

I wondered about the shooting competitors staying overnight  in NJ.  Thanks for clarifying.  In case of competition, the primary purpose is the participation in the shooting sport (which is often well advertised, many participants etc) and staying overnight / stopping for lunch etc is necessary and incidental.

 

In OP case,  could going to range be considered a primary purpose of the trip ? 

 

BTW, does GSSF/Other pistol matches allow out of state participants , if so, how do they bring handguns ? This is meant toward advise against bringing Handguns. 

 

I could be over thinking this. 

[SJG 253]

All bad ideas.

FOPA will only protect you while you are in interstate transit where your possession at the point of departure and arrival is completely legal. If you do not have a NJ FID card, which permits purchase and carriage of a long gun in NJ  you may have a problem. You are no longer in transit if your destination is your father's house.Also, you would not be within the exemptions contained within NJ law on the handgun because you are going to your dad's house from the airport assuming you don't own that house and you do not live there and then departing from that location to the range. If you can get screwed, NJ is only happy to screw you.

[PK90 3,570]

He is travelling to the NJ range and stopping at his father's house to pick him up. Getting some sleep overnight is a reasonable act.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

[robot_hell 72]

I hate that term, "reasonable". Reasonable to whom? There are people who would say it is unreasonable for me to be driving with a firearm at all.

 

It leaves a lot to interpretation.

[mipafox 438]

I don't think anybody can tell you this is guaranteed legal without an FID. There are things we know are legal, and there are things we think are legal but can't agree on and don't have binding case law. The real question is will you get caught by a cop, and will a cop arrest you over it. I think the answers are extremely unlikely and unlikely, respectively. What would happen in court nobody can say with certainty.

[Kevin125 4,772]

You may be ok with the long gun. The handgun though may be a problem. But I really don't know.

 

If I was flying into Newark, probably the point I'd be most worried is when I was loading the gun cases into the car of whoever was picking me up as the Port Authority cop was watching me. If ever there was a LEO that probably knew the least about NJ Gun laws, it might just be those PA cops.

 

One suggestion I can make, if you don't feel comfortable bringing the pistol, make some time to shoot at a range in the area you will be that does rentals, like Garden State Armory.

[carl_g 568]

Unfortunately, the safest advice is to leave your guns at home.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Hey guys, I am looking to travel back to NJ from CA in a few weeks to go shooting with my father at the public range at Fort Dix.

 

1) Any problems with travelling into the state with a bolt action rifle and a pistol? My father has a NJ firearms ID card. Any issues?

2) Would I get in trouble driving from the airport to my parents house with an unloaded, locked pistol as an out of state resident?

3) If I brought my 16"bbl AR-15, did any laws change? I know I have to remove the telscoping stock and I'd be bringing 10-round mags.

 

Thanks!

 

After giving this quite a lot of thought, several ideas come to mind.  Some require advance notice and paperwork, others do not.  

 

IF your Dad had previously applied for and been granted a P2P that hasn't yet fully expired, you could go thru an FFL and SELL him your pistol.  Then he takes HIS pistol to the range while you're both in NJ.  After you're back on the LEFT Coast, he sells it back to you in Kali, and you pick it up at your local FFL.  I'd consider doing this IF the pistol has inherent sentimental value and would make the Father and Son shooting experience a LOT more enjoyable than simply renting a dirty gun from a commercial indoor range.

 

As for the rifle, there are exemptions on the books for competitions, and LOTS of out-of-state shooters bring both long guns and hand guns into NJ.  I have shot and competed alongside them in fact.  I would have ZERO qualms about transporting my competition long gun, as a NJFPID card is NOT needed to transport firearms (so long as you use "directly to and from" and don't unreasonably deviate) for purposes of a sanctioned event or competition.  So run a Competition and invite some friends to shoot with you and Dad at Range #14?

 

Keep in mind you can always ship the long gun to yourself at Dad's address.  In a locked hard case of course....

 

There isn't any supporting Case Law one way or the other to support any rock-solid conclusions.  The job of a Lawyer is to always advise their clients of the SAFEST approach, avoiding any gray area or potential pitfalls or "perils of Pauline" stories.  So that all being said, you have to decide if your two measly firearms are SO special that they can't be replicated from the Rental Dept. of a 5-Star Indoor Range that has over 120 guns for rent, the makes and models of which are on their web sites or available with a phone call.

 

Just the facts, Joe Friday style.  Sorry NJ sucks the FUN outta it for ya Kid!

 

Dave

A Dad who wishes his Kid would plan a Father and Son Match from 3K miles away!

[ripcurlksm 0]

Thanks guys, really appreciate it

[Rob0115 1,105]

Where is it written you need an FPID to take your guns to the range in NJ? You can legally own guns without one but would like someone to post that statute because I couldn't find it. What happens to people who move to PRNJ from out of state and legally own their firearms with no FPID? So you can't buy pistol ammo at the gun shop but I'm not sure of anything else.

 

I've seen guys travel from NY to Woodland Park Range to shoot their guns and then drive back. What crime are they committing?

 

OP I'm not s lawyer and I'm not sure who else on the thread is but if you want legal advice you should contact one. Preferably one that knows gun laws I'm sure you could get a reference for that.

[Rob0115 1,105]

 

IF your Dad had previously applied for and been granted a P2P that hasn't yet fully expired, you could go thru an FFL and SELL him your pistol.  Then he takes HIS pistol to the range while you're both in NJ.  After you're back on the LEFT Coast, he sells it back to you in Kali, and you pick it up at your local FFL.  I'd consider doing this IF the pistol has inherent sentimental value and would make the Father and Son shooting experience a LOT more enjoyable than simply renting a dirty gun from a commercial indoor range.

 

How could this be legal? Isn't this a straw purchase?

[Rob0115 1,105]

Unfortunately, the safest advice is to leave your guns at home.

 

Unfortunately this is probably true.

[OfcrFek 21]

Good luck with the shipping it to yourself idea. I tried shipping a handgun home from another state while on my honeymoon a month or 2 ago, as the way I was trying to transport it home wouldn't let me. It HAS to be a private shipping company (UPS, Fed Ex), but they also stated they would refuse to ship it knowing it was a firearm, unless it was to an FFL or a manufacturer. Now, you can just not tell them what's being shipped, but I'm not sure the ramifications if they somehow figure out they're shipping a firearm. Unfortunately, IMO, at best you will dodge legal action, but be trying to get your firearms back from the state police for a long time.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

How could this be legal? Isn't this a straw purchase?

NO, not Federally to my understanding.  In Free America transfers like this occur all of the time between parents and offspring.  OR travelers like the OP just bring the gun(s) thousands of miles in their checked baggage or the trunk of their vehicles and then take Dad out for a meal before, during (like I do) or after shooting evil Death Machines, stopping whenever and wherever they deem necessary or merely convenient....  They sleep-over or visit for WEEKS at a time, like normal FAMILY does.  They drive to places like Iowa, carrying 5 pounds of EXPLOSIVES in the trunk of their cars along with 6 or 8 guns, speed holsters, targets, shells of every caliber and description!  Hell, in Free America a next door neighbor can LOAN YOU one of their 20 hand guns to protect yourself with after you file a RO against a Stalker, estranged Ex that has beat you up, etc., etc., so as to PREVENT a Carol Bowne style murder incident from occurring in your own driveway!  THAT'S RIGHT, I SAID LOAN YOU A HAND GUN!  Point-of-fact is in states that don't care, NOBODY CARES where you got the gun to shoot the Perp with, lol!

 

Here's a little story and a History Lesson:

 

Upon my HS graduation, I drooled all over the counter at a local brick and mortar Gun Shop while "purchasing" a Smith and Wesson .357 Combat Magnum K-frame Model #19 revolver.  I was just 18 years old so the Gun Shop owner couldn't "sell me the gun" even though I had in my hands the $250 I received as gifts for my graduation as well as the P2P a Hand Gun form in quadruplicate, complete with blue carbon paper in-between each sheet.  So my Father (already a gun owner w/ NJFPID card) applied for a coupla hand gun permits.  They came a week or two later to the house in the mail.  He went to the Gun Shop with me and legally "bought" the revolver from the Shop, then we filled-out my permit side-by-side at the same time and during the same transaction on the SAME counter, under the watchful eyes of the Shop owner (to make sure we didn't forget anything on the forms).  On Dad's permit the gun was "NEW" and on mine it was "USED" since I couldn't buy it new from a FFL at age 18.  The Shop owner gladly helped us and said he'd send both sets of copies to our CLEO and the NJSP as one document, STAPLED TOGETHER!   Today he'd be a Conspirator, back then he was just a nice guy developing a life-long business relationship with a young man getting into the Sport.  Even threw-in a free box of shells!  See back in '77 there was no such thing as a "Straw Purchase" since the term wasn't yet invented!  At age 18 I was old enough to smoke, drink, cuss, drive to a Titty Bar in Staten Island, AND buy any NJ legal firearm from a NJ resident (who wasn't a FFL) right across his/her kitchen table!  Even an AR-15 or a M-1 Carbine w/ 30 round mags, right across a kitchen table.....................

 

So 38 years later we have in-place a "feel-good" law that prevents parents from buying their offspring a means of protection.  Because Hood Rats don't go to local shops w/ CCTV to buy guns for fellow Hood Rats.  They get them on the street!  Instead, we let the Obama Administration do things like "Fast and Furious" that deliberately put guns into the hands of gangs...........    See when ya get to be my age, ya remember what FREEDOM WAS and ya just don't give a CRAP!!!  Must be that the Government doesn't like competition!

 

So, in closing, one must remember that I can sell a gun to a family member and they can sell it back to me.  Meanwhile, in Free America, I can loan my offspring his Granddad's .45 that he brought back from WW2 (NO PAPERS) w/o anyone raisin' so much as an eyebrow since it's done all the time!  NJ may be communist, but let's not make it any easier by cowering in a corner waiting for the next "feel-good" law.  Let's instead RISE UP and use the laws of common sense to fight to get things back to 1977!

 

And Rob, let's go for a drink sometime!

 

Rosey

 

--30--

[jackandjill 683]

Great story and great times. However, its prudent to operate within CURRENT laws and work other angles to get such laws changed. 

 

Since we DO have straw purchase laws on the books now, anyone filling out a Federal form 4473 is advised to think hard before providing incorrect or misleading information. 

 

Even Supreme Court affirmed conviction in a case involving relatives, both eligible to purchase firearm otherwise. Do google search and you will find how ridiculous the court system has become.   The law enforcement, prosecutors, courts, elected politicians - all look forward to sticking it you at every opportunity they get.  In their eyes, you are the Perp who didnt follow the 'law' as its written.  They will even goto the extent of literally dissecting every word of the law as written and interpret to fit their agenda.  So the "laws of common sense" are no longer valid, unless you have time, energy and money to spend all the way to SC, then be told to go take cold shower.

 

 

There are exceptions to the straw purchase stuff when it comes to family gifts.  But any prior arrangements could land someone in trouble, under circumstances. Ofcourse, we can debate until cows come home on whether the OP situation fits into this case. :-) 

 

 

--------------- A snippet from SC ruling in that straw purchase conviction -----------------------------

Contrary to [Abramski’s] contention, the information Question 11.a. requests–“[a]re you the actual transferee/buyer[?]” or, put conversely, “are [you] acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person[?]”–is relevant to the lawfulness of a gun sale.  That is because for all the reasons we have given, the firearms law contemplates that the dealer will check not the fictitious purchaser’s but instead the true purchaser’s identity and eligibility for gun ownership.  By concealing that Alvarez was the actual buyer, Abramski prevented the dealer from transacting with Alvarez face-to-face, see §922©, record his name, age and residence, §922(b)(5), inspecting his photo ID, see §922(t)(1)©, submitting his identifying information to the background check system, see §922(t)(1)(B), and determining whether he was prohibited from receiving a firearm, see §922(d).  In sum, Abramski thwarted application of essentially all of the firearms law’s requirements.  We can hardly think of a misrepresentation any more material to a sale’s legality.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

Exception on the Form 4473 - Gifts

--------------------------------------------

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party. ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

^^^^I completely agree with your post.  What really gets me is that in NJ you really can't do a "Straw Purchase" since every buyer (new or used) needs a P2P from his/her local CLEO, so what difference does it make if the same gun goes to 4 houses over a calendar year, with each of four friends, relatives or strangers getting to play with it for just 90 days?  It's not like I'm buying a gun from you and selling it to an Illegal Alien on a Newark or Camden street corner for CASH, lol!  And yes I know that Free America states require little or NO paperwork, so a 4473 is really meant to stop the "no background check" transactions THAT OCCUR IN OTHER STATES.

 

Further, in order for a "Straw Purchase" to be an actual "Straw Purchase", the Seller can't be informed of your intention to gift the firearm.  Case in point is when I bought and gifted a Mossberg 500 Bantam 20 ga. youth model to my local Scout Council.  I informed the Gun Shop of my intentions and we did the paperwork, including the 4473.  I forget the actual paragraph #, but somewhere on there I wrote "gift for Boy Scouts".  I showed-up at BSA Council HQ with it and signed it over to the Scout Executive that ran that Council, using his Yellow Card (what us oldsters refer to the NJFPID Card as) to fill-out a C.O.E. just minutes after the original transfer to me at the Gun Shop.  Because firearms can't belong to NJ Scout Councils, they must be transferred to adults that work at Council and have Yellow Cards.  Point being is this:  If you're not HIDING who the gun is FOR, you're not intending to conspire to transfer a firearm to a "No-Goodnick".

 

Yes, one must cross every "t" and dot every "i".  That's why most NJ FFL's will do a lay-away for relatives gifting firearms to other relatives.  The recipient walks-in with a big smile on their kisser and the last $buck to pay the lay-away in full and the store only has one look-up to do......

[Kevin125 4,772]

Curious... Back in the day.. My dad had the FPID. So he bought the 12 gauge I hunted with and shot at the clay range. We both resided at the same house. This was probably about 1975. I was a minor as you might guess. I take it there are exceptions to cover this situation.

[jackandjill 683]

Curious... Back in the day.. My dad had the FPID. So he bought the 12 gauge I hunted with and shot at the clay range. We both resided at the same house. This was probably about 1975. I was a minor as you might guess. I take it there are exceptions to cover this situation.

2C:58-15. Minors Access to a Loaded Firearm; Penalty

 

2C:58-6.1. Possession of firearms by minors; exceptions.

[PK90 3,570]

I've hunted by myself with my father's guns forever. I've taken several guns that weren't mine to the range.

 

THE "MAN" DOESN'T CARE IF THE GUN YOU ARE HUNTING WITH OR TAKING TO THE RANGE IS NOT YOURS!!!

 

The above is a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Curious... Back in the day.. My dad had the FPID. So he bought the 12 gauge I hunted with and shot at the clay range. We both resided at the same house. This was probably about 1975. I was a minor as you might guess. I take it there are exceptions to cover this situation.

jackandjill covered it with the current actual laws, so I'll just add some "flavor".  

 

Back when you and I were minors, it was still considered acceptable for a minor to wear hunter orange and display their license during bird and deer seasons and hit the woods around my part of Old Bridge with their scatterguns to see if they could knock sumthin' skyward and harvest it.  They often did so right after the school bus would drop them at the corner nearest their street.  So that means they had ACCESS to both the shotty AND the shells, and carrying an unloaded shotty through the development towards the woods and back was almost an everyday sight.  Nobody even blinked at this, especially if the hunter had a break-action scattergun broken-open and laying across their shoulder as they schlepped towards the woods.  Hell some of the Cops in town would stop and ask them how they did, what gun they were using, shot size, etc. because they were jealous and wished they were doin' the same thing.  It wasn't unheard of to see a Kid in hunter orange get a ride home if it was gettin' dark by the time said Kid made it to the roadside at the woods to walk home.  "Protect and Serve" at it's best.

 

Back "in the day" during hunting seasons, some of my slightly older friends used to ride their bicycles to school with a shotgun across the handlebars, which they would then bring to the school office for daytime storage.  With all of the "Dipshit NY City Slickers" infesting the suburbs, that practice went by the wayside, and it's been a slippery slope since....... 

 

How did we ever survive with Minors having scatterguns in their little hands, no cell phones, computers, tablets, etc. and run cars on regular leaded gas, lol?

[Kevin125 4,772]

lol.. Yeah, those were the days. I hunted in Old Bridge quite a bit. Between Bordentown Ave and Rte 9 by what I think we called Runyon Waterworks. Pretty sure thats about where OBRPC is now.

 

Long walk home. Sometimes via old railroad tracks. Sometimes on roads. Guns unloaded and lots of ammo. No one seemed to mind. We'd always have our licenses in view and some orange on. I remember stopping at stores for a soda. One of us would go in and somebody outside would hold onto their gun.

 

Crazy how the world ever survived it.......

[Smokin .50 1,907]

^^^I still drive by Brown's Yard (the RR freight yard on Bordentown Ave.) to this day.  I grew up in Madison Park.  Hunters along Cheesequake Road almost every day.

 

Waterworks Road is down by the "S"-Curve on Bordentown Ave.  Runyon Watershed is back there, so good memory!

 

Nowadays, what we did (because it was considered "normal") warrants an Active Shooter Response Team (in some folks' minds) lol!

[Kevin125 4,772]

Madison Park... I think thats the development bordering Cheesequake and Bordentown Rds. Road dirt bikes around there too. We might know some of the same people. I grew up at the other end of Cheesequake Rd in Sayreville. Like I said....long walk home....

 

I'm guessing hunting is no longer an option in that area.

 

No doubt the OP is fascinated with this nostalgia....

 

But what some consider activism today... Grabbing your long gun and walking around town.... We did as SOP. Go figure....

[KLOMAX 1]

Kind of ironic that someone from CA cant find a way to bring guns into NJ legally.  You would think it would be the other way around.  In my opinion, I think the easiest solution would be to go to a range where you can rent a gun, or just use your fathers at Ft Dix....  What a shame.

 

I recently went to Philly for a bachelor party and the first destination was the Delaware Valley Sports Club.  Since I was staying over I didn't bother bringing my guns. But my friend decided he wanted to.  This meant he had to drive down and go directly home after missing the later festivities.  The range was awesome they let us rent an AK and a Desert Eagle, a couple other pistols with no supervision and everyone had a great time.  I recommend that range if anyone is in Philly.