FireClean is Cooking Oil

[High Exposure 5,662]

For your consideration.

 

I personally use SLIP products, so this doesn't really impact me, but I know quite a few folks here swear by this stuff.

 

If true, I can't help but think how hot guns get and hard it is to clean a pan with burnt-on vegetable oil.

 

http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/#comments

 

INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OF FIRECLEAN AND CRISCO OILS

 

SEPTEMBER 12, 2015

ANDREW TUOHY

 

If you have been on the internet and have visited a sampling of firearm related blogs or social media sites in the last few weeks, you have most likely come across reports or claims that FireClean is nothing more than Crisco vegetable oil. I had heard it from two people in the industry whom I respect around the same time it started being mentioned all over the place (I had previously been aware that it was a food grade oil, but did not know anything more than that).

 

The first real attention-grabber was this video, which has since been removed. It showed FireClean and Crisco vegetable oil smoking and burning off at the same time on a stovetop (my friend Brett replicated this test and saw the same results). Still, this wasn’t the sort of conclusive proof that would sway me one way or the other. It’s possible that two oils could have the same smoke point and not share other properties.

 

I did not – and still do not – believe that FireClean is Crisco, but not for the reason you might think. Although such statements make for shocking arguments, it wouldn’t really make sense to buy a name brand product at a high price if the goal was to resell and make money.

 

Still, the claim that FireClean is nothing more than Crisco is not one to be taken lightly by anyone – not by consumers and certainly not by the company. I spoke at length with one of the makers of FireClean, Ed Sugg, and he assured me that not a single drop of Crisco has ever been part of their formulation, even during initial testing with various mixtures. Interestingly enough, he specifically mentioned that soybean oil had not been part of their testing.

 

Despite these assurances, which I was inclined to believe, I sought to undertake my own testing to determine whether or not these claims are true about FireClean. Trust, but verify.

 

I also contacted the man who seems to have originated the “FireClean is Crisco” claim. George Fennell of WeaponShield posted on his personal Facebook page that FireClean was Crisco several weeks back (I am told that this has been removed, but I cannot view his Facebook page any more).

 

It was claimed by various people, including the guy who first posted that now-removed stovetop video, that he had scientific proof of this claim. I asked Mr. Fennell if he would provide a copy of the analysis, which he refused to do. He told me all I needed to do was look at FireClean’s patent application to see that it was Crisco and/or other vegetable oils. When I asked again, rather politely in my opinion, he sent a very long and agitated message again refusing to supply the test before blocking me on Facebook.

 

Mr. Fennell was the developer of FP-10, a gun oil which, I should mention, I have recommended in the past and said I would purchase over FireClean for reasons of cost. He has since left the company which produces FP-10 and started at WeaponShield. Since then, he has criticized FP-10 as well as FireClean and other oils. I will reiterate that FP-10 provides excellent lubrication characteristics at a competitive price, if you’re looking to buy a gun oil.

 

But the question of the day is about FireClean and Crisco. There was clearly only one way to settle this, and that was to engage in some science.

 

I contacted a professor at the University of Arizona – a very nice man with a Ph.D. in organic chemistry – and he agreed to help with an infrared spectroscopy test of FireClean and two types of Crisco.

 

Two types, you ask? Not generally using anything other than olive oil in my cooking, I was somewhat surprised to find a wall of various types of cooking oils at my local grocery store. There were two types of Crisco oils prominently featured in the display – Pure Vegetable, and Pure Canola. I stood there in the aisle for quite some time, trying to figure out which one to buy. Sensing my puzzlement, a helpful lady asked me if I needed assistance deciding which oil was right for whatever it was I wanted to cook. Suddenly, I understood what it must be like for girls who visit gun stores.

 

Remembering the earlier comment about soybean oil, I determined with the help of the label that Crisco Pure Vegetable oil is made from soybean oil. Crisco Pure Canola is made from, you guessed it, canola. There were also probably half a dozen other brands of canola oil on the shelf. I decided to take both types of Crisco for testing.

 

The test took a week, and here are the results.

 

What did the tests show?

FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking.

 

The professor had something to say about the formulation and its relevance as a gun oil. “I don’t see any sign of other additives such as antioxidants or corrosion inhibitors. Since the unsaturation in these oils, especially linoleate residues, can lead to their oligomerization with exposure to oxygen and light, use on weapons could lead to formation of solid residues (gum) with time. The more UV and oxygen, the more the oil will degrade.”

 

In my 2013 article about gun oils, I mentioned that FireClean wasn’t advertised as protecting against corrosion. Given the results of this test, I suppose that makes sense.

 

When I fired this AR which had been sitting for years with FireClean on the internals, it hadn’t been exposed to UV, although it certainly saw some oxygen. Since that test, several friends told me privately that their 1911s did not function properly after sitting for six months with FireClean on the internals. It would seem that these results are highly dependent on the weapon.

 

Given that people in the military are often exposed to both UV and oxygen (such as when they go outdoors) and also need corrosion protection for their firearms, I would not recommend FireClean be used by members of the military.

 

I offered FireClean a chance to respond to the findings of this test, and, among other things, they asked to review the draft of this article for a few days before it was published. That is not how this blog works. I assume they will be publishing a response through other channels.

[Vlad G 345]

There are only so many ways to make oils. You either go down the petrochemcial way and risk various poisons, or the down the synthetic way and risk different issues, or you try to do the "natural/non-toxic" way which leads you to plant oils. I'll bet there most of the non-toxic lubes are plant based.

 

If you look at the zoomed out version of the picture there are actually quite a few differences between the first 2 and the 3ed, but really who cares what it is made of? If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't.  Personally I like it, but I never bought it, I had a few free bottles picked up from major matches they've sponsored. It seems to work just fine as a lube to me, and indeed they don't pretend it is a cleaner or preservative. Does it work in the cold? No idea, but I've had CLP'ed guns gum up in sub zero temps. Does it work after 6 months in the safe? I have no clue, as I oil any gun that sat around for half a year as most oils will drip out to some extent.

 

I'm not defending fireclean, they are in no way special to me, I use 5 different kinds of gun oil, mostly whatever is at hand as I've found little difference between most (some REALLY suck though), all I'm saying is that article seem very drive to convince its reader that gun oil can't be made from plant oils and that by comparing a product to Criso it is somehow implying that it is bad. I'm not sure that is a given.

[T Bill 649]

i had high hopes for this product. Early results showed it to be better at keeping things functional and easier to clean. Now, after using it on some fireams that sit in the safe I am seeing strange failures such as FTF issues. Clean and relube with some old trusted lubes find all the problems go away. This on all three types of firearms, rifle, shotgun, and pistol. I always liked Tetra products, so back to them for now.  It does seem to suffer from some type of stickiness, or thickening over time that somehow effects the working of the action and the firing mechanics.  Lessons learned.

[tattooo 220]

I stopped tryingvall these new miracle cleaner / lubes ..... I stick with hoppes #9 & MPRO7 ..... and everything goes bang every time

[ogfarmer 138]

been using it for year or so and works fine for me, and none of my long term storage guns have issues, I will continue to use it till some thing changes my mind. This whole debacle was started by a competitor  trying to boost his sales, its been a smear campaign for some time now.

[Damjan 73]

I use FireClean on my AK Bolt and on one of my handguns. The handgun is in storage now so i ll see what happens after a long time. So far no problems.

 

I ve had bad experiences with GUNZILLA though in the same way that TBill is describing fireclean s issues above. After a while it turns into a brownish cosmiline like gunk that is hard to remove and cakes.

[Rob0115 1,105]

What's so bad about having a pistol that's finger lickin' good?

[302w 83]

I really feel like the whole oil debate is overblown. I think that if we all used 3 in 1 nobody would even notice.

 

I use LSA myself. I liked CLP but it would dry up.

[High Exposure 5,662]

I have seen the following used on the AR:

 

WD 40

3in1 oil

Motor oil

Sewing machine oil

Urine

Saliva

Vagisil

Butter/margarine

Sunscreen

Olive oil

Astro Glide

 

They all kept the gun running, after a fashion - just about anything wet and slippery works for a while. The bottom line is, does it work the best for my application?

 

A lube that works great as a lube for 10,000 rounds, but bakes on and is hard to remove, is useless. A lube that is easy to clean, but wears off after 30 rounds is equally useless. A lube that crystallized and gums up the action of a weapon that isn't immediately wiped down offer shooting, is not good.

 

I have heard of quite a few people reporting that their weapons are getting locked up after using FireClean before shooting, then storing their guns for a while. I know a few agencies having this issue with FireClean used on agency guns that are carried often, but shot little (patrol rifles and shotguns). They need to spend an hour before a bi-annual qualification stripping the guns down and scraping brown, gummy crap with crystals in it off the moving parts before they can shoot.

 

Now, I know single user observation does not equal tests, but it does equal data of some type. One man saying that one item or another is the best has no relevance. Multiple people saying the same thing is still not as valuable as testing. But it's a clue.

 

You want to know how well it works? Well, what are the standards?

 

How many rounds fired?

How long was it left without shooting?

How much lube was applied?

Etc.....

 

Personally, I like stuff to have a MSDS. No, I don't understand all of the chemistry, but it is a reference to refer to when something goes wrong. I am suspect of chemical products that don't - what don't they want me to know? As a friend of mine says "I want to know if it has jello, the eyes of a newt, or liberal's tears in it".

 

I am unsure what the analysis above means to end users, except that the secret proprietary ingredients are most likely very common, and found at a much cheaper price from Stop & Shop than from Uncle Cheech's Tactical Warehouse.

 

I am interested to see how it all shakes out.

[tattooo 220]

Urine & vagasil ......:o

[High Exposure 5,662]

They both worked. In a pinch either will keep your rifle going pew pew pew...

 

I should bottle it and sell it as the new wonderlube!

[MidwestPX 172]

I saw this and said, "Where is your tacticool god now?!"  I bought a small bottle of FC because certain instructors who shall not be named were pimping it like the best thing since sliced bread.  After running it some, I didn't think it was anything special.  I didn't notice parts being easier to clean either.  However, I did throw it on some semi-auto handguns that I don't shoot as much and noticed the actions were slightly gummed up.  I had applied FC and stored the guns for a few months before shooting them.  My full-auto guns get either Slip, Weaponshield, or Sprinco's machine gunners lube.  The latter has shown to keep my beltfeds running longer between applications.  I like Slip as an on-the-range lubricant but not as much for storage since it's super high viscosity causes it to run off parts when rifles are stored vertically.  Weaponshield and MGL do the same if applied heavily.  I will say that I have found a new favorite cleaning solvent and that is Slip's carbon killer.  I've successfully removed tarnishing from NIB BCGs with that stuff.  I throw the parts in to soak, wipe them down then if they need any further cleaning, hit them with 725 and call it good.  Anything still on the part after that deserves to be there.

[tattooo 220]

They both worked. In a pinch either will keep your rifle going pew pew pew...

 

I should bottle it and sell it as the new wonderlube!

It'll sell like hot cakes

[checko 180]

Could've sworn I seen Vickers singing it's praises recently on FB but can't find it now.

 

I wouldn't be mad I was using Crisco, id be mad about the price I was buying it for when I could buy it at costco by the drum.

[SgtToadette 59]

Could've sworn I seen Vickers singing it's praises recently on FB but can't find it now.

 

I wouldn't be mad I was using Crisco, id be mad about the price I was buying it for when I could buy it at costco by the drum.

He definitely has. His Facebook is getting blown up right now.

 

I agree that people over think the whole lube thing. It's chemistry not alchemy.

[ReadDude 0]

Using variations of Crisco is a centuries long tradition. Ballistol was actually marketed at least informally as a gun cleaner and fry sauce by some folks... I buy T/C Bore Butter (and have seen half a dozen variants) that pride their source as essentially vegetable matter.  This guy just gave it more marketing spin. There ain't nuthin' new under the sun.

[blksheep 466]

I saw a guy eat Seal Lube.

[ogfarmer 138]

 

FIREClean

1 hr · Edited ·

We would like to address recent false or misleading allegations that range from simply misguided to false, defamatory, and libelous. These attacks have been made by competitors and others that paint our product in a false or misleading light. The allegations do not focus on actual performance or relevant tests, and draw a misleading picture.

FIREClean™ Advanced Gun Oil is a specifically formulated, technically superior weapon reliability solution that resists the harshest firing with enormous heat and carbon overload that seize most weapons. It is a formulation- made specifically for exceptional reliability in firearms and weapons- not a re-labeled or re-packaged product.

FIREClean™ has been proven in combat in Afghanistan by US Special Operations Forces, and is in use by Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force Special Operations. It is also in use by elements of the FBI, DHS, DEA, CBP, Secret Service, Department of State, various intelligence agencies as well as numerous State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies.

FIREClean™ has been successfully tested on and is in use on weapons from handguns and shotguns to fully automatic and suppressed individual weapons. It has also been successfully tested on and is in use on crew served weapons from 5.56mm M249s to 40mm Automatic Grenade Launchers.

In addition to over 3 years of Combat and Service/Duty usage, FIREClean™ has been used on the competition circuit by the best shooters in the world, including the US Army Marksmanship Unit. It has been used to win multiple National Championships in Pistol, 3 Gun, Sniping, and many other competitive shooting disciplines.

We are proud to be of service to those that bear arms in defense of our freedom, those that serve to keep us safe in our communities, and those that carry firearms for self defense. We are also pleased to be of service to tens of thousands of competitors, hunters, and recreational shooters- all of whom appreciate the highest possible levels of reliability and safety.

We believe that our performance speaks for itself. We offer what we and many others regard as the best, highest performing product on the market. We have not commented on the formulation, nor will we do so now. We have focused on performance, and we will continue to do so.

Rest assured that we will defend our good name against false, defamatory and libelous allegations using the full measure of remedies available to us.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[PD2K 115]

I stick with synthetic motor oil and high temp wheel grease.

 

Let the suckers pay big $$$ for lubrication.

[tattooo 220]

I saw a guy eat Seal Lube.

Uuuuuhhhhhhhh

[ogfarmer 138]

 

Larry Vickers

19 mins ·

So I've gotten numerous requests to weigh in on the' FIREClean is Crisco' drama so here goes;

1) I have no first hand knowledge of the FIREClean formula as the two brothers behind it have never shared the specific recipe with me. In fact they have never shared it with anyone that I am aware of - can't say I blame them as this is just protecting their brand

2) the FIREClean as Crisco debate doesn't pass the common sense test to me simply because FC has numerous patents pending on their product- none of which would ever be valid if it is simply a commercial off the shelf product like Crisco. Surely I'm not the only one who has wondered about this ? But then again if there was an agenda involved to smear FC then common sense would not be present on any level - and all indicators are that was the case

3) I'm puzzled on why some people are up in arms about it being a vegetable based product ? It's a 'Green' Eco Friendly product so that rules out Petroleum based - that only leaves plants and trees for the potential sources of the lubricant used. So what ?

4) the only problem I have had with it is thickening up on a 1911 I had in storage ( in fact some of you may remember my reporting that here in my FB page awhile back ) - after talking to the FC guys we determined I most likely applied it too thick AND I had not completely cleaned off any old non FC lubricant. It has been discovered that FC will react and thicken with some other products on the market so a thorough degrease is critical before application. This seems to be more critical with some weapons than others and the 1911 is the poster child. I do have a friend that has applied it on his 1911 as per exact FC instructions and has had no issues at all. I consider this an FYI to all who are using it - on some guns the degreasing before application is absolutely critical so follow the FC instructions closely.

5) FIREClean is in use by U.S. Tier One SOF with excellent results - it's performance in fully automatic weapons and suppressed weapons is without peer; the best I have ever seen or heard of. The fact some internet blogger 'experts' recommended against military use is laughable given its actual performance in the field has been superb. Take those recommendations with a grain of salt and consider the source. As per usual.

At the end of the day I'm impressed with FIREClean's performance and based on the feedback I get from students and others that use it I am not alone. If you want to believe the haters and think Crisco is just as good and FC is overpriced that's fine by me; drive on using whatever you want - won't bother me a bit

As always I stand behind anything I say or post and have an official 'open door ' policy - if you see me at SHOT show or at a class or at the range and you want to discuss this or any other topic in person I'm good with that - come on up, introduce yourself and let's talk

Face to face - like men- not behind a keyboard

Be safe and have a good one

LAV out

[302w 83]

I stick with synthetic motor oil and high temp wheel grease.

 

Let the suckers pay big $$$ for lubrication.

What do you use WBG on? I use the thick WBG on my SKS.

[A-Tech 8]

I've used FC on all of my weapons, almost since it was released. I haven't experienced any of the negative conditions mentioned by others. I love it and like Vickers said, an eco friendly lube can only be based off of plants, so what are the odds it looks similar to vegetable oil? If it works, then who cares? John of Ballistic Radio did a 15,000 round test with a suppressed AR and had only 1 malfunction that was magazine based. If it was called Obama's Milk, I'd still buy it.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I have seen the following used on the AR:

 

WD 40

3in1 oil

Motor oil

Sewing machine oil

Urine

Saliva

Vagisil

Butter/margarine

Sunscreen

Olive oil

Astro Glide

 

They all kept the gun running, after a fashion - just about anything wet and slippery works for a while. The bottom line is, does it work the best for my application?

 

A lube that works great as a lube for 10,000 rounds, but bakes on and is hard to remove, is useless. A lube that is easy to clean, but wears off after 30 rounds is equally useless. A lube that crystallized and gums up the action of a weapon that isn't immediately wiped down offer shooting, is not good.

 

I have heard of quite a few people reporting that their weapons are getting locked up after using FireClean before shooting, then storing their guns for a while. I know a few agencies having this issue with FireClean used on agency guns that are carried often, but shot little (patrol rifles and shotguns). They need to spend an hour before a bi-annual qualification stripping the guns down and scraping brown, gummy crap with crystals in it off the moving parts before they can shoot.

 

Now, I know single user observation does not equal tests, but it does equal data of some type. One man saying that one item or another is the best has no relevance. Multiple people saying the same thing is still not as valuable as testing. But it's a clue.

 

You want to know how well it works? Well, what are the standards?

 

How many rounds fired?

How long was it left without shooting?

How much lube was applied?

Etc.....

 

Personally, I like stuff to have a MSDS. No, I don't understand all of the chemistry, but it is a reference to refer to when something goes wrong. I am suspect of chemical products that don't - what don't they want me to know? As a friend of mine says "I want to know if it has jello, the eyes of a newt, or liberal's tears in it".

 

I am unsure what the analysis above means to end users, except that the secret proprietary ingredients are most likely very common, and found at a much cheaper price from Stop & Shop than from Uncle Cheech's Tactical Warehouse.

 

I am interested to see how it all shakes out.

^^^^^THIS is a GREAT post!  WELL-DONE Sir!

 

The following isn't directed at any specific Poster, but to the entire thread in general:

 

 

 

Bottom line is everyone is human, which means lazy, which means everybody is looking for a wonder-lube that applies itself, and stays-on after a cleaning.  In all types of firearms in all climates in all regions.  Of course, this mythical beast really doesn't exist, which is why NASA told Hasselblad (medium format camera manufacturer, based in Sweden) to REMOVE all of the lube from every camera that went into Space.  This was in the 60's before some of you were even born.  See, the temp range in Space runs from +150*F or more in direct sun to -400*For more (absolute ZERO).  And they took off-the-shelf camera body parts & German Zeiss lenses w/ mechanical shutters and made them work by removing the very thing that "extends their life", LUBE.  Gummy in the cold & runny in the heat, it created nothing but problems, so it was REMOVED from the equation (yes, this was a life-shortening decision for the parts in question, but the anticipated life-cycle far exceeded their Oxygen supply, so it didn't matter).

 

Urine on guns as a cleaner has been around for centuries.  Urine made many a water-cooled .30 MG function all through WW2 when water couldn't be schlepped up to the front lines or potable water couldn't be spared.  My Father was living proof of this.

 

Natural lubes from plants and animals have kept black powder guns firing for centuries.  Often certain types are better in certain specific climates and temp ranges.  The internet is replete with fine examples of "wonder sauces" proclaimed to be better than sliced bread, and often simple crisco will work better.  Aliens haven't invented a new periodic table of the elements, nor have they manufactured a chemical compound with a "secret ingredient" that will keep every gun firing in all conditions.  The most any of us can hope for is to EXTEND and WIDEN said temp range while at the same time hoping that long term storage won't affect the service life of said "wonder-sauce"..........

 

No matter how hard some of these new fan-dangled sauces try, the one thing they all must deal with is Mother Nature herself and the Physics of gunpowder FOULING.  I'm AMAZED that SCIENCE is actually being used for FC.  If those here wish to pay for it and it works for them, then so be it.  But somewhere in the back of my head is P.T. Barnum's famous line, "There's a SUCKER born every minute".  Rubbing alcohol cut 50-50 with water, a toothbrush and a light coat of olive oil (or NO oil at all in the extreme cold) will keep a fighting arm functioning.  And here's the mind-blowing part:  If you're depending upon a gun with super strict tolerances to never cease it's reliable function in every climate on God's green Earth, then you MAY be asking for the impossible.  Most SD situations don't require 1,000 yard shots, so some of us may want to re-think what we tend to demand from our small arms, even if that means sacrificing just a little accuracy for superior reliability in all climates.

 

I'll be following this so I can learn from you all.

 

Dave 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

I see everyone ranting and raving about specific oils, etc.

 

I just use Birchwood Casey Synthetic Gun Oil with PTFE.  Runs well in all my guns, even in the cold.  Doesn't break down like conventional oils.  Old guns that have been sitting for a while don't gum up or have any issues...

 

Anyone else use it?

[Vlad G 345]

I have a dirty secret: I don't buy gun oils, and I havent done so in years. Whatever the hell I get for free from matches gets used. It is works like crap it gets thrown out, if it works I keep using it until I'm out and then moving on. Right now I'm working my way through of few bottles of Italian Gun Grease cleaners and lubricants (motto: "Made From Italians, By Italians!", or at least I imagine it is) and you know what .. it works, just like most lube's I've used worked. Their cleaner is ok too. 

[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

I saw this and said, "Where is your tacticool god now?!"  I bought a small bottle of FC because certain instructors who shall not be named were pimping it like the best thing since sliced bread.  After running it some, I didn't think it was anything special.  I didn't notice parts being easier to clean either.  However, I did throw it on some semi-auto handguns that I don't shoot as much and noticed the actions were slightly gummed up.  I had applied FC and stored the guns for a few months before shooting them.  My full-auto guns get either Slip, Weaponshield, or Sprinco's machine gunners lube.  The latter has shown to keep my beltfeds running longer between applications.  I like Slip as an on-the-range lubricant but not as much for storage since it's super high viscosity causes it to run off parts when rifles are stored vertically.  Weaponshield and MGL do the same if applied heavily.  I will say that I have found a new favorite cleaning solvent and that is Slip's carbon killer.  I've successfully removed tarnishing from NIB BCGs with that stuff.  I throw the parts in to soak, wipe them down then if they need any further cleaning, hit them with 725 and call it good.  Anything still on the part after that deserves to be there.

 

Slip Carbon Killer is freaking amazing. It really does make cleaning much easier.

I stick with synthetic motor oil and high temp wheel grease.

 

Let the suckers pay big $$$ for lubrication.

 

I use high temp bearing grease for my pistols as well. For rifles I stick with Slip 2000. I was using Frog lube, until I went to the range last winter. My gun ran fine, but when I went to open up the tub to apply some to a buddy's gun, it was frozen solid. I did some research when I got home, and sure enough, people were complaining about how it gums up in cold temps. I personally never had a malfunction with Frog Lube in low temps, but it was incentive enough to look for an alternative. I would still use Hoppes 9 if it weren't for the horrible smell. Yes, I'm a pussy.

 

I've also used motor oil in a pinch without any issues.

[tattooo 220]

Fireclean responded on the firearm blog denying the allegations

[PD2K 115]

What do you use WBG on? I use the thick WBG on my SKS.

I use it on my all my pistols, or wherever you need the lubrication to stick.

 

Generally speaking, I use high temp wheel bearing grease in place of gun grease, and synthetic motor oil in place of gun oil.

[ogfarmer 138]

Fireclean responded on the firearm blog denying the allegations

yeah I posted theirs and larry vickers responses above.