USSOCOM Issues Safety of Use Message for EOTech

[High Exposure 5,664]

None of this should come as a surprise. The issues with this optic has been discussed for quite some time.

 

Some points to consider while perusing:

 

All optics have parallax to some degree regardless of what the manufacturer's clams are - yes, even Aimpoint.

 

RDS are not precision instruments

 

The again, neither is the M4 carbine, M855 Ball (or most any ammo generally fed to a standard carbine), or - and this is the most important factor - the an overwhelming number of end users

 

There is always, to some extent or another, some +/- in adjustments

 

Note: The article is too long to post in its entirety. It is good reading though.

 

http://soldiersystems.net/2015/09/30/something-is-amiss-at-l3-warrior-systems-eotech/

 

I heard about the temperature shift issues when working with some regional FBI SWAT dudes a while ago. They told me that some guns were tested at Quantico and the change in POA/POI was significant. I was also told that the FBI is now issuing Aimpoint H-1's.

 

It's not like these issues were a super secret that nobody talked about. It's more that nobody cared. NSW and USSOF used them and killed more people than cancer with EOTechs on their rifles. When the issues were brought up them, the response from that community was often - "the reticle is faster for me" or "they make it in FDE". Okay, got your priorities.

 

Then again, the individual shooters weren't paying for it, their units had a huge equipment logistics supply for spare optics, batteries, armorers, technicians, and they had a special relationship with the manufacturer that got them preferential treatment when it came to repairs and replacements - again, all on Uncle Sam's dime.

 

Of course after reading this maybe all those folks who told us that they use EOTechs because "that's what operators use" may feel a little different today. Maybe they will realize that the Aimpoint folks were not lying to them. But probably not.....

[Krdshrk 3,877]

 

 

+/- 4 MOA shift at -40 Deg F and 122 Deg F.

 

noted between 4 and 6 MOA parallax error depending on temperature conditions

[High Exposure 5,664]

We won't see the cold, but the inside of a car can easily get to +122F in the summer.

 

Once the shift occurs, my understanding is the rifle has lost zero.

 

This POI shift is also in addition to the other multitude of issues the EOTech has - from battery life, to the engineering of the battery box.

[fatty 241]

so that basically means everyone that has had an eotech in the trunk on a HOT (120+ degrees F) summer day (or military personnel overseas in the desert) has lost zero?  has this been a known widespread issue in the past? 

 

kinda strange this comes out now considering how long eotechs have been in use

 

I think people in NJ should be fine, no?

[djg0770 481]

I think people in NJ should be fine, no?

 

That's a definite maybe.  Do you trust your life to a firearm that maybe works?

[Vlad G 345]

My problem with eotech has been that I've never seen one actually ... What do you call it ... Oh yeah ... Work. I admit that it might be me cursing them or something but whenever I've seen someone shoot them the batteries go flat or shift or the mounts go pear shaped or something bad happens to them

 

 

I'm forced to admit that some of them somewhere sometime must work or they would be treated like BSA red dots by the world at large, but I think the first non breaking one I've seen was last weekend

[High Exposure 5,664]

I have had the same experimce as Vlad. I had an EO (it lives on a .22 AR trainer now - not on something life saving) and our team used to issue EOs on duty guns. We had many many issues with them. Now we issue PROs. I have seen a brand new EO not last through T1 of a 3 day class when it's battery box shit the bed. The optic was a total loss.

 

As far as I know, Mark only has that optics on his rifle because he spends $$ on his other toys and can afford to replace it and he has had extraordinary luck with it running.

 

Also he is fastidious with his gear and capable of making repairs to the major EOTech killing culprits on his own.

[fatty 241]

have you guys seen/experienced failures on the EXPS line?  any particular model that's had problems?  their entire product line can't be bad lol... (i hope)

 

my EXPS2-0 has been running perfectly fine for the past year or so

[High Exposure 5,664]

Yes.

 

The old EOs had an issue with recoil killing the springs in the battery box that constituted the battery contacts. So they turned the battery 90 degrees to alleviate the issue, and the EXPS line was born. The problem with that is CR123 batteries are not designed to take recoil impulses along the short axis, they are designed to take shocks along the long axis. Repeated force of recoil exerted to the short axis abuses batteries.

I have seen batteries swell so much they couldn't be removed without surgical tools. I have so seen batteries burst in the battery box with the resulting mess and killing of the optic until it is returned for repairs.

[Lalo 13]

I guess for operators that have to operate operationally, this is definitely something very concerning. And if I were in their shoes, sure, I wouldn't use an EoTech if I had to trust my life on it. As a civilian shooting enthusiast who likes to take training classes, go to the range and participate in matches and whose rifle is most likely never going to experience those environmental conditions because it sits in a safe when not in use... maybe not as important.

 

I ran an XPS2 for a couple of years. I took some training classes and obviously saw a lot of range time and I never had an issue with it. Never lost zero, never turned off on me while shooting, never had an issue with the battery. I then traded that for an EXPS3-2 and have shot maybe a 1000 rounds through it and again, never an issue. I'm sure if my use case was different like that of a LEO or military personnel, things might be different.

 

I'm by no means an EoTech fanboy and I do think they are overpriced, but I like the optic. I'll admit though, I have an Aimpoint T1 on my latest go-to AR.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

operators that have to operate operationally

 

Ha haaaaaaa.....

 

[High Exposure 5,664]

[Vlad G 345]

Well that dude seems to be using an ELCAN but his bad choices started with the SCAR

 

I kid, I kid, the SCAR is fine for what it is.

[tattooo 220]

so that basically means everyone that has had an eotech in the trunk on a HOT (120+ degrees F) summer day (or military personnel overseas in the desert) has lost zero? has this been a known widespread issue in the past?

 

kinda strange this comes out now considering how long eotechs have been in use

 

I think people in NJ should be fine, no?

Yeah....I think were good here

[Vlad G 345]

Sure, just don't ever leave your black gun in the sun at the range for any length of time. I've burned myself on mine on occasion, just for having it stand in a rack for an hour on a 90+ day. I wonder what the temperature of the optic was ...

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Well that dude seems to be using an ELCAN but his bad choices started with the SCAR

 

I kid, I kid, the SCAR is fine for what it is.

At least it wasn't a FN F2000?

[tattooo 220]

I love my Bushmaster ACR ...... Picked her over the SCAR

 

Non reciprocating CH

[SJG 253]

Do all EO's or only select models have the problem referenced in the link?

Military and civilian versions?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

My 516 is flawless

[tattooo 220]

My XPS 2-0 is flawless as well

[Shawnmoore81 623]

All an eotech is suppose to do is make you quickly acquire your target. You don't shoot matches with them. You can hit center mass with ease

[Vlad G 345]

All an eotech is suppose to do is make you quickly acquire your target. You don't shoot matches with them. You can hit center mass with ease

 

I feel like you don't understand how aiming works, or even how matches work. 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I understand how it works. In a match I wouldn't use an eotech. I'd use irons or a magnified optic. But if you run through a house an eotech helps you get on target fast

[djg0770 481]

 if you run through a house an eotech helps you get on target fast

 

Nothing helps you get on target fast if the batteries continuously fail, the optic can't hold zero, or the thing ends up being another piece of useless crap strapped to the top of your junk.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

Do enough searching and you will find just as many people reporting issues with Aimpoint sights. I personally had an awful time with Aimpoint customer service. They never answered any request for repair support. I now run irons on all but one, one gun has an ACOG

 

Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I replace my batteries every 6 months. They have never died or even became low. I have storage in my grip with 2 batteries and the magpul str stock with batteries hidden. Those cr123 batteries hold strong

[Vlad G 345]

I understand how it works. In a match I wouldn't use an eotech. I'd use irons or a magnified optic. But if you run through a house an eotech helps you get on target fast

 

Yeah I don't think you do.  There is ZERO difference between your two scenarios when it comes to aiming. 

 

Don't take this personally, a lot of people have this misconception that somehow there are these vast differences in how you aim at various targets under various circumstances, but really it is a lot simpler then people realize. 

 

You need to see ENOUGH information to make the hit you want to make. Sometimes that means keeping down your heartbeat so the little fine crosshair doesn't move to much on that tinny 400+ yard target and some times it means seeing your muzzle vaguely on target because it is only 5 feet away, but you always need to get enough information about the relationship between your gun and the target.  That is all that aiming is, it is a vision game.

 

The rules of that game include one massive assumption, that whatever you are using on your gun as an indication of alignment is actually consistent enough that it is repeatable and accurate enough to make that shot.  

 

Note that nothing so far makes any distinction between precision shooting, run-and-gun competition, or clearing your house because it doesn't matter, you still need to see enough to make a hit, regardless of the why and the where. You always want to be on target fast, and you always want to be on target accurately. 

 

So here is where we get to the fallacy of "eotech is good enough for house clearing" in view of this latest information. If the hologram doesn't display at all angles and it loses paralax, you are not going to see it. If the zero has shifted enough you won't see the consistent relationship you expect if you need to make a tight shot around a hostage. If the batteries have crapped out you won't see anything. 

 

 

And here is the final kicker .. in a match if I have a problem I lose some points or some pride and maybe I have to buy the beers. In a some theoretical house clearing if I lose the consequences would be far greater. How the hell do you justify using a substandard product that might fail on you or be inaccurate when you play for all the marbles?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

So you don't see the advantage to having the eotech which allows both eyes to be open and all you gotta do is get that big ring around center mass. Compared to a magnified optic where you need proper relief and focus while engaging targets in close quarters?

[Vlad G 345]

Lots of things allow both eyes open, including most red dots and a surprising number of amplified optics either at 1x or the various Acog type sights. 

 

Are you assuming that the eotech is the the only thing on earth that does this?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I know they aren't. But now let's back the target up 300 yards. Not none of that matters. You want magnification and thin cross hairs.