Banning of "types" of guns...

[vladtepes 1,060]

I just skimmed this.. but came across it when searching something else... is this a known case? 

I don't really have a question about it.. but it is discussing the vague nature of banning gun types...

 

https://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/mcs/case_law/322_njsuper_401.pdf

 

 

[fatty 241]

I'd recommend this case from 2001:  State of NJ vs Petrucci [ Indictment No. 92-09-1101 ]

 

https://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/mcs/case_law/343_njsuper_536.htm

 

 

 

Discusses what constitutes as "Substantially Identical" to a listed "Assault Weapon" and provides an opinion (Page 9):

 

"The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list.

 

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

 

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

  1. a folding or telescoping stock;

  2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

  3. a bayonet mount;

  4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;

     and

  5. a grenade launcher."

[Silence Dogood 468]

TO: Director Terrence P. Farley, Division of Criminal Justice
All County Prosecutors
All Law Enforcement Chief Executives FROM: Attorney General Peter Verniero DATE: August 19, 1996 SUBJECT: Guidelines Regarding the "Substantially Identical" Provision in the State's Assault Firearms Laws

I. Introduction

In recent weeks there has been a question about the meaning of the term "substantially identical" in New Jersey's assault firearms law. The Legislature addressed this question in the provisions of the Code of Criminal Justice, and despite the clarity of the law, it is appropriate for the Attorney General to provide guidance to the prosecutors in order to ensure that the law is administered uniformly and effectively throughout the State. N.J.S.A. 52:17B-98. I am directing the prosecutors, as chief law enforcement officers of their respective counties, to share this guidance with local police departments, who in turn should provide copies of this memorandum to any member of the public who requests information on assault firearms.

 

II. Guidelines

New Jersey law lists firearms that are prohibited "assault firearms." N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(1). In addition, the law provides that the term "assault firearm" includes, "Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed" in the law. N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(2). Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm.

We believe "substantially identical" is clear by its plain meaning. The Criminal Code provides that the statutes in the Code must be read "according to the fair import of their terms." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2c. The Criminal Code explains that where language may be susceptible to different readings it must be construed to "give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2a.(4), c. Simply put, the phrase "substantially identical" must be given its plain meaning, one that gives fair warning.

The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list.

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

 

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

1. a folding or telescoping stock;

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

a bayonet mount;

a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

a grenade launcher;

 

B. a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and

a semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and,

C. a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following:

 

1. a folding or telescoping stock;

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

III. Inquiries from Private Citizens

Law enforcement officers should, whenever possible, attempt to be helpful and to respond to inquiries concerning particular firearms. Private citizens should also be encouraged to consult with their own attorneys and, where necessary, referred to the Firearms Unit of the Division of State Police.

 

IV. Purpose and Effect of these Guidelines

In enforcing this law, prosecutors and police should remember that an assault firearms offense requires proof that the defendant knows he or she possesses an assault firearm, e.g., that the defendant knows that the firearm is "substantially identical" to one of the named assault weapons.

These guidelines should be followed by all county prosecutors and all law enforcement officers in this State so that the State's assault firearms laws will be uniformly enforced throughout the State.

[vladtepes 1,060]

right but this is not about substantially identical is it? it is about "types" being illegal.. 

[jackandjill 683]

From reading that document, I learned:

 

1. Don't make silly statements to Police. In fact, don't make any statements at all. Judge will be glad to hang you with your rope and will be sure to make note about it.

2. Ignorance CAN be bliss. Conversely, if you pretend to know about it, they will hang you with your own rope.

3. If the firearm has any name, marketing, wordings that match with similar names on that list, they can hang you.

4. There is a reference to following in that Coalition Of New Jersey Sportsman case

----

"we insist that laws give the person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, so that he may act accordingly."

----

NJ Judicial Systems would simply ask a carefully selected "12 persons of ordinary intelligence" if "this black gun looks like this other black gun".. BAM! Due process satisfied, no vagueness and otherwise law abiding citizen convicted...

 

Next Case...

[S14Swap240sx 6]

right but this is not about substantially identical is it? it is about "types" being illegal.. 

 

Well what makes a rifle a type? The fact the barrel said m1 carbine caused the issue.

 

No reasonable person of ordinary intelligence can define a weapon by type. To be honest i would have no idea what i was lookin at with a m1 carbine and i pay to be a member on a forum devoted to firearms. And if infact you need to show me a picture of a m1 carbine, now we are playing the substantially similar game because in appearance and material its the same, so now we have to look at the evil features.

 

Do you get what im putting down? Because I believe i am of ordinary intelligence, and i am capable of working, driving, paying taxes, and running a simple clean household. BUT if you asked me to point to a m1 carbine type, or a substantially similar firearm that falls within the evil feature clause of legality i would not be able to do so.. The writing on the barrel tho would give me a strong indication that it may in fact be a m1 carbine type which would short change the substantially identical, evil feature case. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Well what makes a rifle a type? The fact the barrel said m1 carbine caused the issue.

 

No reasonable person of ordinary intelligence can define a weapon by type. To be honest i would have no idea what i was lookin at with a m1 carbine and i pay to be a member on a forum devoted to firearms. And if infact you need to show me a picture of a m1 carbine, now we are playing the substantially similar game because in appearance and material its the same, so now we have to look at the evil features.

 

Do you get what im putting down? Because I believe i am of ordinary intelligence, and i am capable of working, driving, paying taxes, and running a simple clean household. BUT if you asked me to point to a m1 carbine type, or a substantially similar firearm that falls within the evil feature clause of legality i would not be able to do so.. The writing on the barrel tho would give me a strong indication that it may in fact be a m1 carbine type which would short change the substantially identical, evil feature case. 

 

there was an M1 carbine type a few years ago that everyone got hyped over... NJ shut it down.. no markings of "m1 carbine"