S&W Shoots Themselves in the Foot

[High Exposure 5,664]

This is what happens when lawyers get involved. I am hearing that the Lawyers took it upon themselves to issue the Cease and Desist Order, but that could be spin from S&W Corprate to limit damage in the arena of public perception.

 

Combine this with the recent Remington Debacle and the firearms industry look like it is wearing litigious Clownshoes.

 

S&W Sends Cease and Desist Letter to Custom Gunsmiths

 

Read more: http://www.recoilweb.com/sw-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-custom-gunsmiths-80507.html#ixzz3v6dFZVVY

 

Late last week the special Smith & Wesson M&P build for the Brownells Dream Guns Project was announced. Today the parties involved, to include Apex Tactical, Brownells, DP Custom Works, Blowndeadline Custom, and SSvi all received a Cease & Desist letter from a law firm representing Smith and Wesson. In part that letter included this:

 

It has recently come to Smith & Wesson’s attention that you have developed and are promoting for sale an “M&P Dream Gun,” (the “Infringing Product”). To create this product, you have modified an authentic Smith & Wesson M&P® 9mm pistol by, inter alia, changing the grip texture and shape, machining the slide, and adding numerous accessories and replacement parts, while retaining the S&W® Logo on the product. The December 18, 2015 Apex press release announcing this product and explaining Apex’s intent to exhibit the Infringing Product at the January 2016 SHOT Show exhibition is attached to this correspondence as Exhibit B. The numerous alterations made to the original design of Smith & Wesson’s firearms constitute not only unauthorized modifications to Smith & Wesson’s proprietary designs and misuse of Smith & Wesson’s trademarks, but present significant safety and quality concerns. Indeed, these modifications void the Smith & Wesson factory warranty on these products. Your advertisement and display of the Infringing Product to promote your gunsmithing services, and other products and services, constitutes misuse of Smith & Wesson’s trademarks and must cease.

 

The demands are listed thusly:

These intellectual property and safety and quality concerns are extremely serious and demand your immediate attention. Accordingly, we demand that you:

1. Confirm in writing that neither you nor any third party will display the Infringing Product, or any similar product, at the 2016 SHOT Show or make any other commercial display or promotion of such Infringing Product;

2. Cease the sale of any firearm modified by you or any other third party that bears any Smith & Wesson trademark, including, but not limited to the S&W® Marks or the M&P® Marks;

and

3. Turn over to Smith & Wesson your inventory of the Infringing Product, or any Smith & Wesson product modified by you in the first instance that bears any mark owned by Smith & Wesson.

If we do not hear from you by January 5, 2015, Smith & Wesson will pursue its rights and remedies to the fullest extent permitted by law without further notice to you.

 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

IANAL

 

Not sure of the legal ground S&W is treading in regard to demanding the modified guns be returned. I would think the modifiers would be OK as long as they don't represent the gun as a S&W. Of course there has apparently been a modicum of pre-sale publicity identifying the product as a S&W and you can't unring the bell.

 

S&W absolutely owns their trademarks and are perfectly within their rights to force the modifiers to de-identify the gun and make no reference to the basis of the modified product. I worked for a vehicle manufacturer and one of my roles was to assess liability exposure of modified vehicles. We had a dealer who, against our advice, modified one of our vehicles in a manner that we felt was unsafe or reflected badly on our product or company. We were able to force them to de-identify the vehicle. Pretty much the same scenario here.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Parker 213]

Some of the big gunmakers lost their sense of direction a long time ago. 

 

I stopped looking at S&W's when they opted to put that silly safety on their revolver. Blasphemy!

[67gtonut 847]

I don't know.....

I seem to get where S&W is coming from.... In this case

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

[Gus 33]

These businesses are using S&W logos to promote themselves. Promotion = Sales = Money. S&W has a lot of money and time invested in their name and logos. They are entitled to do with them as they see fit.

 

I own a few businesses myself. For someone else to use my name, logos, and brands, would be the same as taking money out of my pocket, and profiting off of my sweat and effort.

 

It also opens S&W up to lawsuits. If someone happens to get hurt by this gun, the lawyers are going to sue everybody, regardless. They aren't going to give S&W's deep pockets a pass because they weren't involved in the modifications.

 

I don't know anything about this project, but if it is something the other people involved believe in, then take the S&W logos off the gun, and take full responsibility for any consequences. That way S&W is covered, and you get all the credit for the successes (and/or failures) of your work.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Bullshit. That statement is idiocy.

 

According to their statement, every single person that has put an Apex trigger in their M&P, every person that replaced the MIM parts on a SW 1911, everyone that has swapped springs on a 686 looking for a smoother trigger, every Geissele trigger, BCM Charging Handle, addition of an optic, or any necessary modification to make it NJ Legal done to a S&W Sporter AR carbine, has violated the "policy" that their lawyers are trying to enforce.

 

So I guess anyone making parts and accessories for a S&W firearm can expect one of those letters? Aimpoint, Brownells, Apex, all the guys that do grip reduction/stippling/contouring? All the NJ FFL that do compliance work?

 

Regardless of the fact that it flat out flies in the face of 500 years of gunsmith modifications, personalizations, and enhancements - what about all those fancy engraved revolvers from way back when? They are all in violation of this policy.

 

If S&W succeeds in preventing any non-factory mods, they'd be throwing a large part of their market to Glock, Springfield, HK, etc... Who, I am sure, would be more than happy to gobble the extra money up with a smile and a wink while encouraging everyone to "make that gun what you want".

 

Instead of this idiocy, perhaps S&W should take a look at what shooters, (you know - the folks that are their customers) are willing to spend money on to get the gun they want. S&W should then be figuring out a way to build the product the shooters want, and get folks to spend the money on S&W - not a gunsmith.

 

S&W stepped on their dick while wearing golf shoes with this one.

[Gus 33]

You are comparing apples to oranges. This has nothing to do with consumers modifying their products, or gunsmithing, or personalizations, etc. This has to do with using a proprietary name, you don't own, or have paid into, for profit.

 

S&W has an issue with other BUSINESSES using the S&W name to promote themselves and make money. Why should they get to use S&W's name for free?

 

It's like opening my own burger place, and naming it McDonalds. Why would I get to enjoy the McDonalds name, the national McDonalds marketing campaigns, the McDonalds logo, and all the  customers that McDonalds publicity attracts, without having to pay McDonalds for it?

 

Why do people pay McDonalds for the priviledge of opening a burger place? Because more people will go to McDonalds than to High Exposure's Magic Hamburger Emporium. There is value in the name, and that value is not given away for free.

 

S&W spends millions promoting themselves, and they are just going to let anyone use the name without permission? Do you realize how much money and effort it costs to develop a brand?

[Gus 33]

Trust me. Had these companies sent S&W a check for the rights to use their logo, we wouldn't be talking about this.

 

That cease and desist letter is legalise for "Give us our CUT!"

 

Someone will write a check, S&W will get paid for their logo (which they rightfully should), these other businesses will sell tons of modifiacations, and accessories, everyone will make buckets of cash and be happy.

[High Exposure 5,664]

It is not apples to oranges at all. This has everything to do with consumers and gunsmiths modding pistols.

 

2. Cease the sale of any firearm modified by you or any other third party that bears any Smith & Wesson trademark, including, but not limited to the S&W® Marks or the M&P® Marks

Ergo, if I buy a S&W M&P, install an Apex trigger and subsequently sell it to someone as a S&W M&P with Apex Trigger I am violating their policy and ripping S&W off? So I should then remove the S&W markings on the above referenced pistol and put my own custom marking on it? Cmon...

 

No one is building pistol from scratch and calling it a S&W to steal their name. They are taking an existing S&W product and modifying it to fit the end users needs.

 

That's like saying you can't buy a Dodge pickup, put new wheels and a cap on it and still sell it as a Dodge.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Trust me. Had these companies sent S&W a check for the rights to use their logo, we wouldn't be talking about this.

 

That cease and desist letter is legalise for "Give us our CUT!"

 

Someone will write a check, S&W will get paid for their logo (which they rightfully should), these other businesses will sell tons of modifiacations, and accessories, everyone will make buckets of cash and be happy.

S&W should only get paid for the use of their logo on non S&W merchandise.

 

To sell a S&W product that I already purchased and modified to my liking, I shouldn't have to give S&W a cut.

 

I predict we will see S&W backpedal so fast from this that we all hear a sonic boom.

[Gus 33]

My friend, it has nothing to really do with the mods at all.

 

These guys advertised the hell out of this thing, in an effort to drive business to their respective sites. Had they said in those ads "Hey! We took a NO NAME gun, with NO BRAND, and NOTHING you could relate to, or have EVER heard of, and did some cool stuff to it!" No consumer would have spent another second looking at that ad, and they would make no money.

 

However, they didn't do that, did they? They said "Hey! We took a gun that you probably own, or know about, or have a buddy that has one, or might be thinking of buying, and we did cool stuff to it! Come to our site and buy stuff, and you could have this cool gun too!"

 

Apex Tactical, Brownell's, DP Custom Works, Blowndeadline Custom, and SSvi, all made money using S&W's name without permission. S&W has a right to profit from their name, and have the opportunity to decline being part of another company's advertising.

[Gus 33]

S&W should only get paid for the use of their logo on non S&W merchandise.

 

To sell a S&W product that I already purchased and modified to my liking, I shouldn't have to give S&W a cut.

 

I predict we will see S&W backpedal so fast from this that we all hear a sonic boom.

 

There is a reason we have copyright, trademark, and patent laws in this country. Obviously, you are not seeing this as a trademark issue between businesses, but a personal property issue. That's your right to see it that way, but the article you posted doesn't support what your saying.

 

Never the less, there is no sense in debating this any further, as it is clear we are talking about two different things.

[Vlad G 345]

Actually I think I'm with S&W here.

 

If you read it carefully it only really defends their logo and trademark and themselves from lawsuit. This is different from a custom gunsmith selling 1911 they built from the ground up, the end product still has the the S&W logos on it which means that if it breaks ot if it used in a crime or whatever people will still probably hold S&W responsible. Additionally, all of the people involved are planning to profit from modifying a trademarked item and plastering it all over the place without the trademark holder making any money (directly).

 

Where I think S&W has put on the clownshoes is by not participating in the whole mess in the first place. Their attitude should have been "how can we help" and "lets get my sales person involved" but maybe it was and the rest of the people involved told them to shove off.

 

It is interesting that S&W is very stand off-ish with the aftermarket in general. Most aftermarket parts are there despite of them (Randy Lee of Apex states out right that it seems all S&W engineers seem to be banned from speaking with him) and the availability of spare parts via the usual sources is spotty and some parts are oddly never available. That seems slightly mad.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I'm with S&W on this one. They could have just said we can modify AR's if you want to upgrade your M&P, as in you buy the base gun.

[alec.mc 180]

Quick ! Back pedal ! We didn't mean it !

 

 

http://bearingarms.com/smith-wesson-fully-understand-dream-gun-project-apologizes/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate

[RichP 115]

Not so sure I agree with S&W here. For one, they are getting paid, since the base gun must be purchased. Therefore, S&W IS making money on gun, but it looks like they want to get a bigger cut of the modified pistol as well.

If the modified gun was built from scratch to clone an M&P, then my stance would be reversed.

 

There are literally thousands of custom gunbuilders that use factory frames, receivers and actions without removing the manufacturers logo.

With the recent introductions of newly designed handguns by other top manufacturers, S&W better tread carefully in relying on their trademark and begin working more on new products.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/daniel-zimmerman/smith-wesson-re-thinks-its-approach-to-brownells-mp-dream-gun/

 

More of a clarification than a backpedal?

[mustang69 505]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/daniel-zimmerman/smith-wesson-re-thinks-its-approach-to-brownells-mp-dream-gun/

 

More of a clarification than a backpedal?

Nope - that was a major backpedal...

[PD2K 115]

Total 180 back-pedal on S&W:

 

http://bearingarms.com/smith-wesson-fully-understand-dream-gun-project-apologizes/

[High Exposure 5,664]

Quick ! Back pedal ! We didn't mean it !

http://bearingarms.com/smith-wesson-fully-understand-dream-gun-project-apologizes/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate

Total 180 back-pedal on S&W:

 

http://bearingarms.com/smith-wesson-fully-understand-dream-gun-project-apologizes/

Nope - that was a major backpedal...

Yup. Just as I predicted....

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter. The letters you reference originated at a lower level within our organization in an attempt to protect our brand. However, the letters were clearly a mistake and we are taking the necessary steps to insure that this type of mistake does not occur again and that we have better oversight in the future. We apologize, we appreciate your past loyalty, and we truly hope that we can count on your future support. Please see the statements below from our company and from Brownells.

 

James Debney, President and CEO of Smith & Wesson, said, “I would like to clarify that we fully support the Brownells Dream Guns® Project and we appreciate that it showcases the many ways in which our customers – loyal fans of our M&P brand – can choose to customize their M&P firearms. Our decision to contact the companies that worked on the project was intended to protect the trademarks that support the M&P brand. When a product bears the Smith & Wesson and M&P trademarks and is purchased new with our lifetime service policy, we want to be sure that the consumer knows it has passed our demanding quality standards. In our efforts to protect that promise and to preserve the brand that we and our customers cherish, we did not fully understand the intent of the Dream Guns® Project and we overlooked the opportunity to convey our enthusiasm for the creativity and innovation that Brownells and all of the companies involved have demonstrated. We look forward to seeing the firearm on display at the upcoming SHOT Show in January and at the NRA in May.”

 

“Yesterday I spoke with James Debney, President of Smith & Wesson, who called me regarding the M&P® Brownells/Apex Dream Gun™,” said Matt Buckingham, Brownells President. “It was a simple misunderstanding about the intention of the project. He made it clear that Smith & Wesson is excited to have their product featured in this fun and unique way. For our part, we are honored to include it in our Dream Gun lineup. Smith & Wesson is a legendary brand in this industry and we continue to be proud partners with them.”

Boom

[T Bill 649]

Crow on the table for Christmas at S&W.  "No bonus for you!" for somebody in that lawyer's office. Didn't take long to find out who butter's their bread.  A$$hats. 

[tattooo 220]

I disagree....it makes no sense...... you dont see auto makers threatening those custom car shops that are on TV when they totally change the cars design & void the warranty & in some cases are less safe ???

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I think it's petty bull crap. S&w should be better then that and should encourage companies to make modifications for their firearms.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I think it's petty bull crap. S&w should be better then that and should encourage companies to make modifications for their firearms.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But what happens when, say, a glock gets a trigger job and malfunctions? I'm just curious because people seem to think its a great idea until all of a sudden it isn't.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Then you look at the trigger job. Try buying a new mustang and throwing a blower on it. See how good your warranty is

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tattooo 220]

Then you look at the trigger job. Try buying a new mustang and throwing a blower on it. See how good your warranty is

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly ^^^

[Vlad G 345]

There is a difference, eventually they are going to sell that gun as "new". Who is covering the warranty for it? Which one of the 4-6 companies involved? If that gun ends up AD'ing and killing someone's dog, who is the responsible party and more importantly who will the news paint as the responsible party?

 

Yes, sending lawyer paper on this issue is retarded and I'm betting it wasn't socialized around S&W properly first, but I can see why the lawyers would send it.

 

This isn't cars folks, if cars were introduced today they would be banned, and you should stop comparing cars to guns, because odds are in our life time cars will become robots we don't really drive and you don't want car logic applied to guns.

[tattooo 220]

I seriously doubt cars if they were introduced today would be banned and peoe would prefer horse and buggy ???? Both are new manufactured items with a warranty that is then voided after modifications.....it's a good comparison

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Then you look at the trigger job. Try buying a new mustang and throwing a blower on it. See how good your warranty is

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I feel this concept is lost on you... You did not buy a mustang and throw a blower on it.... the mustang was sold to you as a new mustang with an aftermarket blower already installed.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I seriously doubt cars if they were introduced today would be banned and peoe would prefer horse and buggy ???? Both are new manufactured items with a warranty that is then voided after modifications.....it's a good comparison

There is a huge difference between selling a product to someone, who is free to modify it as they please.... compared to a retailer taking a new product modifying and selling it as new.