Catastrophic Pistol Failures

[bhunted 887]

Ok gang. I'm starting this thread in lieu of the rants about Kimber.

Please keep it civil and factual. Our last posts there involved N4 and myself. I'd like to keep it going. No tirades. Just good factual conversation. Antagonists need not apply.

 

 

 

 

 

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[bhunted 887]

Well quality has gone down, they released the same model with 100 different flashy and useless finishes, and my least favorite, switched to a long extractor so they can cut cost with MIM parts. Essentially making them like kimber. The legion series is the only thing I think they've done that is actually pretty nice. Add that to putting the sig brand on every piece of crappy imported kit possible and claiming its higher quality than it is.

 

It does seem that their newer offerings have been more interesting. Let's hope the quality is there.

Btw, I enjoy this type of conversation N4....

But I think I will start another thread.

 

 

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[robot_hell 72]

What are we talking about? Kabooms? Can and will happen with any brand of pistol... Lemons happen. Sometimes it's operator error. That kB'd Glock? Could have been a stress fracture from the factory, or it could have ben 18 grains of WW231. Exploded Colt... could have been poor heat treating, or a 180 gr bullet seated flush in a .38 case. A lot easier to folks blame the manufacturer than it is to admit a user screw-up.

[High Exposure 5,661]

This is silly.

 

All pistols will have examples that fail. Everyone knows that anything built by man can, and will, fail. This will prove nothing new.

 

Keep in mind this info is only useful when you compare the number of failures you find, measured against the numbers of that brand's pistols out there, vs the number of rounds through them prior to the failure, vs the quality of ammo, vs how well the pistol was taken care of..... And so on and so on.

 

There will no factual evidence of what occurred, just a photo an anecdotal story - unless you were there and saw it happen.

 

Have at it, but it will demonstrate nothing useful.

[bhunted 887]

This is silly.

 

All pistols will have examples that fail. Everyone knows that anything built by man can, and will, fail. This will prove nothing new.

 

Keep in mind this info is only useful when you compare the number of failures you find, measured against the numbers of that brand's pistols out there, vs the number of rounds through them prior to the failure, vs the quality of ammo, vs how well the pistol was taken care of..... And so on and so on.

 

There will no factual evidence of what occurred, just a photo an anecdotal story - unless you were there and saw it happen.

 

Have at it, but it will demonstrate nothing useful.

So you are saying that you've seen 3 and that is just cause to damn them? You just mentioned its anecdotal but isn't that your story too?

Numbers would be hard to come by, but we can try surmise.

 

No reason why we can't talk about it.

Is it such a problem that we cannot point out issues and what caused them? Because quite frankly, a lot of what I've been reading is user error of what consist of bad loads among other things.

 

But in any event, lets try expose why and what happen that may have caused it. It has already been pointed out that hierarchy people forced a company down a bad road. Lets expand on that.

 

For what its worth, your already damning the subject but 20 flavors of snow is somewhat ok? I'm trying to have decent conversation here. If it bothers anyone, please do not partake. Maybe we'll even learn something for a change. So lets try it.

 

 

 

 

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[bhunted 887]

This is what I'm looking for. Keep it coming.

 

Ron Cohen, the CEO of Sig, was formerly the CEO of Kimber. He started Kimber down the MIM path as well as the volume over quality business model - didn't matter if the gun runs, as long as it is on the store shelves so someone can buy it.

 

He left Kimber and went to Sig in 2004 where he brought the same crappy business model to his new business.

 

Now you have all the silly models and a company that puts out a product that by all accounts is inferior to what they made prior to 2004.

 

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[Purple Patrick 638]

Well I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring here. I consider myself a knife officianado and participate in one of the largest knife forums in the world. Now you want to talk people who despise company's and make massive blanket statements then jump on there. It gets to the point to where I stop reading threads because of the blatant fan boyism.

 

Now comes along a really sleek looking knife that really caught my eye and I had to have it so I order one and post about if on said forum. Without knowing it I had purchased it from a company that basically everyone hates due to past issues that really didn't concern me because a. I liked the knife b. If you put out a quality product I can look the other way on some past moral issues. Well after a few pages of bashing the company despite none of the people ever owning or fondling said knife I received it in the mail.

 

Total piece of crap... it had a major design flaw that is completely unnoticeable unless you have the knife in your hand. Now don't get me wrong if this was a cheap knife I would have modified it myself because it was a pretty easy fix but I'm not going to Dremel a couple hundred dollar knife when I can easily return it and get something else.

 

So I return it to the retailer I bought it from no questions asked and ordered a knife from a proven reputable company with years of experience and a dedicated fan base. While doing so I figured I would email the company with my suggestions on how to improve the knife very easily so that it is an actual relevant folder in the modern tactical world. They didn't even dignify me with a response.

 

So while I agree blanket statements can harm an otherwise decent company, it also goes to show that some generalizations can save someone a major headache whether it's guns ,knives, restaurants and people... hell basically anything in this world

 

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[bhunted 887]

What are we talking about? Kabooms? Can and will happen with any brand of pistol... Lemons happen. Sometimes it's operator error. That kB'd Glock? Could have been a stress fracture from the factory, or it could have ben 18 grains of WW231. Exploded Colt... could have been poor heat treating, or a 180 gr bullet seated flush in a .38 case. A lot easier to folks blame the manufacturer than it is to admit a user screw-up.

I agree. There is quite a bit of it too. I've been reading all kinds of articles last couple days and its a hot topic.

 

 

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[Purple Patrick 638]

To add to my last post I would never buy a kimber. If I want mim parts I'll save my money and buy a rock island

 

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[bhunted 887]

Well I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring here. I consider myself a knife officianado and participate in one of the largest knife forums in the world. Now you want to talk people who despise company's and make massive blanket statements then jump on there. It gets to the point to where I stop reading threads because of the blatant fan boyism.

 

Now comes along a really sleek looking knife that really caught my eye and I had to have it so I order one and post about if on said forum. Without knowing it I had purchased it from a company that basically everyone hates due to past issues that really didn't concern me because a. I liked the knife b. If you put out a quality product I can look the other way on some past moral issues. Well after a few pages of bashing the company despite none of the people ever owning or fondling said knife I received it in the mail.

 

Total piece of crap... it had a major design flaw that is completely unnoticeable unless you have the knife in your hand. Now don't get me wrong if this was a cheap knife I would have modified it myself because it was a pretty easy fix but I'm not going to Dremel a couple hundred dollar knife when I can easily return it and get something else.

 

So I return it to the retailer I bought it from no questions asked and ordered a knife from a proven reputable company with years of experience and a dedicated fan base. While doing so I figured I would email the company with my suggestions on how to improve the knife very easily so that it is an actual relevant folder in the modern tactical world. They didn't even dignify me with a response.

 

So while I agree blanket statements can harm an otherwise decent company, it also goes to show that some generalizations can save someone a major headache whether it's guns ,knives, restaurants and people... hell basically anything in this world

 

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Blanket statements usually come in short blurbs. Just look at any review. When someone is pist, the whole company sux. But when a statement is formed like that, at least show why.

 

 

 

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[bhunted 887]

Here is an old post from the THR forums.

It talks about MIM and the like.

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-3725.html

 

 

 

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[Purple Patrick 638]

Blanket statements usually come in short blurbs. Just look at any review. When someone is pist, the whole company sux. But when a statement is formed like that, at least show why.

 

 

 

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Well the issues people had with the knife company I'm talking about is that they are branded as made in America but the company won't provide details to where they are made and also thay they copied designs which honestly how many original knife designs are there really i mean come on its like plastic pistols they all sort of look the same. I over looked those issues because I liked the knife and didn't want to bash them before I even touched the knife. I whole heartedly admit it was a piece of crap based on a major design flaw (the opening mechanism) but I couldn't know that because nobody gave the company a chance. I did and I too was added to the list of disappointment

 

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[bhunted 887]

A comment from Wilson regarding mim....

 

One other thing I forgot to address. MIM parts. A company that I will not name gave the MIM parts a bad name because they had a bad batch of MIM parts. This was many years ago. Since then remarkable things have happened.

 

MIM parts are extremely dense and very exact. They are much less prone to wear and breakage than a factory Colt, Spfg. etc. part. This is why we use them in our CQB's, etc. Although not quite as hard as our tool steel parts, they will last a very long time. This is why we can still quarante our total gun, including the MIM parts, for life.

 

The tool steel parts are actually overkill. The MIM parts last for life (I know of one gun that has over 100,000 rounds thru it and the trigger pull feels the same as it did when new) therefore I guess you could say the tool steel parts lasts for a lifetime and ½.

 

We use the tool steel parts in our full custom guns. (These are the ones that cost from $2800.00 up) Our full custom guns, Stealth, Tactical Elite, Super Grade and Tactical Super Grade, are not for everyone because of price. They are intended for someone that can afford the very best we can do.

 

They [tool steel] actually won't last any longer, shoot any straighter or be more dependable than our CQB's, Protectors and Classics, but we spend many extra hours in fitting and prepping them for a perfect cosmetic handgun as well as a great shooter. And because of this, we use the tool steel parts that take longer to fit.

 

Again, all of us guys here, including Bill Wilson use the very same MIM parts in our guns. And we shoot a bunch! Once installed and fit, no one can tell the difference in the feel of the trigger pull with either type of parts.

 

Ok, I'm done with my book. Hope this helps too. Just didn't want you all to believe everything you read from self appointed experts.

 

Frank Robbins Wilson Combat

 

 

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

I keep hearing how sig quality has gone down, but I've read nothing but jargon about MIM parts. Most guns now aren't just MIM but they have plastic parts aswell and are just fine.

[bhunted 887]

I keep hearing how sig quality has gone down, but I've read nothing but jargon about MIM parts. Most guns now aren't just MIM but they have plastic parts aswell and are just fine.

Hell, some Kimbers have plastic main spring housings and work fine.

Technology always changes. What use to fail has been improved. Do companies cut corners? Sure.... But I'd like to think they would not risk someones health or life. If technology never changed, we'd never have any poly guns.

 

 

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[n4p226r 105]

MIM or plastic parts are cheaper but they can be executed correctly. My sig p229 Classic 22 had a plastic guide rod. The end of the spring was cutting into the guide rod causing the slide to cycle too slow and fail to work properly. Add that to the fact that the ejector fell out of the barrel multiple times and I had to send it back.

[High Exposure 5,661]

So you are saying that you've seen 3 and that is just cause to damn them? You just mentioned its anecdotal but isn't that your story too?

Numbers would be hard to come by, but we can try surmise.

 

No reason why we can't talk about it.

Is it such a problem that we cannot point out issues and what caused them? Because quite frankly, a lot of what I've been reading is user error of what consist of bad loads among other things.

 

But in any event, lets try expose why and what happen that may have caused it. It has already been pointed out that hierarchy people forced a company down a bad road. Lets expand on that.

 

For what its worth, your already damning the subject but 20 flavors of snow is somewhat ok? I'm trying to have decent conversation here. If it bothers anyone, please do not partake. Maybe we'll even learn something for a change. So lets try it.

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It was 4 catastrophic failures - none were ammo related - and I was personally there for each of them. I inspected the pieces and the ammo and knew the shooters. I didn't pull the trigger, but I watched it happen - that's a little better than anecdotal. The reason to "damn them" is that I have not seen another brand of pistol have that many failures of that type ever (I did see one friend's Springfield XD eat itself at a steel comp).

 

I have seen maybe 20-25 Kimbers at classes. 4 of them shit the bed in spectacular fashion. That's a pretty big percentage. I have seen more Glocks fail, but I have seen exponentially more Glocks on the line. More importantly, each failure was traced back to something relatively benign that was easily fixed.

 

Whether you believe it, or not, is up to the reader.

 

There are even more failures that I have heard about from what I consider impeccable sources, but it is second-hand so I don't include them in my recounting of Kimber failure events. However,I believe them, and they go towards my decision making process. The sources are highly regarded instructors that oversee hundreds of thousands of rounds fired downrange from hundreds of shooters over the course of a year. While not exactly scientific, they cover a pretty good sampling and have a decent data set that they keep meticulous notes on. One instructor's comment was "I wouldn't take a free Kimber if it came with a blowjob" while another states he would "Rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a Kimber in my holster before a gunfight".

 

In any event, my opinion is to avoid Kimber. If the topic comes up, that's what I am going to say. It is based on personal observations, and the observations from people I trust. Most importantly it is based on how I interpret the info I have on hand.

 

In the end it is up to the buyer/end-user to make an informed decision before purchase. They can research - or not. It's their money so it is on them. If a specific question is asked - you asked what relationship Kimber and Sig had - I will answer it. Otherwise, you get my opinion, and it is worth what you paid for it.

 

I am not going to give a 3 page dissertation citing sources with footnotes on why I don't like Kimber. I am not going to rehash all of this each time the topic comes up. It is an internet forum, not a college class.

[bhunted 887]

It was 4 catastrophic failures - none were ammo related - and I was personally there for each of them. I inspected the pieces and the ammo and knew the shooters. I didn't pull the trigger, but I watched it happen - that's a little better than anecdotal. The reason to "damn them" is that I have not seen another brand of pistol have that many failures of that type ever (I did see one friend's Springfield XD eat itself at a steel comp).

 

I have seen maybe 20-25 Kimbers at classes. 4 of them shit the bed in spectacular fashion. That's a pretty big percentage. I have seen more Glocks fail, but I have seen exponentially more Glocks on the line. More importantly, each failure was traced back to something relatively benign that was easily fixed.

 

Whether you believe it, or not, is up to the reader.

 

In the end it is up to the buyer/end-user to make an informed decision before purchase. They can research - or not. It's their money so it is on them. If a specific question is asked - you asked what relationship Kimber and Sig had - I will answer it. Otherwise, you get my opinion, and it is worth what you paid for it.

 

I am not going to give a 3 page dissertation citing sources with footnotes on why I don't like Kimber. I am not going to rehash all of this each time the topic comes up. It is an internet forum, not a college class.

Rick, you know I respect you and I consider you my friend. But sometimes, the fine lines between your sentences makes me scratch my head.

 

First, I never said I don't believe you. Your observations warrant your opinion.

 

What gets me scratching is your percentage of seen failures between 2 brands and not giving one the benefit of the doubt. But no problem. I buy it.

 

By all means, elaborate on Sig vs Kimber... I have no problem with factual dialog no matter what you or others think. I love learning.

 

As far as dissertations every time a subject comes up, well...your willingness to answer people's questions redundantly over and over rather than just point them to a very informant thread, ie slings, flashlights, etc. show me you -are- willing to repeat things. You are guilty on numerous occasions. Too many to count.

Psychologically I know why you do that. You ARE passionate in what you believe. You share your real world experiences and I think that is great. I am passionate about my beliefs too, but always open minded as well.

 

Last sentence....hmm...a forum, not a collage class. Read my paragraph just above this sentence starting with As far as... again...

 

And wasn't it you a long time ago who said to me, I should try help people to understand and not give up due to getting frustrated? Its our duty?

 

 

 

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

Normally, I wouldn't stick my head in a convo like this but here's my experience tracking a pistol which saw some revisions rather quickly after is production. The P938 wasn't out nearly a year before it had terrible failures with the ejector and cycling rounds. Within a year sig had the problem fixed. The MIM debate IMO is on quality. After the revisions to the pistol were made these failure nearly dissolved. I Believe they upgraded the extractor and recoil spring. I'm pretty sure its still a MIM part though.

 

 

Kimbers have some bad stigma for some reason. Even when I was researching them I would find an equally amount of positive and negative reviews with reliability. It was enough to scare me away.

 

Personally, I think gun manufactures skimp in some really important areas of firearms. It wouldn't kill them to have cut steel for things like the extractor.

 

MIM parts require a much higher level of QC, but the companies already cut corners going MIM to begin with.

[bhunted 887]

Normally, I wouldn't stick my head in a convo like this but here's my experience tracking a pistol which saw some revisions rather quickly after is production. The P938 wasn't out nearly a year before it had terrible failures with the ejector and cycling rounds. Within a year sig had the problem fixed. The MIM debate IMO is on quality. After the revisions to the pistol were made these failure nearly dissolved. I Believe they upgraded the extractor and recoil spring. I'm pretty sure its still a MIM part though.

 

 

Kimbers have some bad stigma for some reason. Even when I was researching them I would find an equally amount of positive and negative reviews with reliability. It was enough to scare me away.

 

Personally, I think gun manufactures skimp in some really important areas of firearms. It wouldn't kill them to have cut steel for things like the extractor.

 

MIM parts require a much higher level of QC, but the companies already cut corners going MIM to begin with.

Dunno if you read the blurb I posted above from Wilson regarding MIM... Maybe you can elaborate on that. I'm no metallurgist, but willing to chat about it and possibly learn.

 

 

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[Old School 611]

It was 4 catastrophic failures - none were ammo related - and I was personally there for each of them. I inspected the pieces and the ammo and knew the shooters. I didn't pull the trigger, but I watched it happen - that's a little better than anecdotal. The reason to "damn them" is that I have not seen another brand of pistol have that many failures of that type ever (I did see one friend's Springfield XD eat itself at a steel comp).

 

I have seen maybe 20-25 Kimbers at classes. 4 of them shit the bed in spectacular fashion. That's a pretty big percentage. I have seen more Glocks fail, but I have seen exponentially more Glocks on the line. More importantly, each failure was traced back to something relatively benign that was easily fixed.

 

Whether you believe it, or not, is up to the reader.

 

There are even more failures that I have heard about from what I consider impeccable sources, but it is second-hand so I don't include them in my recounting of Kimber failure events. However,I believe them, and they go towards my decision making process. The sources are highly regarded instructors that oversee hundreds of thousands of rounds fired downrange from hundreds of shooters over the course of a year. While not exactly scientific, they cover a pretty good sampling and have a decent data set that they keep meticulous notes on. One instructor's comment was "I wouldn't take a free Kimber if it came with a blowjob" while another states he would "Rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a Kimber in my holster before a gunfight".

 

In any event, my opinion is to avoid Kimber. If the topic comes up, that's what I am going to say. It is based on personal observations, and the observations from people I trust. Most importantly it is based on how I interpret the info I have on hand.

 

In the end it is up to the buyer/end-user to make an informed decision before purchase. They can research - or not. It's their money so it is on them. If a specific question is asked - you asked what relationship Kimber and Sig had - I will answer it. Otherwise, you get my opinion, and it is worth what you paid for it.

 

I am not going to give a 3 page dissertation citing sources with footnotes on why I don't like Kimber. I am not going to rehash all of this each time the topic comes up. It is an internet forum, not a college class.

 

H E - #1 I'm not a Kimber fan period.  I've posted my reasons previously

 

But until you site the cause of the failures, your posts are not credible in my eyes.

 

Where are the weak spots?

 

Are the sears or disconnectors failing?  Are they firing out of battery?  Are they shooting GOOD factory ammo? Was a squib involved?

 

Spit it out !!! What's failing.

 

Higgins tell us...

[n4p226r 105]

Dunno if you read the blurb I posted above from Wilson regarding MIM... Maybe you can elaborate on that. I'm no metallurgist, but willing to chat about it and possibly learn.

 

 

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kimbers have a bad reputation because they are the "company that I will not name gave the MIM parts a bad name because they had a bad batch of MIM parts." that wilson was talking about.  there is nothing bad about using Cast, MIM, Billet, or Forged parts wherever it makes sense.   MIM parts actually make sense in a gun where you would want clean precision (like the hammer/sear interaction services).   especially in a 1911 where i'd imagine there is more time spent fitting those parts on a tool steel setup vs a glock that is just plug and play with parts.  it's the companies that screw it up.    Sig, a brand known for it's quality, switched more and more parts to MIM and eventually had weird extraction issues.   sure, they fixed it after a bit, but it makes you wonder why they went from a perfectly proven design to a MIM design that didn't work as well at first.  It didn't allow them to lower their prices any last i checked.  

[bhunted 887]

kimbers have a bad reputation because they are the "company that I will not name gave the MIM parts a bad name because they had a bad batch of MIM parts." that wilson was talking about. there is nothing bad about using Cast, MIM, Billet, or Forged parts wherever it makes sense. MIM parts actually make sense in a gun where you would want clean precision (like the hammer/sear interaction services). especially in a 1911 where i'd imagine there is more time spent fitting those parts on a tool steel setup vs a glock that is just plug and play with parts. it's the companies that screw it up. Sig, a brand known for it's quality, switched more and more parts to MIM and eventually had weird extraction issues. sure, they fixed it after a bit, but it makes you wonder why they went from a perfectly proven design to a MIM design that didn't work as well at first. It didn't allow them to lower their prices any last i checked.

Gotchya.... I can only suspect, like everything else, money....

 

 

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[302w 83]

MIM sucks because people associate them with a cheaper made product. S&W being a prime example, their older revolvers are of a nicer fit and finish than their newer MIM products. The nicer gun doesn't have MIM parts so MIM must be garbage. Often the MIM part is adequate enough but is packaged with cheaper processes as well as part of an overall cost saving strategy.

 

Also the world wouldn't end if 870Ps had MIM extractors like the cheap line but forged is a selling point. If Remington didn't advertise the forged bits in 870Ps then nobody would fret about the MIM bits in their express.

 

I thought MIM was some powdered metal garbage but I was surprised at it's qualities when learning about it in college. That being said I don't like the new S&W revolvers.

[diamondd817 826]

Sounds like somebody's got their Kimbers in a bunch.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

MIM sucks because people associate them with a cheaper made product. S&W being a prime example, their older revolvers are of a nicer fit and finish than their newer MIM products. The nicer gun doesn't have MIM parts so MIM must be garbage. Often the MIM part is adequate enough but is packaged with cheaper processes as well as part of an overall cost saving strategy.

 

Also the world wouldn't end if 870Ps had MIM extractors like the cheap line but forged is a selling point. If Remington didn't advertise the forged bits in 870Ps then nobody would fret about the MIM bits in their express.

 

I thought MIM was some powdered metal garbage but I was surprised at it's qualities when learning about it in college. That being said I don't like the new S&W revolvers.

lol, yea,  your old Revolver is most likely hand fitted. Just like my wingmaster from the 70's. Most production guns barely see a living person on the assembly line these days.

 

My 625 has  MIM parts but you would be hard pressed to make it any better by simply switching out something for a tooled part without fitting said part.

[High Exposure 5,661]

H E - #1 I'm not a Kimber fan period. I've posted my reasons previously

 

But until you site the cause of the failures, your posts are not credible in my eyes.

 

Where are the weak spots?

 

Are the sears or disconnectors failing? Are they firing out of battery? Are they shooting GOOD factory ammo? Was a squib involved?

 

Spit it out !!! What's failing.

 

Higgins tell us...

From the other thread:

I have seen 3 eat themselves on the line in moderate round count trainjng classes. The instructor in each class stated that wasn't the first Kimber he saw sale destruct. I'm not talking Kaboom, I'm talking parts of the gun falling/flying off the frame while shooting, one locked up so bad he needed a hammer to get the slide all the way back. One shooter dropped a mag and all these small metal bits fell out. I also saw one self destruct in training I was giving. The factory front sight flew off, the ambi safety broke and the trigger connector broke. He spent more than he initially paid getting the gun up and running. He ended up replaced every part except the frame.

I am not a huge 1911 guy so I couldn't diagnose the exact cause of the malfunction and subsequent breakage. They were also not my guns so I didn't go home and study them.

 

I do know that they were all stock guns with very low round counts. They were properly maintained, cleaned, and lubed. They were all shooting quality factory ammo that was purchased by their Dept and shared by other shooters on the line with no one else having any issues - including other 1911 shooters. Each gun experienced small parts breakage of the internals and control surfaces. The frame, barrel, and slide appeared undamaged.

 

The worst (best?) one was like a cartoon. It was a Kimber Desert Warrior and it was brand new. The shooter just kept banging away and bits kept flying off until the gun locked up. Safety, front sight, takedown lever, safety plunger....

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Dunno if you read the blurb I posted above from Wilson regarding MIM... Maybe you can elaborate on that. I'm no metallurgist, but willing to chat about it and possibly learn.

 

 

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MIM parts structurally are different then tooled parts. Just like wood has a grain, so does metal. Any cast part lacks a true grain, which would  give increased strength...  As a result cast parts are more brittle, imperfections in the molding process can make them terribly brittle.

 

When these companies had to keep up with demand the cost to switch over to MIM was cheaper than buying new forging presses and molds.

 

Forged parts have a true grain, and if done correctly the grain takes on the shape of the object. If its CNC'd then the grain is planar and its weakness is splitting along the grain, cracking. Its much harder to crack this type. A press formed part requires much more machining after as well.

[Old School 611]

From the other thread:

 

I am not a huge 1911 guy so I couldn't diagnose the exact cause of the malfunction and subsequent breakage. They were also not my guns so I didn't go home and study them.

 

I do know that they were all stock guns with very low round counts. They were properly maintained, cleaned, and lubed. They were all shooting quality factory ammo that was purchased by their Dept and shared by other shooters on the line with no one else having any issues - including other 1911 shooters. Each gun experienced small parts breakage of the internals and control surfaces. The frame, barrel, and slide appeared undamaged.

 

The worst (best?) one was like a cartoon. It was a Kimber Desert Warrior and it was brand new. The shooter just kept banging away and bits kept flying off until the gun locked up. Safety, front sight, takedown lever, safety plunger....

 

H E - This is not directed specifically at you but a general statement about this thread.  I've done failure analysis for a living and I haven't seen one bit of credible fact, including from you in this BS thread.

 

We know Glocks failed from unsupported chambers and some weak cases.

We know Glocks failed due to MIM Extractors.

 

Why are these Kimbers failing?

 

Edit at the request of the OP:  It's not that the thread objective is BS but the lack of facts make posters opinions BS.

[bhunted 887]

MIM parts structurally are different then tooled parts. Just like wood has a grain, so does metal. Any cast part lacks a true grain, which would give increased strength... As a result cast parts are more brittle, imperfections in the molding process can make them terribly brittle.

 

When these companies had to keep up with demand the cost to switch over to MIM was cheaper than buying new forging presses and molds.

 

Forged parts have a true grain, and if done correctly the grain takes on the shape of the object. If its CNC'd then the grain is planar and its weakness is splitting along the grain, cracking. Its much harder to crack this type. A press formed part requires much more machining after as well.

Interesting. See? We, (I), am learning something.

Thank you.

 

 

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